AR-2ax Project

[genek]

On 1/6/2018 at 6:54 PM, RoyC said:

you pissed away a ton of money on all the wrong items. 

I'm pretty sure that if you look up the definition of "hobby" in the dictionary, that's what it says.

I don't see any reason to kill this thread, but if anyone in it said anything they feel...embarrassed about after the fact, PM me and I can delete single posts.

[ra.ra]

I took leave of this thread several days ago when it seemed that my persistence had become something of an annoyance. After a couple refreshing days of winter hibernation, I poked my head out of the cave long enough to see that the winter storm had turned into a horizontal sleet-driven blizzard with gale force winds, so I went back to bed so I could saw a few more logs. Peeking out again today, I see that the storm has blown over and the sun is shining again. Hallelujah, winter is over!

Before the OP posted here, I was one of the CSP members who was advising Michael T in another online universe. Of interest to me was finding an enthusiastic newbie for vintage AR speakers who happens to hail from my own home state. With the exception of my suggestion that it wouldn't be over-the-top to increase one's max bid for these speakers to go slightly north of $30, all of my nudges have been aimed at a budget restoration - - - i.e., no new-old cloth woofers, and no new linen grille cloth. Regarding the original pots, those looked like they were fully cooked, so the replacement cost of new L-pads (approx. $5 or $7 apiece) was a wise and reasonable investment. Similarly, the suggestion to use new Carli caps is also a great bang-for-buck line item cost. 

Many respected and informed members have chimed in here with sage advice, cheerleading support, wise suggestions, and overall good intent, so it disturbs me to see any guidance suggesting that all-but-one singular voice should be disregarded in any restoration efforts. Even when I have strong and sincere respect for that particular voice, I could not disagree more with this sentiment, despite the OP's difficulty in wading thru the "differing opinions". If one cannot tolerate various opinions, it is best to stay off of internet forums. Nonetheless, there has been very useful input to the OP in this thread from a good handful of CSP members....not just one.    

Along with another CSP member, my offline communication with the OP has been nothing but inquisitive, respectful, informative, appreciative, and full of good humor. With great pleasure I was able to provide a component needed to meet his restoration objectives, and his sincere and prompt gratitude has made this travail all worthwhile. I do really hope he enjoys the 2ax speakers, and that the physical, intellectual, and emotional repair process was worthy of the time and energy spent.

[Michael T]

2 hours ago, JKent said:

I'm sorry if I added to the problem.

Kent you didn't add to the confusion. Your suggestions were taken seriously by me and I truly appreciate them.

I have gone back and forth on money vs oem. Buying the woofers really made me realize how deep I had got. With all the little nickel and dime stuff (insulation, badges, possibly surround sealant, electric stapler, epoxy, etc.) I am glad I went with l-pads and I will be going with the less expensive linen and repro badges. If, god forbid, I decide to make this a hobby, I will be so much better prepared.

As i said a few posts back, it is good to hear the different options available to me. I just allowed it to overwhelm me. As crazy as this thread is, it is a treasure trove of information and options.

 

[Michael T]

11 minutes ago, ra.ra said:

If one cannot tolerate various opinions, it is best to stay off of internet forums.

Ra.ra, you have been a grounding rod for me throughout my crazy rabbit trail of a guest. You have a talent for helping me see reality. 

I am not unfamiliar with the way these forums work, I've just never participated before. I am starting to look down the road a bit and I've been researching turntables and looking at the stuff that is readily available. Given what I've read, I will need to pay anywhere from $150 to $1500 in order to get something worthwhile, depending on who you talk to.. You probably won't see me asking for opinions on different brands and models in any forum.

[JKent]

41 minutes ago, ra.ra said:

it disturbs me to see any guidance suggesting that all-but-one singular voice should be disregarded in any restoration efforts.

Robert,

I don't mean to disturb anyone but clearly Michael has been overwhelmed by all the good intentions. As I said, I'm trying to remember my very first speaker project, when I had no idea what a capacitor or a potentiometer or an L-pad were.  John O'Hanlon told me very specifically what capacitor (Zen) and what L-pad to buy and how to wire them. I knew absolutely nothing then and having one experienced member tell me exactly what to do was very helpful. I'm "assuming" that Michael is/was in a similar position and what you may see as lots of helpful tips may be seen by him as a bombardment of conflicting and confusing information. And I disagree with your opinion that "If one cannot tolerate various opinions, it is best to stay off of internet forums". Michael is a newbie and I believe he was looking for beginner-level guidance. It's not an intolerance of different opinions, just a lack of the basic knowledge needed to assess those opinions.

