Another Amp for AR 3's

[samberger0357]

I have several "big" amps that I can use with the 3's. Yamaha M-4(170 watts @ 4ohms), Adcom GFA 5400(200 watts), Crown XLS 1000(325 watts). They all sound fine. But I really miss my tubes. I have restored Heathkit W-5M mono blocks(25 watts @ 8 ohms, don't know about 4, maybe the same?) and Fisher 500B and 400 receivers(between 25-30 watts at 8 ohms, again not sure about 4 ohms). When I put the 3's back in the system a few days ago, I had been using the W-5's with a restored pair of Wharfedale W60's. Splendid sound. I was excited to get the 3's back in after a period of one of them being in the shop, so I didn't change out amps and tried them with the 5's, and a Dynaco Super Pas pre. Well, I thought they sounded fine, and they got plenty loud in my relatively small space. I could get the Dynaco up to about 10 or 11 o'clock and by then it was loud enough for the wife to ask me to turn it down. My listening habits are basically at quite normal levels, mostly jazz, classical, some rock, and lots of old time, acoustic based music.

So my question pertains to the recommendations that the 3's are really power hungry and need hundreds of watts to come to life. When I use one of my bigger amps, I can barely get the gain on my pre up a couple notches. They sound great these lower levels, but I'm obviously not using much of the amps capability. So If I used my "lower" power tube gear, what am I giving up? I'm guessing mostly dynamics. But given that my listening levels are so conservative, would there really be much of a difference in using the big amps over the smaller ones?

[samberger0357]

I'm not clear yet if there is a way to edit my post, but the title was meant to be "Another amp question for AR 3's". If a mod can change it that would be great.

[Sonnar]

I also use low power tubes amps and high power SS amps to drive my AR speakers, but in my opinion I can't hear significative differences at conservative, low listening levels : maybe the tubes are slightly round 'n sweet, and the SS amp perhaps is faster and more transparent, but it's only a subjective impression, while at high listening levels the powerful quality of my QSC amp makes the difference . Do You detect any difference in sound quality between tubes and the Crown XLS 1000? Best regards, Adriano

[samberger0357]

Not really. I had the Heathkit's in yesterday, and they really do sound very nice with the 3's. Like I envision many pairs of the 3's were listened to back in the day. But I've since put the 1000 back in. Where the difference might be is actually at lower levels. I think the 1000 actually does that a little better than the tubes. Dynamics seem better, better low end. I'm speaking very low volumes, where there is no green on the power indication lights of the 1000. At those levels, the 3's sound very alive, and I truly don't feel I'm missing anything.

The other thing that I really like about using ss is that I can leave it on all day, whereas with tubes I can't. So the system is always warm, always ready to go.

It's good to hear that you have had success with lower power tubes, too. I plan to rotate my various tube amps every so often. I haven't tried my Fisher 500B yet with the 3's. That tends to be a little darker than the Heathkit's, so I'm not anticipating as good as match, but we'll see. But it's nice to have the various options.

I will say that the 1000 has really surprised me. I'm so glad that I saw Tom's endorsement for Crown, and pro amps in general. it's an amazing little amp. I like it so much I'm even toying getting another one and running them as mono blocks. On the other hand, that might be over doing it a bit

[Sonnar]

I agree with You. Also at very low listening levels , the QSC pro amp I have drives easily my AR 3 , perhaps with faster bass response and more transapency and microcontrast than my nice Eico ST 40 tube amp. Vintage hi-fi SS amps sounds worse than a good tube amp , but i have to admit that new pro amps leaves me pleasantly surprised. I use a QSC ISA280, a classic AB circuitation for installed systems , but I ' m very curious about news class D switching amps.

[GD70]

Hi all,

I have had my 3's hooked up to my Scott LK-72, 35wpc and my JVC A-X9 amp @ 105wpc.

They sounded very dull and lifeless with the Scott, which has been re-capped, new selenium rectifier and mostly new tubes.

My KHL Six's are much better match with the Scott. Really excellent sounding system.

The 3's with the JVC is a whole different level. Simply superb. Very life like, bass that vibrates the windows if I choose.

In my experience, they are so much better with higher power.

Glenn

[JeffS]

I use a vintage NAD 3020 to drive my 3's in a rather live room and find it to be adequate for the task. It probably delivers 40-50 watts peak into the 3's. My thought when choosing this amp was to preserve the mid and hi driver suspensions since they're not as supple as they were back in the 1960's, and finding good original replacement drivers can be difficult (as it is the mids are probably not operating to spec). I've used this setup for about three years now and have found the volume is perfectly adequate and I rarely see the 20 watt peak light come on. Also, with a pair of 3a's in the same room driven by a QSC RMX1450, I can play at more realistic levels if I'm in the mood.

