Another Amp for AR 3's

[LouB]

How lucky you are.

Radio is sadly pretty poor in most parts of the states. 

If NPR isn't ones cup of tea, that leaves just one classical and one low power jazz in Chicagoland.

Rock is limited to the top 100 compressed as hell and the other chicago's finest rock station.

Forty years ago there was a significantly greater variety in this market  and from what I've noticed it's about the same everywhere else.

 

[samberger0357]

In SF and surrounding area, we have a couple of excellent jazz stations, a very good classical station, a community station that has a multitude of great shows from jazz to oldies, r'n'b to vintage reggae/ska, 3 public stations that on weekends have all kinds of specialty music shows ranging from folk to bluegrass, old tine country to vintage soul to roots r'n'r. Plus several good college stations. So lots to indulge in. 

 

[ar_pro]

Nice catch on your new McIntosh, Sam, that classic black & silver looks great. I think you have a later model receiver, with the loudness switch concentric with the balance control.

In that era, Mac was famous for their tuners, and their tuner/preamps and receivers had the same pedigree. And tube tuners just sound different, don't they?

We're lucky with FM in this area; completely excluding the commercial broadcasters, there are great music stations at Penn (WXPN) and Temple (WRTI) that produce most of their own content, as well as Princeton's WPRB which is wild & eclectic, covering more music types than any single radio station I've ever encountered. All three have excellent signals, and even sound pretty good on their internet streams. And sometimes it's nice to let someone else choose the music, right?

[JKent]

1 hour ago, samberger0357 said:

In SF and surrounding area, we have a couple of excellent jazz stations, a very good classical station, a community station that has a multitude of great shows from jazz to oldies, r'n'b to vintage reggae/ska, 3 public stations that on weekends have all kinds of specialty music shows ranging from folk to bluegrass, old tine country to vintage soul to roots r'n'r. Plus several good college stations. So lots to indulge in. 

 

A little OT but I had to vent. It's appalling to me that here in the NYC metro area there is a grand total of ONE classical station and ONE jazz station. And the jazz station is in Newark NJ! Can you imagine NO jazz station in New York City?!

OK--I just fact checked myself and there is "smooth jazz" (aka elevator music) station in NYC. Discouraging.

I've resorted to internet radio--not only because of the dearth of good stations but also because reception is poor here in Appalachia. Most of the internet radio is just MP3 quality but there's a LOT of it! Pandora's Miles Davis station is usually on in my shop area.

Sorry for the rant.

Kent

[samberger0357]

Yup it is a later model.  Good eye!  It also has the push terminals for the speaker outputs, as opposed to the screws on the earlier versions. 

 

I think there is good radio(meaning locally programmed, real jocks, etc.) in most places around this country, but one has to be willing to look for it. Usually if you have a college nearby that will provide a good start. Of course there's always internet radio but using a real tuner is a treat, imo. 

[samberger0357]

7 minutes ago, JKent said:

A little OT but I had to vent. It's appalling to me that here in the NYC metro area there is a grand total of ONE classical station and ONE jazz station. And the jazz station is in Newark NJ! Can you imagine NO jazz station in New York City?!

OK--I just fact checked myself and there is "smooth jazz" (aka elevator music) station in NYC. Discouraging.

I've resorted to internet radio--not only because of the dearth of good stations but also because reception is poor here in Appalachia. Most of the internet radio is just MP3 quality but there's a LOT of it! Pandora's Miles Davis station is usually on in my shop area.

Sorry for the rant.

Kent

Do you know about, or ever listen to WKCR,  Columbia University's station? They have a ton of fantastic jazz programming, some of their shows are some of the longest running in the NYC area. I haven't listened to their classical offerings but I would think they do well there too. 

https://www.cc-seas.columbia.edu/wkcr/

[onplane]

4 hours ago, JKent said:

A little OT but I had to vent. It's appalling to me that here in the NYC metro area there is a grand total of ONE classical station and ONE jazz station. And the jazz station is in Newark NJ! Can you imagine NO jazz station in New York City?!

OK--I just fact checked myself and there is "smooth jazz" (aka elevator music) station in NYC. Discouraging.

I've resorted to internet radio--not only because of the dearth of good stations but also because reception is poor here in Appalachia. Most of the internet radio is just MP3 quality but there's a LOT of it! Pandora's Miles Davis station is usually on in my shop area.

Sorry for the rant.

