Aadams

The AR98T is now operating as a dual dome, 8 inch, 3-way-top for an AR58s woofer. The sound sufficiently resembles that of the AR classic domes that I decided to replace the sketchy pots in my AR5s with Lpads to permit a fair comparison of the dual dome 10” AR5 with the dual dome 8 inch 98. Lpads, combined with rebuilt tweeters in the AR5, provide enough tweeter output at the 5khz crossover to compare favorably with the later version dome midranges that extend to 5500 and beyond. The AR5 and 98 pairs are sitting vertically, side by side. The signal path is identical up to the speaker switch. Both speaker systems are crossed over below 200hz with bass being handled by a common subwoofer. The AR 5 tweeters were set to max output. The mid-ranges were turned down to level match the 98 mids in the 2k band and then dialed in by ear using the lpads to achieve center balance. The 98 8 inch and the AR5 10 inch LMRs were checked at 500hz for similarity of output and it turns out they are very close at the same gain setting. In fact, the LSI modification appears to have made the AR98s less efficient than the AR5, with a practical effect of requiring zero gain changes to volume match the speakers, despite one being 8 ohm and the other 4 ohm. Listening distance was 4 to 6 feet. Speakers are set 4 and 6 feet apart toed in toward the listening position. The result: They sound practically identical, so close that sometimes on some music passages the switch could not be perceived. It is easy to lose track of which speaker is operating unless standing at the switch box or next to a speaker but ultimately, after enough switching, it becomes apparent the 98 has a bit more refined sound and I am guessing it is because of the LS mid/tweeter unit. I am talking about a margin of difference so narrow it can only be noticed consistently if one is manning the controls or perhaps has a golden ear. The real achievement is an LSi can be matched by a Classic AR dome, if the classic has been sufficiently restored to its original state and carefully set up using Lpads to balance the output of driver pairs. Edit: The sound stage of the AR5s was too broad on many classical recordings, considering the listening position of only 6ft away, so I placed them on their side atop the AR98s. Not only is the sound stage issue solved, the vertical alignment of the mid and tweeter seems to provide better clarity. I had no complaints before, but it made a noticeable difference on some very familiar material. Disclosure: I can’t hear past 10k if that matters. There certainly isn’t any actual music in that region. Aadams

Kal87bmw you might want to start a separate thread for this and provide photos. Aadams

AR18B 17h x11w x 6/78d AR98LS/2 17hx 12w x 9d as shown on previous page. Note: 9 inch depth accommodates the 12" bass unit so it could be 7"d. Edit for Clarity

I find AR classic domes can image quite well but only in limited circumstances. Below is a drawing of what I think I hear when listening to 3as set up in a way to permit imaging but also find the on-axis zone where the mix of sound is most enjoyable. If you want the classics to image they must be toed in with a “sweet spot ”vertex no further from the speakers than the closest reflective sidewall or floor. If your ceilings are 8 ft you only have about 4ft in front of the speaker after which reflected sound will dominate. If your ceilings are 10 feet you may have a tad more distance. If you have a side wall 3ft away then that is your limit. Closer than 3ft to any reflector becomes pointless for imaging with a classic dome and probably an ADD series but 3ft is a bit close for listening even for me when using large speakers. The room is all hard surfaces. The speaker mids and tweeters are set off the floor about 4ft from the nearest boundaries. The diagram below shows what I think I am hearing. To create the image sweet spot with a classic dome all drivers need to be balanced. That is driver for driver between left and right should have near identical output which is not easy even when all the components have been refurbished. Please forgive the crudity of the drawing I did not have the endurance to create it in extreme detail.

Budney Good to hear you are actually very to close to having your speakers sorted. If you have access to a 10 band graphic equalizer you could try to bring the mid range driver down 2 or 3db db across its band using the 1k 2k 4k sliders, which would increase apparent upper bass. If no equalizer then more furniture, carpet and draperies might help. A new tweeter won't tame that potent mid driver, though it will restore the balance in the crossover range. Adams

I don't know if it would in a meaningful way but the dual dome plate combo sounds like a point source from 1200 to 20k, unlike any other AR, and it would be perfect for standalone or subwoofer use. I thought "big boy 8 inch three way" in this thread meant both dome mid and tweeter. One advantage of the the 38b and 338 is they actually exist as opposed to an imagined LS dual dome 8inch 3way. The 38b, as you know, was a contemporary of the LS series in the 1980s whereas the the 303 series did not appear until the late 90s. I believe the 338 was the only dual dome 8inch that AR ever manufactured and appears to be very rare on the aftermarket. My point was AR had the hardware to make a very high end 8inch three way in the 1980s. Revel offers one of the few 8 inch three way home speakers on the market today for home use, the Gem2, for around $4000.

The mids and tweeter of the LS range AR 9 and 98. Also the mid and tweet of the 78.

Its been four years. At the time this thread was active I did not fully appreciate what it was about. AR had the product in the 1980s and failed to see it. Shown below.

Budney You now sound as though the main problem is lack of bass. Your placement is sufficient for decent bass. I agree with Jkent, forget about the tweeters.. Turn them all the way down with the level control or disconnect them for now. It appears to me you have the correct surrounds but that does look like a wider than normal margin on the outer edge on the masonite spacer. The surround edge is also irregularly placed on the spacer which makes the roll appear narrower in some points but maybe that is the photo perspective. The dust caps look as though they have never been removed or cut and re-glued so I am guessing the woofers were not shimmed when the surrounds were installed . It will still work though, as long as the woofer has a good seal. Have you performed the woofer push test? Have you downloaded and read the AR3 restoration guide? You really need to read the woofer seal section of the restoration guide. These speakers are supposed to have level switches not pots. Are you sure the level switches or pots are working properly? Finally what is this thing that looks like a hole? If this is a gap it will have immense negative impact on low bass performance.