Here's a link to AR's recommended power requirements for the AR18s - AR58s models (from the library).

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/library/acoustic_research/post-classic_series_1981-19/post-classic_series_manuals/ar18s_-_ar58s_manual/ar18s_-_ar58s_manual_pg1.html

And here is an entertaining read on Motown's use of the AR-3 as a studio monitor (on page 2).

Motown2.pdf

[samberger0357]

My biggest concern having to run a big watt solid state amp was that I was going to lose the musicality that tubes give me. To some extent, that was true with both of my vintage amps(Yamaha M-4 and to a lesser extent Adcom GFA 5400). But leave it to the brand spanking new, cheap(in price and looks only) Crown to be very musical. Not the least bit harsh, it has been a wonderful match for the 3's. It plays like an early 70's Marantz or Sony receiver.

[samberger0357]

That Motown piece is a fun read. Thanks.

[JeffS]

Hello Glenn,

Glad to see you posting here. I frequently read your posts (I've been a reader only) on Audiokarma and admire the work you do to bring vintage AR and KLH speakers back to life. Your cabinet restorations look great!

Jeff

[GD70]

Hello Glenn,

Glad to see you posting here. I frequently read your posts (I've been a reader only) on Audiokarma and admire the work you do to bring vintage AR and KLH speakers back to life. Your cabinet restorations look great!

Jeff

Hi Jeff!

Appreciate that! I tried registering a while ago, but for technical reasons it didn't happen. Carl helped me and several other AKers with registering and being able to post now!

Glenn

[DavidDru]

So with the recent activity again here I went ahead and hooked my 3's up to my Dynaco ST70/Pas2 system to compare to the higher power SS system they typically are hooked up to.

Result: While some things sound nice, there really is no comparison. The 3's simply are in their element with power behind them if you want to get the most out of them.

I do run a tube preamp in front of the SS amp to help sneak in a little of that wanted tube type sound. My Adcom is the GFA5500 so plenty of umph. The 9's sounded good too. I just picked up an Audionics amp that I will try with them next. it is somewhere in-between in power rating.

My ultimate goal though is to eventually end up with higher power tube amps. Probably 2 to drive the AR's as well as my other power hungry speakers.

[samberger0357]

Yup I'm finally coming around more power is good with the 3's. Particularly for listening at lower levels. That was the last thing I considered. But If I can ever get the dough together I'd love try some higher power tube gear with the 3's. I used to own a pair of Heathkit W-7's, rated at 55 wpc that I bet would've sounded very nice with them. But they're gone. Since I don't plan on ever getting rid of the 3's, hopefully I'll have the opportunity down the road.

I'm using a Yamaha C-4 pre with the Crown, but I have a couple of tube pre's that maybe I'll sneak in. Truthfully, I've never heard much, if any, difference in using tube pre's with ss amps. The C-4 is great sounding, and has 2 phono's which is really helpful for a my 3 turntable set up.

[GD70]

So with the recent activity again here I went ahead and hooked my 3's up to my Dynaco ST70/Pas2 system to compare to the higher power SS system they typically are hooked up to.

Result: While some things sound nice, there really is no comparison. The 3's simply are in their element with power behind them if you want to get the most out of them.

I do run a tube preamp in front of the SS amp to help sneak in a little of that wanted tube type sound. My Adcom is the GFA5500 so plenty of umph. The 9's sounded good too. I just picked up an Audionics amp that I will try with them next. it is somewhere in-between in power rating.

My ultimate goal though is to eventually end up with higher power tube amps. Probably 2 to drive the AR's as well as my other power hungry speakers.

Eventually, I want a pair of Bogen MO 100 mono block tube amps. 100 watts output each! Should do the job quite nicely!

[owlsplace]

So with the recent activity again here I went ahead and hooked my 3's up to my Dynaco ST70/Pas2 system to compare to the higher power SS system they typically are hooked up to.

Result: While some things sound nice, there really is no comparison. The 3's simply are in their element with power behind them if you want to get the most out of them.

I do run a tube preamp in front of the SS amp to help sneak in a little of that wanted tube type sound. My Adcom is the GFA5500 so plenty of umph. The 9's sounded good too. I just picked up an Audionics amp that I will try with them next. it is somewhere in-between in power rating.

My ultimate goal though is to eventually end up with higher power tube amps. Probably 2 to drive the AR's as well as my other power hungry speakers.

David,

Didn't the AR-9's come factory wired for bi-amping? SS on woof and tubes on rest -- let us know

Hopefully you won't have any phasing issues between the amps ...