Kent

Kent, like you jazz is my clear favorite. I enjoy the 2 Dish CD quality jazz channels plus the 2 Sirius channels broadcast on Dish that are strictly jazz. The Sirius channels are not the same stream as the 'compressed' signal directed to car radios. The Dish CD channels are strictly music while the Sirius Channels will on occasion have DJ's introducing the artists and tracks. All of these sources are commercial free.

 

Regards,

Jerry

[DavidDru]

purchased a very Nice Sansui Tu-7900 tuner earlier this year to be able to do FM well.  Use it a little but in boise we only get a few hour here and there of Jazz with most on at odd-ball hours.  Frustrating for sure and like you said AR-pro, woul dbe nice to let someone else pick the music every now and then and introduce me to something.

 

I am about %75 streaming these days with Spotify premium.  My selections have built up well enough that my Discover area does well now to introduce me to other similar stuff fortunately.

[samberger0357]

I enjoy streaming too. It's how I can listen to great radio outside my area, like the aforementioned WKCR. But lI have a good roof top antenna and being able to listen to quality stations through a good tuner(preferably tube) is a real treat.

[samberger0357]

I enjoy streaming too. It's how I can listen to great radio outside my area, like the aforementioned WKCR. But lI have a good roof top antenna and being able to listen to quality stations through a good tuner(preferably tube) is a real treat.

[JeffS]

19 hours ago, ar_pro said:

And sometimes it's nice to let someone else choose the music, right?

 

7 hours ago, DavidDru said:

purchased a very Nice Sansui Tu-7900 tuner earlier this year to be able to do FM well.  Use it a little but in boise we only get a few hour here and there of Jazz with most on at odd-ball hours.

Here in upstate NY we have an NPR station out of the University of Rochester (WRUR-FM at 88.5) playing a wide variety of DJ'ed shows such as blues, R&B, early rock, jazz, etc. The shows do stream live and I wanted to be able to listen later so I went old school and picked up a Hi-Fi VCR for time shifting. Good sound quality and 6 hours of recording time.

[samberger0357]

Here's an example of the unique jazz programming that WKCR offers either locally in NYC or streaming worldwide:

 

https://www.cc-seas.columbia.edu/wkcr/story/roy-eldridge-birthday-broadcast-1?platform=hootsuite

[DavidR]

If you like jazz then give WICN a listen. 90.5FM out of Worcester, MA and they do stream it over the internet.

Over the air signal is NOT stereo but it is thru the internet.

[onplane]

6 hours ago, JeffS said:

 

Here in upstate NY have an NPR station out o f the University of Rochester (WRUR-FM at 88.5) playing a wide variety of DJ'ed shows such as blues, R&B, early rock, jazz, etc. The shows do stream live and I wanted to be able to listen later so I went old school and picked up a Hi-Fi VCR for time shifting. Good sound quality and 6 hours of recording time.

 Jeff, I just tuned in WRUR and they were playing ... country!  I guess they really do have a "wide variety". My favorite FM station is WGMC - 90.1 as they play easily 90% jazz.  Now they also stream, but recently had a problem with all Android devices.

To be honest though none of the FM stations can compete with the sound quality of Dish's satellite signals. Then with Dish I get to choose from 4 pure jazz channels, plus another 4 "near jazz" and everything is totally commercial free.

Regards,

Jerry

[samberger0357]

KCSM in the Bay Area is 100% commercial free jazz. New and old. Real dj's, individually curated. 3rd largest jazz library in the country. kcsm.org

[JKent]

OK. Back on topic.

Any thoughts about the McIntosh MC-502? http://stereonomono.blogspot.com/2014/06/mcintosh-mc-502.html

I know the 3a likes a lot of power. Right now i'm using an AR receiver, which is rated at 60 watts RMS into 4 ohms or 30w into 8 ohms. The Mac is rated 75w into 4 ohms, 50w into 8 ohms. A little more powerful but not a "super amp." I'm using an Adcom 555/II with my AR-91s.

I was looking for a bigger amp for the 3a's but I want something more-or-less vintage and Made in the USA. Was tempted by a Bose 1801 but the one that caught my attention obviously needs work and as I understand it some parts are unobtainium.

