AR-2ax Project

[Michael T]

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[ar_pro]

8 hours ago, lakecat said:

Roy....I only asked as most of the "classic" receivers can't handle four ohms at high volume....and that was a lot of damage. The 3a's have shut down three of my old but recapped receivers that are rated at 120 watts per or higher when playing bass heavy music at 50-60 watts or little higher.

That's why I purchased a McIntosh 2205.

I really love the 2205, lakecat - it's such a well-designed & built amplifier that performs so nicely with virtually any load. 

Low-impedance AS speakers, electrostatics, planar-magnetics - no problem; it's like a sledgehammer, wrapped in velvet.

Never, ever sell it. 

[RoyC]

7 hours ago, Michael T said:

I am in a state of frustration again as can be seen in recent posts. While Roy stated that he tries to keep the information concise and correct, there is a butt load of information presented in this thread as well as many differing opinions. I somewhat regret some of the decisions I have made such as dropping $150 on cloth surround woofers and wishing I had actually tried my pots before buying the l-pads. I am not blaming anyone but myself. I should have taken this one step at a time and then decided what I wanted to spend money on based on my experience.

Huh? That's right Mike, you pissed away a ton of money on all the wrong items. 

Now get to work and show us you are capable of completing the project...assuming you are able to wade through that daunting pile of "differing opinions".

Roy

[Michael T]

?

[RoyC]

12 hours ago, lakecat said:

You seem to get annoyed easy...chill.

Roy....I only asked as most of the "classic" receivers can't handle four ohms at high volume....and that was a lot of damage. The 3a's have shut down three of my old but recapped receivers that are rated at 120 watts per or higher when playing bass heavy music at 50-60 watts or little higher.

That's why I purchased a McIntosh 2205.

Hey Jeff,

The Pioneer receiver was brought to the shop and tested very well. Remember our conversation about the purpose of the "loudness" switch/button, and why it should not be used at higher volume levels? That's what happened. It has been a factor with most of the "blown" speakers brought in by younger folks in recent years.

Roy

[Michael T]

2 hours ago, RoyC said:

assuming you are able to wade through that daunting pile of "differing opinions

Between here and AK there have been enough "differing opinions" to be a bit daunting to a newbie. I guess I should be thankful for being given different options and hearing what different people think about them. It's all in how one chooses to look at it 

2 hours ago, RoyC said:

Huh? That's right Mike, you pissed away a ton of money on all the wrong items. 

 I know the money was well spent. It's just that $325 is a good chunk of change and I don't want to blow this. 

If I may, I have a few questions I'd like to ask.

I was cleaning up my woofers and found that there is s small area about an inch long where the surround is separating from the cone on one of them. What type of adhesive should I use to repair this?

What adhesive should I use to attach the masonite rings to the baskets?

Finally, I assume I shouldn't be able to see light through the surround cloth. I think I will need some of the magic goop that I read about in this forum somewhere.

Yes I'm feeling better. Again I'm sorry for puking my frustration all over you guys, I can see how it would look like I don't appreciate all the help. But I really do.

[stupidhead]

wow, this has been an interesting thread. I seem to recall a thread a few years ago (maybe Stimpy) that took similar ups, downs and side routes.

this hobby is so much fun, and everybody approaches it and implements it in their own way. some are in it to make a buck or two, some are just building (or re-building) pieces of recent history, some for other reasons. in my opinion and the approach I have developed is OEM is OEM and mods are mods. then there is that fine line between replacing original parts with either current equivalents or NOS. Then there is refinishing and all the possibilities  for that, and then the grille cloths. In a nutshell my approach is to find specimens with working original drivers, evaluate and revitalize as needed internal components or replace with new, quality replacements as needed and never try to re-engineer.

some come to this forum (or other) and are a ball of fire initially, but often peter out. in less than a month this thread has gone up down and all around, veering as they often do from the original intent of OP and circling back ultimately. one of the characteristics of the forum over others is there is very little bravado by members. just a group of folks with similar interests who unselfishly share knowledge or seek answers to questions they may have. it is still the internet after all and the anonymous nature of forums like this can sometimes lead to a thread becoming contentious on some level.

$150 for a set of OEM woofers is a bit high but at the end of the day they are now yours. the original to speakers as bought woofers have some value and can be sold to recoup some funds. a shame the surrounds are not intact, but this can be saved. I have overlapped a small piece of thin cloth over breaches in cloth and use minimal adhesive, following up with some of Roy's special sauce. some pictures of what you have will be helpful in giving more specific guidance.

take your time

[stan461]

Michael T.,

If everyone would hold a grudge forever, then no one would be talking to anyone.

Thanks for your help and I look forward to sharing the successful completeion of your project.

 

[Michael T]

The woofs wouldn't have been so bad if I hadn't had to pay shipping, that's what I get for not having patience.

I've included a pic of the separation that I spoke of. The entire surround does not appear as well glued as on the other woofer but I think if I get this patched it will be ok.

