AR-2ax Project

[frankmarsi]

Hi MichaelT, I've been following your posts.

The gasket stripping you've used appears to look very neat in it's use however, I'm wondering if it's too stiff when compressing the speaker's rim when tightening the mounting bolts down? I say this because I've tried a number of different density foams and I have to say the Parts-Express product works the best. Maybe I missed it but, I'm surprised no one mentioned this to you. Also, if the gasket material used isn't soft enough it may pose problems during the tightening down of said bolts, if too thick. Another potential problem in using foam too dense or thick is with the mid and high frequency drivers as they are usually plastic and will not fare well by bending the outer frame as you tighten down the bolts and may crack.

Also, the speaker's rim may sit too high on the baffle edges. One factor is no matter what you end up using, the 'closed-cell' foam is the product to be used in all cases.

Another thing regarding the holes required for these bolts. Years ago my father showed me how he adjusted his pants belts to fit when they didn't. He used a metal punching tool that shoe-makers and the like used that he somehow acquired. I still have it and wasn't able to locate another until recently. I saw them once in the '99cents' stores that are springing up in different areas. It's a simple scissor like tool and by pressing down the two arms makes a neat and clean hole. I don't exactly recall its price however it wasn't much over $10. or less. It has a number of different size holes mounted on it so it's adjustable for most applications. Though I can easily see that your method is working quite well nonetheless.

I see that you are making good progress with these speakers and will add that although outside opinions are usually very helpful, sometimes the best knowledge is learned by trial and error and teaching oneself.

 

[JKent]

Very professional looking gasket job and I like your hole punch!

This is the stuff Frank wrote about: https://www.parts-express.com/parts-express-speaker-gasketing-tape-1-8-x-1-2-x-50-ft-roll--260-542

You'll have to see if the 1/2" thick gasket you're using is too thick (I suspect it will be fine). If it is too thick and you don't want to place yet another PE order you can use "duct seal", available in the electric dept of Home Despot and the like: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Gardner-Bender-1-lb-Plug-Duct-Seal-Compound-DS-110/100212441

The duct seal is like plasticene clay--just roll it into 1/4" diameter "worms". PE sells it already formed https://www.parts-express.com/parts-express-12-speaker-sealing-caulk-box-of-72-pcs--260-400

But as I said--I think your gaskets will work fine. Keep us posted.

-Kent

[RoyC]

9 minutes ago, JKent said:

Very professional looking gasket job and I like your hole punch!

But as I said--I think your gaskets will work fine. Keep us posted.

-Kent

I agree with Kent. You are using the early woofers with cast baskets, and the original putty was harder to compress than any foam will  be. It should be fine.

Looking good Michael! (I like your hole punch too).

Roy

[Michael T]

Thanks so much guys.

I used the weather stripping because I had it on hand. It actually compresses well and I believe it seals well. (Cheaper can be better .) And yes, someone mentioned the PE gasket, I just thought I'd try what I had.

My midrange drivers actually look like they suffered from a bit of rim warpage from the original goop. Which is why I went with 1/2" instead of the 5/16" I had to hopefully seal any issues there.

Now, as far as the acoustic seal, when I press in the woofers and release them, they return in a little less than a second. They both move at the same rate. Is this acceptable or is there too much air escaping?

[Michael T]

A couple of pics of the speakers on prototype stands I'm designing. Trying to get a mid-century look to them. I'll eventually have a co-worker make them up for me. He can get me real walnut cheap.

As far as listening to these 50+ year old speakers. I'll be making some comparisons with my Onkyo's tonight. I want to make sure all epoxy is fully cured and ready for prime time. My initial thoughts having listened to them at lower volumes, I'm gonna love them. 

My wife, who has been extremely supportive during this project but is reluctant to replace our speakers because she likes the sound and likes that they are black, said to me with a sheepish smile, "I don't hate the sound. I just wish they were black". I think she will get used to the walnut and white .

[RoyC]

4 hours ago, Michael T said:

Now, as far as the acoustic seal, when I press in the woofers and release them, they return in a little less than a second. They both move at the same rate. Is this acceptable or is there too much air escaping?

Michael,

If they return more slowly than when they are out of the cabinet, you're generally good to go. If they are going to be used at very high volume levels, a second or more may be better.

Roy

[Michael T]

43 minutes ago, RoyC said:

If they return more slowly than when they are out of the cabinet, you're generally good to go. If they are going to be used at very high volume levels, a second or more may be better

I'll probably be ok then. 

I have another issue. On one of the woofers, the thick ring near the center of the cone is dry rotted. I noticed it was cracked but didn't realize how bad it was. It buzzed when I played it. I was able to pick it all off with almost no effort.

