Re: AR 11 tweeters

[lakecat]

Never ran across these speakers so looking at a pair. They have the yellow tweeters and have also seen a few with the black tweeters. Is there any major differences between them? Thanks for any help. Have the 12's and might be nice to add these.

[DavidR]

I don't know for sure but I've always heard the yellow button tweeters are the ones sought after.

[AR55]

The main difference between the 2 tweeters is that the black tweeter (updated AR11B) is cooled with ferrofluid and the yellow tweeter (original AR11) isn't.  

 

[lakecat]

7 minutes ago, AR55 said:

The main difference between the 2 tweeters is that the black tweeter (updated AR11B) is cooled with ferrofluid and the yellow tweeter (original AR11) isn't.  

 

Okay...I am headed out tomorrow to listen to them. Thanks for the info!....

[lakecat]

Well...I finally got them today and what a find. They are freshly refoamed nicely....has the original shipping boxes with pads inside....the AR11 literature that came with speakers. ..even a small envelope that has small felt pads to put on cabinet!...lol. 

Hooked them up to my McIntosh 2205 and they are simply fantastic sounding. All drivers look like new. Foam grills are passable but aged. I can understand when they say this was their finest effort with the bookshelves.

[DavidR]

Great score !

[ar_pro]

I love New Speaker Day!

Those are beauties - you can always tell when the original owner treated them with pride & care.

They'll be fantastic with that MC2205 - congratulations!

[Giorgio AR]

12 hours ago, lakecat said:

They are freshly refoamed nicely....

Beautiful pair, complete with cardboard box and documentation! Congratulations on your "loot"...but I have to tell you that the tw with the small central dent can patiently be straightened and from the unfortunately blurry photos, I seem to see replacement Tonegen woofers (the detail that makes me think of replacement woofers is the dark ring on the outside of the suspension and the color of the paper of the cones).
To find out which woofer you have you have to remove a woofer, the two woofers (AR and TNG) are easily recognizable...you can also find my thread on the subject of my speech.

[lakecat]

Thanks guys. No expert on the woofers but have seen this color on other 11's in past. With how nice these speakers are in original condition, I can't imagine why they would be replaced...especially with the refresh foam job.

The dent on tweeter dust cap will be tough to get out as it is a harder material. Kind of like a plastic so water and tube probably won't work. Hate the thought of a needle also in trying to pry it out. Maybe heating it with a blow dryer to soften it and then a tube to suck the dent out? Any ideas?

[lakecat]

This seller also had a pair of AR TSW 910's that just blew me away with it's bass. Right beside those were a pair of Kef 104.2's that sounded very good. Then took me to his bar area and a nice pair of Thiels were there and sounded very nice. Then he said he had two pair of AR 9's stored in a room upstairs!...lol....just shook my head. He said he preferred the 910 over the 9's in the room he had them in. Very knowledgeable and nice guy. First time I heard the 910's...and they were impressive.

[DavidR]

19 minutes ago, lakecat said:

The dent on tweeter dust cap will be tough to get out as it is a harder material. Kind of like a plastic so water and tube probably won't work. Hate the thought of a needle also in trying to pry it out. Maybe heating it with a blow dryer to soften it and then a tube to suck the dent out? Any ideas?

Its so small it's most likely not affecting the sound. Leave it be.

[giovanni56]

2 hours ago, lakecat said:

Grazie ragazzi. Nessun esperto di woofer ma ho visto questo colore su altri 11 in passato. Con quanto sono belli questi altoparlanti nelle condizioni originali, non riesco a immaginare perché dovrebbero essere sostituiti... specialmente con il lavoro di aggiornamento della schiuma.

L'ammaccatura sul cappuccio antipolvere del tweeter sarà difficile da eliminare poiché è un materiale più duro. Un po 'come una plastica, quindi probabilmente l'acqua e il tubo non funzioneranno. Odio il pensiero di un ago anche nel tentativo di estrarlo. Forse riscaldandolo con un asciugacapelli per ammorbidirlo e poi un tubo per aspirare l'ammaccatura? Qualche idea?

In my opinion Giorgio Ar is right the woofers are TNGs. 

