Another Amp for AR 3's

[samberger0357]

Thanks. Kind of the confirmation I was looking for. I have KLH Model Six's, Wharfedale W60's and Dynaco A35's that I can also use with the 400, but there is something that is truly special about the 3's with tubes. I'm willing to sacrifice some dynamics for the overall presentation that wows me every time. 

[ra.ra]

Great comments from genek here. The idea of using one of the mag input jacks as a pre out is a very interesting idea, and the comments about the rationale that AR used for assigning recommended power ratings make a lot of sense with regards to simultaneous music and conversation.  

[samberger0357]

7 minutes ago, ra.ra said:

Great comments from genek here. The idea of using one of the mag input jacks as a pre out is a very interesting idea, and the comments about the rationale that AR used for assigning recommended power ratings make a lot of sense with regards to simultaneous music and conversation.  

Agreed. I have no idea how loud folks like to listen to on 200 watt amps, but I know when I throw my Yamaha M4, all 175 watts into the mix, I can barely get the preamp level above the 1st couple of notches before it gets too loud, especially for the wife. The 400 affords me much better control, and of course, the glory of the tubes. The wife is happy, and I find I lose nothing, or almost nothing, from a dynamic perspective. Perhaps the 400 isn't getting that big woofer to move as much as it would like, but it's a small sacrifice in my world. 

[iso]

1 hour ago, samberger0357 said:

Agreed. I have no idea how loud folks like to listen to on 200 watt amps, but I know when I throw my Yamaha M4, all 175 watts into the mix, I can barely get the preamp level above the 1st couple of notches before it gets too loud, especially for the wife. 

This tells very little about power capability of the amplifier... when volume pot is about 9´ o clock position at loud volumes, this means that that there is too much voltage gain in your amplifier. Ie 2 volt CD-player feeding 150 mV sensitivity line input and maybe maybe 2,5 V pre amp output feeding 1 V sensitivity power amp... this kind of system matching is not too good, as there is no point to amplify signal so much that it must be attenuated too much with volume control... ideal operating area for volume control  is at 12-3 o´clock. 

However... high power has was used quite often in 70´s -90´s  to hide system shortcomings.  If you think how you react when you find that something is not right in your rig, you either increase the volume or turn the whole thing off. Power seems to be such a thing that usually 2-15 wpc is enough for listening, but if this is not enough most likely 100 wpc will not solve "more power"-issue. 

I think that high power demo is the most brutal way to demo hifi, even I do like listen at quite high volumes myself. At least my wife thinks so.

Kimmo

[samberger0357]

38 minutes ago, iso said:

This tells very little about power capability of the amplifier... when volume pot is about 9´ o clock position at loud volumes, this means that that there is too much voltage gain in your amplifier. Ie 2 volt CD-player feeding 150 mV sensitivity line input and maybe maybe 2,5 V pre amp output feeding 1 V sensitivity power amp... this kind of system matching is not too good, as there is no point to amplify signal so much that it must be attenuated too much with volume control... ideal operating area for volume control  is at 12-3 o´clock. 

However... high power has was used quite often in 70´s -90´s  to hide system shortcomings.  If you think how you react when you find that something is not right in your rig, you either increase the volume or turn the whole thing off. Power seems to be such a thing that usually 2-15 wpc is enough for listening, but if this is not enough most likely 100 wpc will not solve "more power"-issue. 

I think that high power demo is the most brutal way to demo hifi, even I do like listen at quite high volumes myself. At least my wife thinks so.

Kimmo

As has been stated previously, ultimately it comes down to the individual, their listening preferences, and room size. For me, I find much better overall control and much more enjoyable experience with a 28 watt tube amp through the 3's then a 175 watt solid state. That's not to say I won't switch around from time to time, but I had forgotten how much I enjoyed the sound of a Fisher tube receiver through the AR3's. Quite spectacular and power and dynamics to spare. 