Roger

[DavidDru]

Yup. And I may be headed in that direction. A least 2 amps. I need to learn more about crossovers and biamping etc when you dont run 2 similar amps.

[DavidR]

So with the recent activity again here I went ahead and hooked my 3's up to my Dynaco ST70/Pas2 system to compare to the higher power SS system they typically are hooked up to.

Result: While some things sound nice, there really is no comparison. The 3's simply are in their element with power behind them if you want to get the most out of them.

I do run a tube preamp in front of the SS amp to help sneak in a little of that wanted tube type sound. My Adcom is the GFA5500 so plenty of umph. The 9's sounded good too. I just picked up an Audionics amp that I will try with them next. it is somewhere in-between in power rating.

My ultimate goal though is to eventually end up with higher power tube amps. Probably 2 to drive the AR's as well as my other power hungry speakers.

David,

After going thru several amps to find something that would drive my baby 9's (AR90's) well; especially good strong bass at low volume (without having to add tone), I found that a high current pushing amp with good damping factor works best to get those paralleled woofers to move well. A good pre goes a long way, too.

[samberger0357]

To the folks that prefer big power with your 3's, I'd be curious as to the size of your listening area's. As I stated mine is on the small side which is why I'm able to get good results using less power. I'm betting if my room was  or 3 times the size I'd need more juice.

 This morning put my W-5's back in the mix, this time with a Decware CSP2 preamp. If not familiar with the pre, it's a tube pre that uses 3 6DJ8(or variants) and 5Y3(again, or variants) rectification. One of the nice features is that it has separate channel gain from 4 to 35 volts with no appreciable distortion. It allows the pre to be used with pretty much any amp you want, tube or ss. In addition to a really helping with matching output, it allows one to use less amp power and still get a lotta kick in the overall output. I am having no problem driving the 3's to very loud levels with this combination while enjoying a hearty 25 or so watts from the W-5's(which I consider some of the best mono blocks around). 

Just love the sound of tubes through the 3's. 

[Sonnar]

Sometimes I drive my AR 3's second pair ( pine plywood ) with a 1962 Allied-Knight KA-25 , a little and cheap 10 watts per channel integrated, with 6BM8 tubes. This could be an heresy, only ten watts for an AR 3! But at low listening levels and with some chamber or baroque music , or string quartets, the joy of listening is superlative. 

[samberger0357]

17 minutes ago, Sonnar said:

Sometimes I drive my AR 3's second pair ( pine plywood ) with a 1962 Allied-Knight KA-25 , a little and cheap 10 watts per channel integrated, with 6BM8 tubes. This could be an heresy, only ten watts for an AR 3! But at low listening levels and with some chamber or baroque music , or string quartets, the joy of listening is superlative. 

Not heresy at all. That's sort of my point. 

How large of room are you listening to them in ?

[Sonnar]

My room is 15 feet lenght, 13 feet wide and 11feet height. A bad and small room. However , in 1966 my father drove his AR 3 with Marantz 7 / 8b , 35 watts per channel , in a very large room, 33 feet lenght , 19 feet wide and 11 feet height. At the time I was a six year old boy, but I remember a clean and good sound. 

[samberger0357]

Mine is similar, about 20 x 15, similar height. Full of furniture, curtains, records and books. Hardwood floors. I have no difficulty in believing you use and enjoy a 10 watt tube amp on occasion. I personally would prefer to stick in the 25-30 watt range which gives me a very proper amount of muscle when I ask for it, and also responds nicely to dips in impedance. 

What pleases me most is that when I want a tube fix, I can get one without necessarily having to switch out to more "tube friendly" speakers. And call me nuts, but I like being vintage correct if at all possible. 

[xmas111]

I'm driving two sets of 3a's stacked.   Each set is driven by a Yaqin MC-100B tube amp.   I replaced the KT88 tubes with KT120's in each amp.

I have them in the kitchen (that's right , the kitchen) and must say they sound wonderful with plenty of power to spare.

[Sonnar]

A friend of mine drives his AR 3a with a 7 watts per channel Rogers Cadet and an Audio Note tubes preamp , obviously at very low listening levels : when he needs more punch he uses an Hafler DH 200. Both are very fine amplifiers. 

[samberger0357]

25 minutes ago, xmas111 said:

I'm driving two sets of 3a's stacked.   Each set is driven by a Yaqin MC-100B tube amp.   I replaced the KT88 tubes with KT120's in each amp.

I have them in the kitchen (that's right , the kitchen) and must say they sound wonderful with plenty of power to spare.

Not married, huh

 

Those Yaqin push out 60 wpc, right? I don't think anybody would doubt you've got plenty of power for the 3a's. Must sound awesome.