• They may also be Ar 200003-1

[giovanni56]

2 hours ago, lakecat said:

Grazie ragazzi. Nessun esperto di woofer ma ho visto questo colore su altri 11 in passato. Con quanto sono belli questi altoparlanti nelle condizioni originali, non riesco a immaginare perché dovrebbero essere sostituiti... specialmente con il lavoro di aggiornamento della schiuma.

L'ammaccatura sul cappuccio antipolvere del tweeter sarà difficile da eliminare poiché è un materiale più duro. Un po 'come una plastica, quindi probabilmente l'acqua e il tubo non funzioneranno. Odio il pensiero di un ago anche nel tentativo di estrarlo. Forse riscaldandolo con un asciugacapelli per ammorbidirlo e poi un tubo per aspirare l'ammaccatura? Qualche idea?

The 'dent in the tweeter is easily solved by gently vacuuming with a soft rubber tube resting on the dome.

[lakecat]

Just out of curiousity, I have been Googling pics of AR11 speakers and finding that the pair I have with the yellow tweeter seems to be very rare. The woofer (if replaced) is no big deal as Tom Tyson said it has almost the same specs...and can handle higher volume. Here is a pic of a pair of 11's like mine and it seems to have the same woofer....

Acoustic Research AR-11 - Hifidealer

Quote

 

 

[frankmarsi]

Not minimalize any opinions already expressed here and though I'm not certain but, wasn't 'ferro-fluid' tweeters a selling point when the 11's first came out? 

Back in 1978, a friend of mine bought a new set of 11's and as I've said before the bass wasn't as well rounded as it was in the AR-3a however, in our auditioning we didn't adhere to any proper set-up when we played them. That in of itself could very much be a dis-qualifying factor. Though the woofers might be of the Tongen origin initially also.

Only the Grand High Exalted Ruler Roy C. would be able to tell us all for sure as he's refurbing these and other AR's and would have the experience of seeing and working on them in the flesh regularly. If I saw a pair for sale locally, I would snatch them up immediately without question.

Though like all things AR, the answer is no doubt in an older post. Hopefully, it can be found and much of the important opinions and knowledge that were already discussed by members years ago by those who had more AR experience and electrical qualifications.

FM

[DavidR]

Can anyone really hear a difference between AR and Tonegen woofers? They are so similar in appearance.

One member here suggested I pull the AR woofers from my 91s and put them in my 10Pi. Haven't done it yet and don't know if there would be a big enough difference.

[AR55]

I have 2 pairs of AR-11s.  One pair has AR woofers and the other Tonegen woofers (the original owner replaced the woofers when the surrounds failed).  My wife & I have compared them side-by-side and we didn't hear a noticeable difference.  I'm not saying that one doesn't exist, but we could hear it.

I also didn't notice a difference in the base response of my AR98LS (AR woofers) & AR98LSi (Tonegen woofers) speakers.  

[frankmarsi]

@ DavidR "Can anyone really hear a difference between AR and Tonegen woofers? They are so similar in appearance."

I believe the Tonegen woofer cone material is slight thinner as compared to the original 12 inch. Some folks have mentioned they found

the same as I have.  Unscientifically speaking, the Tonegen just doesn't seem as inert or dead sounding cone when given the finger tap test-it's close but not exact.

Then again, I could be suffering from an episode of 'Acute AR Speakeritis Delusion' and, judging from how long I've been directly exposed, I could be severely contaminated.

FM

 

 

 

198

[genek]

Back in the late 80s, before I had the internet and before I had heard of refoaming, one of the woofers in my 1975 AR-2ax's lost its foam. Assuming that where one failed the other was soon to follow, I ordered "service replacements" for both, which by then were Tonegen. After replacing the failed woofer I compared the speaker to its still-working mate and could not hear a difference. And, of course, the mate also failed within a year.

30 years later, both of the service replacements are still in place and working fine, so there was definitely some difference between them and the originals that failed in just under 15 years.

[DavidR]

If I can ever get my son to take the 91s over his TSW610 I will swap woofers. The 10Pi are keepers.