I wish these videos were good tools for this and I agree with genek in general but in this case I believe we have an exception to the rule. This video is instructive and highlights a problem in comparing AR speakers across different generations or even tiers within a generation and the below statement is the crux. At these settings the 3a mid would be shouting an entire octave that in the 3 was still stuck in the woofer. I contend the difference you were hearing was the power response of the 3a and if the 3a mid had been turned down a smidge the two speakers would have been very similar. Example: In my listening space, the 3a mid sounds more potent than an AR 9 mid LMR UMR combo over the same octaves when both systems are unattenuated and side by side with identical equalizer settings. The 3a mid must be turned down to level match. I think you see the same issue comparing AR5 and AR2ax. Same woofer but 1400hz vs 600 hz woofer to mid crossover. I have never not had to attenuate an AR classic mid range to get it level matched even when sitting next to a 58s which is a renowned mid range screamer. The only other AR mid range configuration I have experienced that approaches the classic mid dome output is the AR98 mid dome. Adams

You didn't say anything about placement in the room. If they are placed out in the room away from walls and up off the floor bass won't be much better than the AR7 but above 80hz or so they should still be very good. Are you sure the level controls are working correctly in both speakers? At max setting both mids should be producing perceptably identical output. You can disconnect the marantz tweeters and listen to the mids alone. and Ditto front and back, grills off. Edit: Are you sure your woofers are wired in phase, inside the cabinets and at the terminals? Adams

The tweeter issue wasn't really well known when the AR 3a Restoration Guide,(which you should download and read,) was written and the availability of tweeter repair has only happened within the last two years. I would not expect you to see anything about this on youtube. The Hivi mod may be on youtube, and it's creator, who occasionally visits these pages, intended it as an alternative for broken tweeters. If you want authentic sound you must rebuild and replace in pairs. If you want near authentic sound for a little less money then install a pair of Hivi. A lot of what you hear about the mellow rolled off sound of the 3a can be attributed to operable but severely degraded tweeters. I guarantee the chance that your old tweeters are no where close to original factory performance is 99%. Adams

Here is a link to a recent , comprehensive 3a restoration. Parts Express is now a reliable one stop shop for everything you will need, as is Vintage AR on Ebay, but prices can be very different. If you have Sprague Compulytic caps inside you can safely leave them in place. Even if your tweeters work, they are almost certainly severely degraded in performance. If they were mine I would use the existing Spragues, replace the pots with Lpads and resistors and have the tweeters rebuilt. If you go the Hi Vi tweeter route, don't toss your old tweeters, even dead ones can be brought back to life. I am sure others will post more sources for parts and have cap recommendations.

The HIvi mod is is pretty well settled, having changed only slightly from the original advice in the Restoration Document. Everything you need is in this thread If you are in the US you might want to consider having your tweeters rebuilt rather than Hivi mod. Adams

This place has been quiet for a while so I have been reviewing threads from the beginning of the AR forum in the year 2000. Among other noteworthy topics there have been many statements about the superiority of the AR9 over the years but this is the only thread I can find that claims the LSI version is superior. I agree. Out of the box, the LSi is the best 10 octave speaker AR ever made. Surely, someone makes something as good now but a far superior speaker, as perceived by the human ear, would be hard to imagine and I would be skeptical without a side by side comparison. Feel free to convince me otherwise. PS: It doesn't need switches just mild equalization. Adams

This is an interesting LPad retrospective considering where CSP stands today on LPAD use in the classic ARs. For the record I am a late but fervent advocate of LPads. I posted this so anyone searching for advice will know to move on to recent discussions JIC they are trying to make a decision now, almost 16 years later. Aadams

Infrastructure decay or maintenance and upgrade?

What is your objective? Merely stacking full range speakers with other full range speakers rarely achieves better results than using a single pair.

If you intend to use a single pair there will be no appreciable difference. Multiples I would go with the CR65. Neither speaker will do well below 120hz. Adams

Start a thread in Mods and Tweaks or other speakers and we can talk. Not sure about what you are wanting to do if it is like what is in this thread below Then the CR65 is your best bet. See you in mods and tweaks or Other speakers. Adams

MO You might want to start a thread in the mods and tweaks or other speakers forums. This is getting way off of AR topics. BTW I thought you were referencing the M & T thread and not the BA thread. You also might want to take a look at the Ligs 92 db thread. Adams

My apologies MO Talk about thread creep………… I never expected that BA CR65 thread to land in a thread about the AR98. If you are interested in using the CR65s in that way you should begin reading the thread at the post of April 7, 2018. The “two equalizer” version with two dissimilar amps works but is very difficult to manage and no longer exists. I just recently added an edit to the first post of the thread stating that readers should skip to that date. The simplified and way better version is still in use as the tops to an AR12 inch passive woofer. Adams

Assuming everything works, and based on what you show in the photos; the tweeters are way wrong, the mids are probably ok though at least one is a replacement but the woofers alone with cabs could be a reason to purchase these if the price is right. That looks like black powder coat on the cabs. Edit: My current guess is they are covered with felt Adams

Are you saying they are 8" 3 ways from the 1980s? Can you post a good photo?

If cost benefit is a genuine concern to the OP, it might be helpful to tell him the magnitude of improvement in sound quality that comes from using the more expensive solutions as opposed to using all Dayton NPE, for example, which would very inexpensive by comparison and merely replicate the original design and sound. Adams