Re: AR 11 tweeters

[RoyC]

29 minutes ago, genek said:

I'm still waiting for one of our members who is familiar with the sound of classic KLHs to listen to the new "KLH 5" and tell us if it sounds anything like the original. Because if a "new" KLH or AR made by a different company sounds like a modern speaker, does it really matter what it looks like or what it says on the badge?

Agreed, Gene...and who is the actual market for such products? It seems to me the "new" KLH 5 at $2500/pair is not going to appeal to older guys, nor attract younger people who mostly don't care about KLH, or any badge, for that matter.

We had a similar discussion with Ken Kantor in relation to replacement drivers years ago. The cost of manufacturing original-design components in high enough quantities to give it any viability as a business model is generally cost prohibitive. In the case of complete speaker systems, I'm sure there are many more costs and concerns.

"And off on a another tangent, if certain money concerns have found it profitable to recreate the "KLH" line of speakers, is the rebirth of AR speakers far behind?"  Who says they are profitable, Frank? After some quick internet searching, I'm not seeing much being said about them. Imo, it appears to be a small company simply trying to capitalize on residual nostalgia for a very defunct brand's model. If you recall, there have been other failed attempts to bring back the KLH and AR labels in more recent decades. The only difference I see here is an attempt to revive a specific model. The people behind it may even be fans of old KLH speakers, but somehow I doubt it is translating into much of a profit.

I'm thinking AR would more likely be similar to "Legacy" if in business today. https://legacyaudio.com/?gclid=Cj0KCQiA_bieBhDSARIsADU4zLenRY3zVIDRJLPlMIqinGJsuADKL2FcjilRZ_mu0tIjNu_9U-vxEuAaAvlQEALw_wcB

Roy

[Norman Nicolai]

Roy, I respectfully disagree with your take on the new iteration of the KLH Model Five. I don't want to hijack this thread, so I'll respond in the CSP KLH heading in a new thread. 

[RoyC]

On 1/23/2023 at 5:19 PM, Norman Nicolai said:

Roy, I respectfully disagree with your take on the new iteration of the KLH Model Five. I don't want to hijack this thread, so I'll respond in the CSP KLH heading in a new thread. 

No problem at all, Norman...I would be interested in your perspective. My opinion was not based on any personal experience with this speaker, just the viability of it as a sales success or it being an indicator of the "rebirth of AR speakers (not) being far behind". You would be the first person I know with any experience with this speaker.

[frankmarsi]

I refuse to give up my speakers!

https://www.stereophile.com/content/klh-model-five-loudspeaker

[DavidR]

2 hours ago, RoyC said:

I'm thinking AR would more likely be similar to "Legacy" if in business today. https://legacyaudio.com/?gclid=Cj0KCQiA_bieBhDSARIsADU4zLenRY3zVIDRJLPlMIqinGJsuADKL2FcjilRZ_mu0tIjNu_9U-vxEuAaAvlQEALw_wcB

I agree. I've read that Bill Dudleston is an AR fan.

[AR55]

On 1/22/2023 at 5:40 PM, frankmarsi said:

Not minimalize any opinions already expressed here and though I'm not certain but, wasn't 'ferro-fluid' tweeters a selling point when the 11's first came out? 

The AR11 first came out in 1976 without ferrofluid cooled tweeters.  AR didn't introduce ferrofluid cooled tweeters until '77-78', when they introduced the improved AR11.  See the AR11B ad below - note the black tweeter domes:  

 

[genek]

It was. But they probably weren't giving a lot of thought to how well drivers with ferrofluid were going to hold up compared to ones without it 45 years in the future.

[lakecat]

6 hours ago, RoyC said:

The AR-11 tweeter was discussed many moons ago. The tan/yellow dome tweeter was the earliest version of the 2nd generation 3/4" AR tweeter, and does not have ferro-fluid in the vc gap. It tends to be popular among AR-11 aficionados today primarily because ferro-fluid can cause variable response issues due to age and hard use. The early non-ff AR-11 tweeter is presumed to have remained more consistent, and closer to original spec. Why AR chose the dome's color is anyone's guess, but being the first AR tweeter of its kind, it probably had more to do with being the first time AR used a cloth dome. It also clearly differentiated it from the comparatively crude 3/4" black paper dome that preceded it.