[lakecat]

2 hours ago, AR55 said:

I have 2 pairs of AR-11s.  One pair has AR woofers and the other Tonegen woofers (the original owner replaced the woofers when the surrounds failed).  My wife & I have compared them side-by-side and we didn't hear a noticeable difference.  I'm not saying that one doesn't exist, but we could hear it.

I also didn't notice a difference in the base response of my AR98LS (AR woofers) & AR98LSi (Tonegen woofers) speakers.  

I don't think there is to be honest. Do like if they are replacements that will handle more volume.

11 hours ago, DavidR said:

Its so small it's most likely not affecting the sound. Leave it be.

I know.....just me being anal...lol. I want it as perfect as possible.

3 hours ago, frankmarsi said:

Not minimalize any opinions already expressed here and though I'm not certain but, wasn't 'ferro-fluid' tweeters a selling point when the 11's first came out? 

Back in 1978, a friend of mine bought a new set of 11's and as I've said before the bass wasn't as well rounded as it was in the AR-3a however, in our auditioning we didn't adhere to any proper set-up when we played them. That in of itself could very much be a dis-qualifying factor. Though the woofers might be of the Tongen origin initially also.

Only the Grand High Exalted Ruler Roy C. would be able to tell us all for sure as he's refurbing these and other AR's and would have the experience of seeing and working on them in the flesh regularly. If I saw a pair for sale locally, I would snatch them up immediately without question.

Though like all things AR, the answer is no doubt in an older post. Hopefully, it can be found and much of the important opinions and knowledge that were already discussed by members years ago by those who had more AR experience and electrical qualifications.

FM

Frank....these must be the first run of the 11's as from what I have learned here, the yellow tweeters are not ferro-fluid. In looking at many google pics of the 11's, only a couple had the yellow tweeters.

I have a pretty good collection of AR's now.... the LST, the AR3a in walnut and pine with alnico woofers, the AR3 in walnut and very rare birch, the AR12, two pairs of Heathkit AS-103's that are the 3a knockoffs, the AR 303 in black, and now the AR 11. Also experimented with two Heathkit cabinets that have AR11 woofers and midranges in it and has the 3a tweeters in it. 

[frankmarsi]

@ lakecat. You may be entirely correct. Though my condition of Acute AR Speakeritis Delusion'  might be in remission at times and therefore unpredictable I can vaguely say that I recall seeing the yellow dome early on and I felt it was sort of weird as AR was always understated in their styling and I felt yellow would've been weird and not in keeping with their understated styling. 

So, maybe yellow domes were not 'ferro-fluid' equipped and they started use of the ferro stuff just after my sighting of the yellow domes, that's possible. I do recall in magazine advertising AR was broadcasting their new tweeter frequently. So although it is beneficial to us all then and now, back then, it wasn't revolutionary to the average listener and went un-noticed by most. Perhaps the yellow dome was part of a plan to promote their future release of the ferro-domes but wasn't continued in yellow?

 

**But, here's a curve-ball. I recently read that a new type of 'magnetic-tape' is responsible as being and having the largest amount of 'digital' storage capability of 330 terra-bits on a small portion of actual tape. Magnetic tape was devised and perfected by the Germans during WW II and although it is more capable of provideing more quality of sound  than digital ones and zeros can, it was sadly lost in the shuffle of lazy convenience by cassette and CD and other effortless means of playback. Though it has a level of sound quality that is unmatched, it easily fell out of consumer favor.    And off on a another tangent, if certain money concerns have found it profitable to recreate the "KLH" line of speakers, is the rebirth of AR speakers far behind?  And if so, what happens to "CSP" and who would be the first to hear and own them? More food for thought is the new Corvette as it not only retains a healthy V8 on board but, GM has newly dropped an electric motor in it so, I guess it's a hybrid. Does that sound acceptable to true combustion engine gear-heads?

FM

 

 

 

 

 

248

[genek]

I'm still waiting for one of our members who is familiar with the sound of classic KLHs to listen to the new "KLH 5" and tell us if it sounds anything like the original. Because if a "new" KLH or AR made by a different company sounds like a modern speaker, is putting "KLH" or "AR" on the badge and styling it to resemble a classic KLH or AR make it a real KLH or AR? Not to me.