I have a refoam kit with glue, would that work?

I'll be pmimg Roy about his special sauce because I'm pretty sure I will need to coat my surrounds, unless that sauce typically lets light through, then I'll wait to see if there is a good seal once the speakers are back together.

[RoyC]

3 hours ago, Michael T said:

I have a refoam kit with glue, would that work?

I'll be pmimg Roy about his special sauce because I'm pretty sure I will need to coat my surrounds, unless that sauce typically lets light through, then I'll wait to see if there is a good seal once the speakers are back together.

Michael,

If I tell you what glue to use, and you get a different suggestion from another member or from AK, are you going to add that to your "differing opinions" list and prevent you from making the repair?  Are you going to "regret" your decision before you actually implement it? This is the problem with this thread. If you believe there are specific "differing opinions" which will have a material impact on the outcome of your project, voice them one last time. This thread is becoming one for the record books.

You can help yourself out a bit by choosing one forum for this project. Although I am an AK forum member, I find it to be far less helpful, and sometimes misleading, when it comes to AR speaker information. Fortunately a number of CSP members are usually present to straighten them out over there.

Do not purchase any surround sealant (it's expensive) until your speakers are completed and the woofers are installed. A determination can be made at that time, and the treatment applied if necessary. When you reinstall your drivers just make sure the cabinet hole gaskets/seals are in good shape

Roy

[Michael T]

k

 

[RoyC]

19 minutes ago, Michael T said:

Roy, I think that you can go ahead and close this thread.

Very sorry to read all that, Michael.

It's not up to me to close a thread. Though long, it contains some good information, and will likely prove useful to more than a few people. Try to enjoy your 2ax project one step at a time.

Roy

PS Yes, you can use your foam surround adhesive for the woofer surround issue shown in your photo.

[Michael T]

.

[samberger0357]

3 hours ago, RoyC said:

Very sorry to read all that, Michael.

It's not up to me to close a thread. Though long, it contains some good information, and will likely prove useful to more than a few people. Try to enjoy your 2ax project one step at a time.

Roy

PS Yes, you can use your foam surround adhesive for the wto oofer surround issue shown in your photo.

May I say that I have sincerely enjoyed reading through all the posts of this thread, and I'm positive others will find it extremely helpful down the road as they attempt to do what has been done in this thread, finding and repairing a classic pair of AR speakers. I have far less technical experience then most(perhaps all) participating in this thread, and yet have found it helpful in considering certain repairs that I may attempt to my beloved 2ax's down the road. The CSP is truly a forum of folks who are passionate, highly intelligent and highly articulate in their knowledge of audio, and to be able to have a 6 page thread to bring forth that knowledge is indeed valuable, and very enlightening.  I would hope that the thread not be closed, but rather kept open, and that Michael, you continue down the challenging road towards completion of your original goal to getting the speakers not only up and running, but back as close to their original glory as you can. I think I can say that we are all behind you, have complete confidence in your skills and ability, and are looking forward to the day, no matter how long it takes, until you complete the journey. I know I'll be rooting for you, and feel certain most, if not all reading this thread, will be also. In the meantime, continued good luck to you, and thanks to all who continue to help him and continue to make the CSP a fun, and educational place to hang out. 

 

-sam

 

 

 

[Michael T]

1 hour ago, samberger0357 said:

  I would hope that the thread not be closed, but rather kept open, and that Michael, you continue down the challenging road towards completion of your original goal to getting the speakers not only up and running, but back as close to their original glory as you can. I think I can say that we are all behind you, have complete confidence in your skills and ability, and are looking forward to the day, no matter how long it takes, until you complete the journey. I know I'll be rooting for you, and feel certain most, if not all reading this thread, will be also. In the meantime, continued good luck to you, and thanks to all who continue to help him and continue to make the CSP a fun, and educational place to hang out. 

Sam, you are too kind.

If for no other reason than the time and money invested I will finish these speakers . JK. Actually, it will be to honor those who shared their time, knowledge and patience. And they will be worthy when I'm done. 

I still think that I need to step back from the forums. I've got plenty I can do with the knowledge I've been given here, as you've said there is a huge amount here.

[stupidhead]

21 hours ago, Michael T said:

The woofs wouldn't have been so bad if I hadn't had to pay shipping, that's what I get for not having patience.

I've included a pic of the separation that I spoke of. The entire surround does not appear as well glued as on the other woofer but I think if I get this patched it will be ok.

I have a refoam kit with glue, would that work?

I'll be pmimg Roy about his special sauce because I'm pretty sure I will need to coat my surrounds, unless that sauce typically lets light through, then I'll wait to see if there is a good seal once the speakers are back together.

glad to see it isn't a rip. should be an easy fix with proper adhesive. remember that any addition of sealants, glues or other adds to the total mass of the driver and can give a negative result. always go light with applications of whatever.

as for light coming through, not really a proper thing to focus on. many things that are "sealed" will allow light through. it is more about air not getting through the material. Once you proceed with all internal work and are seating the drivers back in place, a simple test can be done to determine if the special sauce is needed.