As a result of its stiffer suspension, Fs of the Tonegen woofer was in the mid 20's compared to mid/upper-teens for the earlier versions of the woofer original to the 3a and LST. Some of the relatively effortless (lowest) bass response of the original design was therefore sacrificed. The Tonegen woofer, however, was extremely well built and consistent in quality, and is usually found to be in excellent shape today. Since the spider/suspension has had decades to soften, they usually perform very well in all AR models, albeit at the sacrifice of some of the original power handling capability.

Roy

These domes on the tweeters are cloth? It is like a soft plastic to me. I couldn't get the dent out of the dome on the one tweeter as the memory is set in that harder material. Even tried a hair dryer to soften it but nada. They do sound very good though and like this set. Thank you for taking the time to fill me in on the woofers. I am going to remove one to check the manufacture and check the caps. 

[ar_pro]

4 hours ago, RoyC said:

No problem at all, Norman...I would be interested on your take. My opinion was not based on any personal experience with this speaker, just the viability of it as a sales success or it being an indicator of the "rebirth of AR speakers being far behind". You would be the first person I know with any experience with this speaker.

Roy, the (new) KLH brand is actually fairly popular among young people with a few bucks to spend, and with an interest in quickly becoming "audiophiles". The speakers represent a jump over the cheap "active" speakers that represent the starting point for many in that demographic.

Crutchfield and Amazon both carry KLH, they have fairly low-hassle return procedures, and it's impossible to find the product at a discount; it's almost like the old days of "fair trade" audio components, minus the brick & mortar showrooms.

 

[AR55]

13 hours ago, lakecat said:

These domes on the tweeters are cloth? It is like a soft plastic to me.

One pair of my AR11s is a first generation.  It came with 2 blown tweeters.  One tweeter was a Tonegen replacement and the other was an original tan dome tweeter.   I replaced both with 2nd generation AR11 tweeters.  I no longer have the tan dome tweeter, but I remember it being stiffer than the 2nd generation tweeter.  The fabric of the newer tweeter feels the same as those in the tweeters in my friends AR9 speakers and those in my AR9LSi, AR98LS & AR98LSi speakers.  Also, I not sure about the original AR11 tweeters, but the newer tweeters have a domed wood button under the fabric dome that makes it difficult to push the dome in far enough to dent it. 

A case in point, recently while roughhousing, both of my grandsons smashed into one of my daughter’s AR98LS speakers.  The 1½ dome UMR was flattened and the dust caps for both the 8” LMR and 12” woofer were pushed in.  The tweeter, however, was fine.  I haven’t tried to fix it yet.

 

As far as which dome sounds better, I probably wouldn’t be the best judge.  On a good day, I’m lucky to hear much beyond 8,000hz without a lot of help.  I’m sure that I am not alone.

[giovanni56]

On 23/1/2023 at 01:41, frankmarsi said:

@ DavidR "Qualcuno può davvero sentire una differenza tra i woofer AR e Tonegen? Sono così simili nell'aspetto."

Credo che il materiale del cono del woofer Tonegen sia leggermente più sottile rispetto all'originale da 12 pollici. Alcune persone hanno detto di aver trovato

lo stesso che ho io. Parlando in modo non scientifico, il  Tonegen non sembra un cono dal suono inerte o morto quando viene sottoposto al test del tocco delle dita: è vicino ma non esatto.

Poi di nuovo, potrei soffrire di un episodio di "delusione acuta da speakerite AR" e, a giudicare da quanto tempo sono stato esposto direttamente, potrei essere gravemente contaminato.

FM

 

 

 

198

I feel the same way, the Tonegen woofer, in my opinion has a bass timbre, slightly different from the Ar woofer (which I prefer), listening to acoustic bass tracks from Telarc  CDs,  the difference, though small, is noticeable. I compared them on two pairs of AR3a, one pair with Ar woofers and the other with Tonegen woofers.