Corvettes, OTOH, are a different matter because the new ones are being made by the same company that made the old ones. And they're not even a revival, because the model has been in continuous production with a continuous evolution of changes since it was first introduced. If the original AR was still in business and turning out an "AR-LST MkXX," we might not like the way the current production version looks or sounds, but there would be no denying that it's an authentic AR.

[RoyC]

The AR-11 tweeter was discussed many moons ago. The tan/yellow dome tweeter was the earliest version of the 2nd generation 3/4" AR tweeter, and does not have ferro-fluid in the vc gap. It tends to be popular among AR-11 aficionados today primarily because ferro-fluid can cause variable response issues due to age and hard use. The early non-ff AR-11 tweeter is presumed to have remained more consistent, and closer to original spec. Why AR chose the dome's color is anyone's guess, but being the first AR tweeter of its kind, it probably had more to do with being the first time AR used a cloth dome. It also clearly differentiated it from the comparatively crude 3/4" black paper dome that preceded it.

As a result of its stiffer suspension, Fs of the Tonegen woofer was in the mid 20's compared to mid/upper-teens for the earlier versions of the woofer original to the 3a and LST. Some of the relatively effortless (lowest) bass response of the original design was therefore sacrificed. The Tonegen woofer, however, was extremely well built and consistent in quality, and is usually found to be in excellent shape today. Since the spider/suspension has had decades to soften, they usually perform very well in all AR models, albeit at the sacrifice of some of the original power handling capability.

Roy

[frankmarsi]

So, there ya go....BINGO!

According to R.C., I was partially correct in my saying the Tonegen woofer could be slightly different in its sound quality. When a friend invited me over his apartment in 1978 to check out his new AR-11's I felt the differences were in the bass and that's what seems to be the only difference. Though in reality going back to my first pair of 3a's in 1971 I became so enamored with AR's 12 inch woofer I became a devoted and loyal owner and after being a bass player '67 to '73, and by listening as a child to my father's big RCA with a 12 field-coil woofer I was bought and sold for the rest of life. Bass prior to owning AR's had always been a major attraction to me, still is. Generally most recordings rode the controls down so most listeners little tiny two-bit radios wouldn't distort. They rode down the treble also. In fact generally for the masses consumer sound quality was minimized at best. Great bass players like Paul McCartney for one and others through out rock and most other music recording the 'bass' was always slighted during recording as was much of the higher table range. Damn, most of us had the exclusive use of 'AM' radio quality transmissions and little speakers. Longing to have one extreme on to the other was probably why I became so devoted to AR woofers.

In 1972, I converted my 1968 Fender Bassman 'drip-edge' cabinet from its factory two 12 inch Jensens to two 15 inch Ovation woofers as I couldn't afford the proper "JBL' silver dust-cap 15" speakers.. Removing all of the screws from the back panel was tiring on its own but, removing the grill cloth and cutting the driver holes out bigger to fit the 15 inchers was slow and daunting. Being all of 22 years old I became anxious of the coming new results I was about to experience, I wasn't able to ascertain the 'Free-Air-Resonance' values for the bigger woofers.  I didn't expand the 'port' in the front of the front baffle so, my 15 inchers may still be suffering and constricted from moving the proper amount of air and therefore not performing at their best. Though, it still sounds good for limited home practice use. So much for past experiments and youthful uncertainity.

When I was acting insane* fifteen years ago and buying every AR 12 inch woofer I could find/afford, it was due to my trust and belief in the AR woofer. And although it won't matter to anyone else but myself, whenever I auditioned speakers at stores or salons in Manhattan my immediate attention was always directed to a speaker's bass response. When I finally acquired my four LST's, I quietly realized I would never have to pursue or even care about bass any longer because if not only their excellent midrange driver, AR's bass was pretty much all I could ever ask for. And yes, their tweeter had excellent dispersion attributes and at the time pretty much the best dispersion around, power handling certainly was not its forte. Current 12" spares are still about 16 or more in number, it might be more but I mustn't speak of my greediness in public.

FM

* Still do.