[Sonnar]

I 've used big SS vintage amps in the past years with my AR 3 and 3a , but I still remember the excellent sound my father had in early '60s with 35/35 watt of its Marantz 7c/8b drivin' his AR 3 ( the very early ones with gold thread grille! ) in a big room, 32 feet lenght , 18 width and 10 height , and the sound fulfil easily our living room. My current amplification is a modern , powerful professional power amp ( thank You for suggestion, Tom , You know AR speakers better than anyone ) surely the best SS amp I 've ever had in my home , but two years ago I had the opportunity to have two little, vintage tube amps: I bought it for my high efficiency Altecs , and I was thinking they 're too weak to drive AR speakers. I was very satisfied of the tube sound with horns, so I decided to try with my AR 3. Not transparent and detailed as the pro amp, not so powerful, not so dynamic, not so extended , but there is something  in the mid-range ........ plasticity, warmth , three-dimensional smoothness. The modern pro amp has an exceptionally smooth and sweet sound in the mid and high range , I' m a very demanding baroque music addicted, but tubes just have a slightly different timber , it seems to have some kind of different shades. Cheers, Adriano 

[samberger0357]

Thanks for for your welcome opinion Adriano. Transparency and detail aren't really that important to me, but rather over all presentation. Again, it must be that I have a small room, and don't need to listen very loudly. My sources perhaps have high enough voltage so as to provide a strong signal that doesn't require a lot of juice from the receiver. Whatever it is, I can't tell the difference, at least at lower levels, between my Fisher and my Crown XLS1000 or Yamaha M4. It may be there, but for me it's simply not noticeable enough to concern myself with it. 

[Sonnar]

I agree, I live in an apartment with a wife and two daughters, and I have a small room dedicated to recreational audio activities, and most of the times I play not over 90 db ( peak ) , so I don't have a real needs of high power amp. Even the tiny Knight KA-25 with 10 watts per channel from 6BM8 tubes gives a pleasurable sound at very moderate level in late evening listening , and I have a friend that drives usually his AR 3a with a '60s Leak Stereo 20 tubes power amp and believe me, the sound is excellent . 

[samberger0357]

And how many countless  audio enthusiasts over the years must've have traveled the same road as us listening to modestly powered amps with inefficient speakers and had a ball doing it?  Perhaps if I was 25 again, lived alone, and needed to blast myself into oblivion I would opt for more power(and probably different speakers) but those days are long gone for me, and the pleasure derived from my mid 60's set up doesn't fail to put a smile on my face. There is something positive to be said for again gracefully after all 

[Sonnar]

I was born listening through my father's AR speakers, and their sound delighted every day of my 56 years of life. The third pair of AR 3 is probably incoming this fall, a beautiful walnut pair , and I 'm still in search of a mahogany couple. When I was twenty years old I had a lot of hair and I had an Harley-Davidson 883 , and I eas listening music through AR speakers. Now I have very few hairs and I use a Fiat sedan car , but still listening music through AR speakers. 

[samberger0357]

Lovely remembrance. I grew up just a few miles from where they built AR speakers and turntables, and couldn't afford them. So I suppose owning and enjoying them now(yes, including my AR turntable) is a trip back in time for me, but a highly satisfying one. I look at them as pieces of art to be enjoyed now, and hopefully passed down to somebody who will value them as much as I do when the time comes. There are those that swear that they can do better with modern gear, that 50 year old stuff is obsolete and useless. So be it. It takes all kinds. I'm just happy I've reached my destination.  

[Sonnar]

Many people that says these are obsolete and useless gears have very poor knowledge of real music by acoustical instruments. My wife's cousin , 32 years old, is a classical violinist from the Auditorium of Rome's Orchestra, and has obviously a certain experience in real music. He says modern hi-fi equipment are spectacular but very far to the real music , but when he listened to my AR 3 he said " now this is the best reproduction of strings I 've ever heard , it's an excellent illusion. " 

[Sonnar]

Unfortunately I haven't an AR Xa or Xb turntable , my father had one 50 years ago. But I still have an AR Amplifier in excellent conditions . It' s a good amp , but modern SS amps are much better sounding and so are ol' vintage tubes , so I still have it for preservation. 

[samberger0357]

That's a beauty, and high on my wish list. 

[samberger0357]

Decided to join the McIntosh club and picked up a 4100 receiver to drive the 3's. Good times. 

 

[ar_pro]

Very pretty...details, please!

Owner's & Service manuals, as well as a brochure and the High Fidelity magazine test report for the MC4100 are here: http://www.berners.ch/McIntosh/en/Frame_McIntosh.htm

 

[owlsplace]

23 minutes ago, samberger0357 said:

Good times. 