If I were working on my 4x's today I would welcome different points of view, especially from you because I consider you the AR-4 series expert. But I think a novice would do better with a single knowledgable mentor.

-Kent

[Michael T]

Holy crap ( I say that with love and a smirk on my face)

I really don't like drama but as is obvious, I have a special way to generate it.

Y'all don' know really know me so I'll make sure you know that I'm not upset, I'm not expressing frustration, I'm using lighthearted sarcasm to be funny and break the direction things have heading.

I love that you guys are fighting over me but I just hope that y'all respect me in the morning.

I went through and cleaned up my rants in order to eliminate as much off topic fluff as I could. Just FYI.

[ra.ra]

To Kent: there is nobody (aside from a few hundred other members) who appreciates your eternal optimistic good cheer and useful, expansive contributions to this forum as much as I do. It is always a pleasure to read your upbeat advice and resourceful helpfulness, and much like yourself, it wasn't that long ago that I had never encountered my own first intimate relationship with a capacitor. And look at me now: I spew forth on a regular basis just like Old Faithful!

That said, I do understand your perspective on Michael's confusion as a result of information overload - - I, too, was sensing this at various points - - but I just had to call you out on your dismissal of any second (or third....or fourth....or....) opinion from other experienced forum members. There are simply too many valued minds here to reduce this forum to an autocracy - - otherwise, we should re-name this CSP section as "Wayne's World", or something similar. The primary intent of your advice might have been spot-on, but the exclusionary delivery raised some hackles - - for me, at least. So.....fist bump - - - good-good - - - no harm, no foul. 

To Michael: I know this has been a trial by tribulation, but from the start, you have been an enthusiastic, inquisitive, and receptive patient for this mongrel group of armchair physicians and analysts. Stay plugged into this supportive group - - - we want to know how this project turns out, and then we will send you out on search for your second pair of vintage AR speakers.   

 

[Michael T]

40 minutes ago, ra.ra said:

and then we will send you out on search for your second pair of vintage AR speakers.  

Please, sir, may I have another.

Heart says 3a, realism says 2 series and wife says "really?" 

[Michael T]

Actually, I've seen some interesting advents and genesis physics out there that look like fun.

Oh, and a pair of wharfedale SRB-3 deluxe. Odd looking creatures. They need surrounds and some cabinet work. Could be fun.

Why play in the water I've already tested, let's jump into uncharted seas.

[JKent]

9 hours ago, Michael T said:

Please, sir, may I have another.

Yup. You're one of us! 

[lakecat]

On ‎1‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 7:22 PM, ar_pro said:

I really love the 2205, lakecat - it's such a well-designed & built amplifier that performs so nicely with virtually any load. 

Low-impedance AS speakers, electrostatics, planar-magnetics - no problem; it's like a sledgehammer, wrapped in velvet.

Never, ever sell it. 

Glad to see someone else has this beast...:) I got it for the LST's. After a six month wait, I am finally getting the MX-117 for it tomorrow. Tom Manley said it is one of the best he has had for specs, shape....etc. Can't wait!

[RoyC]

On 1/8/2018 at 11:06 PM, ra.ra said:

And look at me now: I spew forth on a regular basis just like Old Faithful!

That said, I do understand your perspective on Michael's confusion as a result of information overload - - I, too, was sensing this at various points - - but I just had to call you out on your dismissal of any second (or third....or fourth....or....) opinion from other experienced forum members. There are simply too many valued minds here to reduce this forum to an autocracy - - otherwise, we should re-name this CSP section as "Wayne's World", or something similar. The primary intent of your advice might have been spot-on, but the exclusionary delivery raised some hackles - - for me, at least. So.....fist bump - - - good-good - - - no harm, no foul.

Ra.ra/Robert

Since I'm the person you are so concerned about becoming, as you put it, the "all-but-one singular voice", I felt compelled to reply.  

First of all I agree with you. You do "spew forth" early and often on a regular basis in most threads, so I don't think you have anything to worry about in terms of your voice not being heard.  I'm glad you do. Members like you and Kent frequently post well written, patient, helpful information. I usually lay back until called upon or unless I see the possibility of misleading or incomplete information being posted. I have absolutely no desire or motivation to post as frequently as you do, or carry the responsibility of being a singular voice. As it is, I spend much time assisting folks through PM's and email.