The ring on the other woofer is much better but there is a half inch piece that came off.

What can I do for this?

[GD70]

That dampening ring helps add some mass to the woofer cone. I'm surprised the other ring didn't also discintegrate. Is the other ring about 1/8th thick? I have no idea of the original density of the foam when new, but maybe go to a craft store. They have black foam sheets in various thicknesses. One may work to cut a replacement ring.

Roy will know more than I regarding the mass of the ring and how critical it is. 

[RoyC]

1 hour ago, GD70 said:

Roy will know more than I regarding the mass of the ring and how critical it is. 

Hey Glenn and Michael,

I don't have any data to share, but It's pretty likely the decomposed foam isn't doing much of anything at this point...and the vast majority of these woofers have rotten foam rings. Rather than remove it I just stabilize it with slightly diluted white surround adhesive (or Aleene's Tacky Glue). Even if it has mostly fallen off I paint some glue over the area where it was. Unlike the 12 inch woofer the foam appears to have been very light and porous. Even with this issue these are still great sounding woofers.

The earliest version of this woofer had the same cone but no foam ring. I've only seen those in a few AR-2's.

Roy

[Michael T]

10 hours ago, RoyC said:

Rather than remove it I just stabilize it with slightly diluted white surround adhesive (or Aleene's Tacky Glue). Even if it has mostly fallen off I paint some glue over the area where it was.

So, what I hear you saying is if I paint a bit of glue on the one to stabilize it, painting around the other one will equalize the mass enough that I shouldn't hear much difference, if any? or just leave them both alone since the one isn't too terrible? leave good enough alone? 

Or possibly, make my own decision based on the information you gave me 

[RoyC]

6 hours ago, Michael T said:

So, what I hear you saying is if I paint a bit of glue on the one to stabilize it, painting around the other one will equalize the mass enough that I shouldn't hear much difference, if any?

Imo, the impact on the sound will not be noticeable one way or the other.

Roy

[Michael T]

43 minutes ago, RoyC said:

the impact on the sound will not be noticeable one way or the other

That's what I thought you were saying. I've been questioning things from the start, I figured why stop now 

[Michael T]

Got to here what my speakers can do tonight. I am pretty darn impressed. I really need some good recordings of some classic rock or jazz and a better space to truly appreciate them, but they are much better than my Onkyo's in all categories. 

Imaging is impossible in my current listening space but the stage did seem to open up some. There is more depth but width is still an issue. Listening to a duet, it almost separated the 2 singers to be side by side.

We are going to be switching our office and spare bedroom so that the office is in the larger room and it will become a media room as well. I should have much better acoustics there.

The final cost of these speakers will be over twice what I paid for my current 5.1 surround system. I took pride in putting together a pretty great system cheap. Now that I am in the home stretch of this restoration, I've decided that I'm pretty darn proud of what I've accomplished. I spent more than I wanted, I got frustrated and whiney, I lashed out at people but in the end we all got through it and I have a great set of speakers.

I cannot thank you all enough. Roger and Glenn, you have been there from the beginning and have been my greatest cheerleaders. Kent, you were the first to greet me in this forum and have given some great advice. Stupidhead, what can I say, your name brought me a certain amount of joy . Roy, we had a rocky start, but I think the road has smoothed out. The time you spent helping me is greatly appreciated and I look forward to getting your input on future projects. And all the others, you are all generous people with good hearts and great advice.

I'll continue to post pictures of my cabinet restoration, but at this point I'm going to take Kent's advice and stick with one person to advise me with it. Guess what, Glenn, you're the lucky winner . Actually, I have a real good idea of where I'm going with it so I should be pretty low maintenance at this point.

Again, thank you all, so very much.

[JKent]

8 hours ago, Michael T said:

I'm pretty darn proud of what I've accomplished. I spent more than I wanted, I got frustrated . . .

Yup. You're hooked 

Each subsequent project (and there WILL be more) gets easier and there will be fewer costly goofs and less frustration. The satisfaction of bringing half-century-old speakers back to life in terms of both sound and visual aesthetics can be a source of pride. And whatever your total expenditure was I'll bet you could not buy new speakers that sound as good for that price.

Glenn is definitely the cabinet repair guru. I usually just fill chips with brown epoxy but he meticulously cuts bits of veneer to fit together like a jigsaw puzzle. Glenn's patches are invisible!

Good luck and keep us posted.

-Kent

[Michael T]

1 hour ago, JKent said:

And whatever your total expenditure was I'll bet you could not buy new speakers that sound as good for that price.