Asked my tech, who happens to be an authorized Mac service center to keep an eye out for a nice powerful amp. He mentioned he had a Mac that's 300wpc but it was beyond my budget. The 502 is a bit more than I had hoped to pay but I know it is in perfect condition, the tech will stand behind it if anything goes wrong, and it has the walnut case, which I happen to like (any equipment with a real wood cabinet lights up my board).

So. Thoughts? I don't plan to blast the 3a's but I want to be sure the amp has the balls they need. btw--the preamp will be DB Systems DB-1A with DB-5 tone controls.

Thanks.

-Kent

[samberger0357]

Well if my recent experience with the 1700 is any indicator, I'd say it might be worth at least trying out. With Mac's, it's usually a good bet that you'll get back at least what you buy it for assuming it's a good price. I don't know if you visit Audio Asylum or know the name Michael Samra, but he's a regular over at the vintage forums over there, and well known for his restoration expertise. He confirmed that he also has been able to easily drive his 3a' s with the 1700. Also, my Mac 4100 (100 watts into 4 ohms) had no issue whatsoever driving both the 3's/3a's simultaneously. So while I don't necessarily think that you would hear a lot of difference, if any, in the slightly higher power that the 502 would give over the AR, I would be quite surprised if you found it running out of gas with the 3a's. 

[ar_pro]

Kent - I think McIntosh amplifiers are generally outstanding with acoustic suspension-type speakers; however, my preference is for those Mac amps that use autoformers, and this would not include the MC502.

For a significant upgrade from your classic AR amplifier, I'd suggest any of their larger amplifiers beginning with the MC2205, and including the MC2255 and MC7270. These were all the top-of-the-line models when current, and have actually gone up in value over the past few years. But be forewarned: very few people stop with one piece of McIntosh gear.

Both Audio Classics and mcintoshaudio.com frequently have these guys available in certified condition.

But have you tried your 555II with the AR-3's? That combination should sound pretty good!

[samberger0357]

19 minutes ago, ar_pro said:

For a significant upgrade from your classic AR amplifier, I'd suggest any of their larger amplifiers beginning with the MC2205, and including the MC2255 and MC7270.

Great amps, and no doubt would sound great with the 3a's,  but also significantly more expensive then the MC502. 

 

21 minutes ago, ar_pro said:

But have you tried your 555II with the AR-3's? That combination should sound pretty good!

Agreed! My GFA 5400 sounded terrific with mine. 

[JKent]

20 minutes ago, samberger0357 said:

my Mac 4100 (100 watts into 4 ohms) had no issue whatsoever driving both the 3's/3a's simultaneously.

Good to hear. I had a 4100 for a while. Actually did a complete recap following Whaleman's lead (see "4100 under the knife" on AK). I did use it with the 3a's but ultimately decided to sell it. I just like separates (don't know why I bought the AR receiver, except that it's AR).

ar_pro: I have not tried the 555/II with the 3a's because it works well with the 91s.

Just now, samberger0357 said:

Great amps, and no doubt would sound great with the 3a's,  but also significantly more expensive then the MC502. 

Yeah--I don't want to go overboard.

[frankmarsi]

I've heard that Adcoms have a soft sounding high end compared to other amplifiers. I've also read that MAC amps have a somewhat soft top end too. Mac products are now owned by a foreign concern. And even though they're made here, they're no longer an American owned company if that matters to you Kent? For me, I only have foreign made cartridges, tone arms and turntables because those items generally speaking, are not made in America,

So, a soft top sounding amp plus muted top end sounding speakers do not make any sense to me or to any one else who has a top sounding system, the 'synergy' is way off.

Speaking for myself, I haven't used anything less than 200+ watts per channel for over 43+ years now. This talk of anything less is just not how to go about maximum listener pleasure, it's merely attempting to defend what some one has bought for whatever reasons. To me, 250+ watts per-side for AR-3a's and 360+ watts per-side for AR-LST's is the only way to go and most of the folks who know this would hands-down agree, and those watt ratings are at 8 ohms!

To go back to anything less is lacking in real Hi-Fi knowledge. In 2009, I bought into over 360+ per-channel at 8 ohms/550+ watts per-channel at 4 ohms, with clipping at about 700+ per-channel and I don't ever wonder if crazily changing amps back and forth is going to make a difference. I simply sit back and listen to music now and for ever more have no reason to ponder those thoughts as my amp/speaker set-up are the 'constant' and are fully and maximally dialed-in! There are a few here who might be learning and push lower power but, that's because they never had really high power. Again, defending their misguided choices.