Nice

[samberger0357]

25 minutes ago, ar_pro said:

Very pretty...details, please!

Owner's & Service manuals, as well as a brochure and the High Fidelity magazine test report for the MC4100 are here: http://www.berners.ch/McIntosh/en/Frame_McIntosh.htm

 

Been wanting a Mac for some time now.. This one, pretty much completely restored, came up for sale a day or so ago about 10 minutes from where I live. I knew the people that did the restoration so I was confident in what I was getting, and the price seemed reasonable, so I bit the bullet and picked her up. Happy that I did. A nice match for the 3's. 

[DavidDru]

Well thats nice.  Cool!

[JKent]

19 hours ago, samberger0357 said:

Decided to join the McIntosh club and picked up a 4100 receiver to drive the 3's. Good times. 

I had one for a while and it worked very well with the AR-3a's.

If you want to fiddle with it a bit there is a good thread on AK about recapping. Whaleman started the thread and provide very good instructions AND a parts list. I "hijacked" the thread and described my recap. I was very happy with the results. http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/mac-4100-under-the-knife-qs.176380/

My only negative comment on the 4100 is that awful vinyl-clad cabinet so I bought a solid wood one from Audioclassics  http://www.audioclassics.com/detail?detail=L4100M&nav=cat

Enjoy!

-Kent

[samberger0357]

33 minutes ago, JKent said:

I had one for a while and it worked very well with the AR-3a's.

If you want to fiddle with it a bit there is a good thread on AK about recapping. Whaleman started the thread and provide very good instructions AND a parts list. I "hijacked" the thread and described my recap. I was very happy with the results. http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/mac-4100-under-the-knife-qs.176380/

My only negative comment on the 4100 is that awful vinyl-clad cabinet so I bought a solid wood one from Audioclassics  http://www.audioclassics.com/detail?detail=L4100M&nav=cat

Enjoy!

-Kent

Thanks for your comments.

 

It actually had pretty much a complete recap, and other restoration, through one of the most respected techs in the area. His notes:

" Checked and found multiple defective/ out of spec capacitors , there was also corroded switches, high resistant solder joints and a underlying humming which was caused by defective power supply capacitors . All defective components were replaced plus a few other as a preventative measure to ensure reliability . As requested the blue lamps were replaced to the original incandecent types, however it was found that there is a missing yellow plastic tint that give the unit it's 100% original look, without this plastic tint its about 90 -95% the original color . All noise and humming has been resolved , unit now works as it should . All old / weak solder joints have been re-done . All switches and potentiometers have been cleaned and de-oxidized Unit has been stress tested and has passed . A general inside out cleaning was done"

That, and the fact that I was able to get it locally as opposed shipped to me, was why I jumped on it. 

And the cabinet looks great through my eyes

[owlsplace]

You may inspire me to recap this receiver if resources are available this winter. There is definitely a 70s sound to these old units

Roger

[ar_pro]

$150 for the solid wood cabinet from Audio Classics is a great price, Kent.

I bought a custom walnut-finished cabinet for our MA6900 from this builder: http://www.mcintoshcabinets.com/pages/mcintosh.htm

He literally builds to order, and was happy to accommodate my request for a slightly larger heat vent on top.

Check out his vintage MA5100 in Black Walnut. Woohoo!

[samberger0357]

Wow that's gorgeous. 

 

16 minutes ago, ar_pro said:

$150 for the solid wood cabinet from Audio Classics is a great price, Kent.

Yes it is. I don't have a problem with what's on there now, but I think I'm going to call AC and get me one of those mahogany numbers. 

[JKent]

I "think" the prices have come down. If I'm not mistaken they were selling for more like $200 when I got mine but I jumped on a "second" that looked perfect to me. Sold the original on ebay for $50 in a flash--probably could have gotten more if I did an auction. AC has them in cherry, mahogany and walnut.

5 hours ago, ar_pro said:

I bought a custom walnut-finished cabinet for our MA6900 from this builder: http://www.mcintoshcabinets.com/pages/mcintosh.htm

He literally builds to order, and was happy to accommodate my request for a slightly larger heat vent on top.

That's a beauty!

-Kent