Looking around eBay and Craig's list, I don't think I could find a pair of AR-2ax's totally restored and all the bugs worked out for much less than $350, which is my total expenditure once I purchase a couple ARinc repro. badges. I'll get with you next week about that, Kent.

I do have the option of selling the foam surround woofers and their adapters once I get them re-foamed. I already purchased the kit (not included in figuring my total expenditure) so anything I get over $26 I can subtract from my expenditure for the speakers. So all in all, I guess I did pretty good.

I am actually considering looking for a different brand, if I do this again. I'm thing KLH or Advent. A guy I work with is going to give me a pair of vintage Fishers. I know that they aren't exactly high quality, but they are free and if nothing else they might be good for practicing cabinet restoration.

Just another note on listening to the AR's, my yamaha receiver is 90wpc (probably pretty close to true RMS given what I have read about this model), the volume goes from -80db (can't really hear anything until -60) up to +16db. At 0db the speakers are more than loud enough (too loud for everyday listening, -20db is a comfortable level to be able to talk to someone in the same room) and just as clean and smooth as a baby's butt. Again, I'm so very happy that I bought these and took the time to restore them.

[JKent]

A few random thoughts...

Selling the foam woofers will indeed net you some bucks. One option may be to leave them as-is and include the foam kit. Anyone looking for AR drivers is probably a DIY guy and may want to the re-foam himself.

There are lots of good KLH speakers and one advantage is they all have cloth surrounds. I'm working on some 23s right now and they are really nice speakers. Twelves are great, but very big. Fives are comparable to AR-3a's. Seventeens are nice. Twenties are 4 ohm Seventeens. Thirty-Threes are very nice ported KLH speakers that are often overlooked and may therefore be had for peanuts. There are several others. Sometimes KLH took essentially identical speakers and gave them different model designations. The best of the lot is supposedly the Nines. I've never heard them. They were big electrostatic beasts made by Janszen in collaboration with Henry Kloss.

Fisher is funny. Back in the day Fisher electronics were fantastic. They were less well known for their speakers but my understanding is they were very good IF you are talking about classic original made-in-the-USA Fisher. Unfortunately Fisher, like AR, KLH and other great American brands ended up being sold and devolved into cheap crap under a good name. In Fisher's case the name was sold to Emerson, later Sanyo. Maybe some others along the way. I'm thinking any Fisher speakers in a real walnut veneer cabinets would be the early ones and may be good. But free is always good. When you get them post photos and give the model number.

I know nothing about Fisher speakers but found this from AK's Fisher expert TheRed1:

Quote

To be able to quickly enter into the rapidly expanding small-box component speaker market of the late 1950s, Fisher contracted with Bill Hecht's United Speaker Systems, Inc. of East Orange, NJ. That exclusive relationship lasted until Avery Fisher sold his company to Emerson in 1969. The first product of this partnership was the XP-1 which sold for $129.50. Introduced in 1959 for the 1960 model year, early versions are shown with an "egg crate" style grill and the classic script 'TheFisher' badge. Later version are shown with a standard cloth grill. 

-Kent

[Michael T]

First grill is done.

[samberger0357]

 

Looking great! Congratulations on a fantastic job. 

[GD70]

1 hour ago, Michael T said:

First grill is done.

Very nice Michael!

[Michael T]

Thanks guys. 

[Michael T]

3 hours ago, GD70 said:

Very nice Michael!

I'm noticing some rippling of the fabric along the edge. What can I do to avoid this on my other grill? I worked from side to side starting from the center and working my way out. It almost seems to have gotten worse since I finished. You can see it a bit in the above pic, especially near the top right.

[GD70]

4 minutes ago, Michael T said:

I'm noticing some rippling of the fabric along the edge. What can I do to avoid this on my other grill? I worked from side to side starting from the center and working my way out. It almost seems to have gotten worse since I finished.

Pull it tighter where the rippling is and staple. Did you glue or staple the fabric?

You can also use a water mister, mist the fabric and use the wifes hair drier, which will tighten it up a bit. You may need to do this several times.

[Michael T]

I stapled it. Kept the staples pretty close. I thought I had heard something about misting and heating before. I might try that

[lARrybody]

Michael your 2ax speakers are really looking good. I never know where to place the "a" badge on my 2a's and early 2ax's. I have seen them placed on opposite corners on the long side and across the bottom side. I am really digging how you placed them in the diagonal corner. Was just wondering how AR placed them originally. 

[JKent]

1 hour ago, GD70 said:

You can also use a water mister, mist the fabric and use the wifes hair drier, which will tighten it up a bit.

This is what I always do. That's why natural fiber cloth is best--poly won't shrink

Kent