My amplifiers as are my speakers, the standard bearers, I don't switch this around for that, and that kind of silly thing, there's no need to. I learned 50 years ago when I was first learning about hi-fi gear that high-power was the road to take, for the last 40 years 100watts per side is passe and a minor amount that will not afford enough power for transients, peaks, crescendos, etc. etc. Please, no excuses like "well, I only listen at low levels" as that has no bearing here with low efficiency speakers.

Now, the only change is the program-material that I'm listening to along with a yearly upgrade of a newer and better phono cartridge which happens to be the most fun and it affords the most noticeable changes.

At my present age, there are more years behind me than are ahead of me, I don't struggle with second rate dreams. Jump in and splurge on yourself, as there is only a limited time to do this in.

If you are seeking real change, make a used/rebuilt high-watt amp a constant along with your AR speakers, supply a real good turntable and arm combo, buy a good used and qualified step-up trans. and a "Lyra Delos" cartridge and do like the saying goes, 'listen to the music'.

You'll spend less time on this site and the web while immersing yourself in the true meaning of enjoyment from a properly set-up and well put together system.

FM

[samberger0357]

15 minutes ago, frankmarsi said:

I've heard that Adcoms have a soft sounding high end compared to other amplifiers.

Not true. 

21 minutes ago, frankmarsi said:

I've also read that MAC amps have a somewhat soft top end too.

Not true

30 minutes ago, frankmarsi said:

Mac products are now owned by a foreign concern. And even though they're made here, they're no longer an American owned company if that matters to you Kent?

Kind of irrelevant since we're talking about stuff built in the 70's/80's 

The rest of your comments are completely your opinion. High power is fine on the classic AR speakers, but moderate power works well too. Just depends on the listener's specific situation. Yes listening at mostly lower levels does matter. The kind of music, the listener's listening space, etc etc etc all matters. 

As for changing around amps and whatever else, why not? It's fun, gives one a chance to try different flavors. Staying with one set up for the rest of my life would be boring. Doesn't mean that I don't really enjoy my present set up, but why stop there?

BTW, I've owned Lyra carts, including the Delos, and the Kleos, and the mono Helikon.  Liked them all when using them on a VPI Super Scoutmaster at the time,  then sold them. Ultimately too clinical, not musical enough for me. Again, my opinion. 

 

 

 

[ar_pro]

I've heard that Adcoms have a soft sounding high end compared to other amplifiers. I've also read that MAC amps have a somewhat soft top end too.

Can you provide some sort of citation or reference for these statements?

 

Mac products are now owned by a foreign concern. And even though they're made here, they're no longer an American owned company if that matters to you Kent?

From Wikipedia: McIntosh Group (formerly Fine Sounds Group) is an American holding company specializing in high-end audio equipment and owns the brands McIntosh Laboratory, Audio Research, Sonus Faber, Wadia Digital, Sumiko and Fine Sounds Asia.

On the 9th of May 2014 Mauro Grange and Charlie Randall, president of McIntosh Laboratory, Inc., announced their plans for a management buyout of Fine Sounds Group in partnership with LBO France and Yarpa, including a relocation of the Head Quarters from Milan to New York.^[7]

On the 10th of August 2016 Fine Sounds Group was officially renamed McIntosh Group.

 

[DavidDru]

JKent,

Like you, I like separates for the most part, especially for when driving high current requiring speakers etc.  But, when trying to do separates that are also vintage with the type of power you want things can get a littel more difficult with what seems to be a limited assortment of options that can still hold their own with newer stuff.  But, I think i figured out a great solution.  Phase Linear.  A White Oak Phase Linear.

It has all the appeal and timeless quality of a vintage amp with meters, but as a White Oak re-build now has modern cutting edge innards.  More importantly, it sounds fantastic, is safe and you can hear a pin drop when it is on.   I have the PL400 version so it has something north of 200/ch.  There is also the 700.  It does not flinch on any of my speakers.  AR3, AR9, ADS L1590, ADS L910 etc.

You can typically find these already rebuilt and ready to go like I did on AK.  Or, you can find an original PL400 or 700 with good bones and do the work yourself. I saw one recently on Ebay selling for $650 I believe which was a great deal on the surface anyway.  You can get all the scoop here: http://forums.phxaudiotape.com/  or here:  http://www.whiteoakaudio.com/

Here is mine:

 

[samberger0357]

Beautiful amp.