Unlike you, I have been repairing the old beasts for over 45 years. When forum members disagree or appear to have conflicting opinions it may be confusing to a newcomer. Sometimes a more experienced or general perspective can be helpful. Due to the unusual nature of this thread I supported Kent's decision. I don't think it jeopardized you or any other forum member's status, and Mike and I are now communicating productively.

Btw, if you need some clarification regarding driver polarity send me a PM. I believe that is about the time you went on vacation.

Roy

[Michael T]

I am sure that most (all) of you are ready to see proof of progress in the form of pics. I have a few for you.
 I finished up my crossovers and have them installed. They are not as neatly laid out as I had imaged them to be. This is primarily because I wanted to have enough wire to tie it to the sides of the cabinet and I used the wire I had around which is 16 and 14 gauge THHN which is fairly stiff. It is hard to work with in smaller applications like this. Also the larger gauge wire made it impossible to get it through the holes in the tabs of the L-Pads so soldering would have been extremely difficult. This required me to use some spade connectors I had around. Definitely not ideal but they are secure and having tied down the wires this should keep them secure enough. Going forward I plan to have some 18 or 20 gage MTW wire of various colors. This has a high strand count and is much more flexible making it much easier to work with. I will probably go back into the speaker at some point and fix this.
I am glad that I took the time to carefully look over the existing wires in the speaker. I found that the yellow wire on one of the mid-range drivers had been rubbing the magnet for quite some time. I included pic of this. I will be cutting out the bad part and re-soldering it.
That’s it for now. If someone has a strong objection to me using the spade connectors please voice it. It will set me back a bit (time and money) but if it is really a bad idea, I’d like to know.
 

 

[JKent]

Lookin good! Thanks for the pics.

Crimp connectors, tightly crimped, are excellent.

I'll admit I had to look up MTW wire https://www.distributorwire.com/blog/machine-tool-wire/  Here's a suggestion for future wiring projects: Use "marine grade" (or what's called TEW in the linked article) 18 ga wire. This is what was originally used: 18AWG tinned stranded wire, color coded. 

In electronics (as opposed to house wiring) the ground wire is black. In these speakers the positive wires on the woofers, mids and tweets are usually red, blue and yellow. Sometimes there are green wires.

So.... Your wiring looks great--I would not change anything. Crimps are good. Wire nuts are fine. IF you buy wire for a future project I'd recommend 18 ga stranded tinned wire in a variety of colors.

-Kent

[Michael T]

48 minutes ago, JKent said:

Lookin good! Thanks for the pics.

Thank you so much, for the compliments and the advice. I actually avoided asking what kind of wiring to use because I would have felt compelled to buy the correct kind,  not because of confusion but because my OCD tendencies would have kicked in and I would have spent more money and time and bought it .

I am familiar with electronics color codes, (not saying this defensively but just an acknowledgement). In fact with my electronics background I briefly considered etching a circuit board for the crossover (again, OCD tendencies), and this may be something I look at in a future project. (Yes I do actually have a pretty decent electronics background, its just been years since I have been in a job or hobby that utilizes it much, so much is now lost).

 

Anyway. It looks like the weather is warming enough that I can work in the garage without freezing my ..... of, so time to get going on those cabinets. And also waiting on epoxy to arrive so I can get the masonite rings on the spiders of my woofers repaired.

[Michael T]

I was thinking this morning, maybe there should be some kind of disclaimer at the beginning of this thread. Stating that there is great information here, there is however a bit of drama that should be overlooked.

With my project so close to completion (baring any unforeseen issues) I have come up with a bit of a summary of what I have learned (some statements are tongue in cheek but ultimately the point behind them is valid and never intended to be mean ):

First and foremost, there are a number of people here that are very knowledgeable about AR speakers and their advice can be trusted, but if there is a question of validity or effectiveness, Roy knows best. If you feel overwhelmed send Roy a PM, he has been more than willing to clarify things for me. A small aside to this, if you carefully read his posts the reasons for his advice is typically there.

Second, and just as important, there is more than one road to bringing these old babies back to life; some based on money savings, some on keeping as strictly as possible to OEM standards and anywhere in between. It is best to state your intent as clearly up front as possible even if it is that you aren’t sure yet what you want.

Third, be patient with your project. Do not make snap decisions about purchases, take your time with your cabinet work and make sure you make a list of all the things you might need, the AR-3a restoration guide is a good source for this (if fact it is a great source for most all of the information you need for the AR-3a as well as the 2ax).

Fourth, and this is a biggie, responding to posts before you have had a chance to process what is being said is a good way to put your foot in your mouth and alienate others. In text, it is difficult to read the intent of the writer at times and feelings can be stepped on when this was not the intent. An aside to this, don’t call your most important resource names and if you have an issue with someone, take care of it in a PM, not in front of the whole forum. (ra.ra pointed this one out to me )

Finally, make sure you can sort out opinion from fact. If you take your time, you can usually discern the difference.

As far as a summary of what I learned about restoring my speakers and the ultimate route that I took…maybe later, depends on interest.

[ra.ra]

12 hours ago, RoyC said:

Since I'm the person you are so concerned about becoming....

We clearly have a misunderstanding. PM sent.

51 minutes ago, Michael T said:

......there is more than one road to bringing these old babies back to life..... be patient with your project. Do not make snap decisions about purchases....

All great lessons learned, and excellent advice for future restorers. Terrific pics, great project summary.

[GD70]

Hey Michael,

Nice to see your crossover progress. Looks good. Check it off the list!

When you glue the masonite rings, do it in the house at room temps, which I'm sure you already know.

Forge ahead. By next weekend they could be singing!

Glenn

[RoyC]

2 hours ago, Michael T said:

If you feel overwhelmed send Roy a PM, he has been more than willing to clarify things for me. A small aside to this, if you carefully read his posts the reasons for his advice is typically there.

there is more than one road to bringing these old babies back to life; some based on money savings, some on keeping as strictly as possible to OEM standards and anywhere in between.

Thanks, Mike...always willing to be of assistance. As I mentioned above, I personally appreciate members like ra.ra and Kent, who do much heavy lifting in this forum. Along with sound guidance, they have the patience and skill to keep threads like this one going in a positive direction.

"More than one road" indeed...Hey, your project is looking good! It is fun to see the personal spin on these projects. Make sure to place some stuffing material under the wires on the cabinet walls when you get to that stage. Years ago, I had a pair of KLH 6's driving me crazy with a persistent buzz at certain frequencies. It turned out to be a wire vibrating against the cabinet wall.  In fact, you may want to use the zip ties without the bases on the walls and suspend the wires in the stuffing. Like Kent, I have a personal preference for tinned (18ga) marine wire similar to the original AR wire (just easy to solder and the available colors can be matched to original). Regardless, your amazing crimp job and very neat wiring should work great!

Roy

[Michael T]

10 minutes ago, RoyC said:

Make sure to place some stuffing material under the wires on the cabinet walls when you get to that stage

Yeah, that makes sense. I was actually trying to make it easier to stuff the cabinets but I see your point. Thanks for the tips and the compliments

[Michael T]

I updated the drawings per advice from Roy and ra.ra. These should be the final drafts. I updated the original post on page 5.

[Michael T]

7 hours ago, GD70 said:

Forge ahead. By next weekend they could be singing!

I hope so. You have been so very helpful. I tried to do a video of my current onkyo speakers and it turns out our relatively expensive canon rebel camera has poor audio. It was rather muffled. Oh well. Time to get a set of stereo microphones .

[GD70]

On January 10, 2018 at 10:09 PM, Michael T said:

I hope so. You have been so very helpful. I tried to do a video of my current onkyo speakers and it turns out our relatively expensive canon rebel camera has poor audio. It was rather muffled. Oh well. Time to get a set of stereo microphones .

Hi Michael,

Glad to help any way I can. Looking forward to pics of these all done!

If you have an iPhone or other smart phone, try a video with that. 

Glenn

[Michael T]

Well, I got the tweets and mids installed in the cabinets and tested them. They both sound really good. The tweets sound pretty strong, even a bit cleaner than the dual tweeters on my onkyos. Can't wait to get the woofers in and see what they can do.

[Michael T]

Currently waiting for epoxy to set on second woofer. Wanted to share s little technique I learned at work for making bolt holes in gaskets.

I used 3/4" wide 1/2" thick weather stripping. It's a dense rubber foam, it's sticky on one side and should make a good seal. I laid the stripping around the recessed area where the speaker mounts.

I took a 1/4" brass hose barb and sharpened the end then put a pipe cap on the threaded end of the fitting. I then located the bolt holes using an exacto knife. I then took my little tool and gave it a couple taps with a small hammer then twisted it while pushing down. If the barb is sharp enough you will pull the gasket material out with the barb leaving a nice clean hole. If not you may have to dig a bit with a knife or razor.