I understand pulling back a bit, and truly sorry to hear of your issues but this hobby can be very good for self confidence. especially when you are getting guidance from qualified folks like Roy et al.

pull back to where you are comfortable and please know that you haven't wasted anybody's time here, all members are rooting for you.

[stan461]

Michael T.,

Hang in there. We'll be here whenever you decide to jump back in.

All the best.

[Michael T]

K

[RoyC]

1 hour ago, Michael T said:

Roy, You seem to be one of the most respected members of this forum but yet you are the only one who acted like a dick about my little breakdowns. Everyone here has given me encouragement and have prodded me on. a couple even PMed me to talk me down. I have to say that I lost a bit of respect for you, for whatever that is worth.

 

I'm not a mind reader, Mike, and I didn't know about the personal issues you felt compelled to share with the forum...which I see you have now deleted. I was simply trying to get you to stop spinning your wheels, and be specific about what was "frustrating" you about the responses you received. Your posts were becoming repetitious, and responding to them was becoming exhausting. 

Good luck with your project.

Roy

[stupidhead]

uhhhh.....really?

this thread will live in infamy.

kitchen bound?

[Michael T]

Just call me the drama queen. Not really. I sent a pm to Roy and I want to publicly apologize to him. What I said was wrong and out of line. I know Roy is a great guy and I have no excuse for tearing him down.

Perhaps I should go through and clean things up a bit? No sense in scaring off perspective members 

[RoyC]

15 minutes ago, Michael T said:

Just call me the drama queen. Not really. I sent a pm to Roy and I want to publicly apologize to him. What I said was wrong and out of line. I know Roy is a great guy and I have no excuse for tearing him down.

Perhaps I should go through and clean things up a bit? No sense in scaring off perspective members 

All good, Michael...I don't think it will scare anyone off. They will be more concerned about speaker fixin'.

Roy

[Michael T]

1 hour ago, RoyC said:

I was simply trying to get you to stop spinning your wheels, and be specific about what was "frustrating" you about the responses you received.

Honestly, the biggest issue I was having is that I was hoping to get a straight forward liof items that I needed to restore the speakers. I didn't realize how subjective this could all be. One example, Kent had suggested that I get Carli caps because you, Roy, had recommended them because of this and that. Then you later express that others will work fine. This may seem like a little thing but in my mind, in a forum of people who appear to believe that things should be done a certain way to reproduce certain sounds, this tripped me up. 

This is one example, and the others are probably equally insignificant but without any idea of what I am looking for from these speakers musically, I just don't know who's ideas will work for me. Obviously, some of the different suggestions will produce different affects.

I'm actually about done with my crossovers, just had to pick up some connectors today. And should have them done tonight. I'm going to go ahead and put them back together and listen to them, hopefully tomorrow. Then I'll get some Irish linen from Michael's. Then get the cabs looking pretty.

[RoyC]

1 hour ago, Michael T said:

Honestly, the biggest issue I was having is that I was hoping to get a straight forward liof items that I needed to restore the speakers. I didn't realize how subjective this could all be. One example, Kent had suggested that I get Carli caps because you, Roy, had recommended them because of this and that. Then you later express that others will work fine. This may seem like a little thing but in my mind, in a forum of people who appear to believe that things should be done a certain way to reproduce certain sounds, this tripped me up.

Actually that frustrates me as well, Michael....for a different reason. I frankly believe capacitor debates are absurd, which is why I try to be more general in some recommendations these days. I would love to line up our golden-eared capacitor police someday and defy them to discern the sonic differences of the capacitors used in a group of restorations. I originally suggested Carli (mylar caps in general) to some forum members because I believe they are a good value compared to higher priced film caps, which are so often recommended (especially in the AK forum). Later, I suggested they may have some electrical attributes (ESR) of the original caps. I have never said they are the best or only caps to use.

For the record, you have made good choices!

Roy

[JKent]

I don't want to beat this to death and I'm trying to put myself in your shoes as a novice, Michael. I suggested Carli caps because they are good, cheap, readily available and yes--Roy does like them too. But unfortunately there is often a lot of goofy debate about capacitors. 

Film caps are usually preferred because they last longer but non-polar electrolytics are fine, and of the commonly available film caps Dayton, Solen, Carli and others work just fine. I think Roy, a few pages back, recommended the Parts Express (Dayton) caps to another member only because it's nice to order everything from one supplier and avoid excess shipping costs. I thought keeping costs down was important to you and that btw is why I suggested the CharlesCraft linen from Michaels as an alternative to the pricey Weichelt "lambswool" linen from 123 Stitch. In the case of the capacitors they are all equally good. In the case of the grille cloth the lambswool linen is clearly superior to the CharlesCraft but for the price (about $10 for 2 speakers if you use coupons and if you have a local Michaels store) the CharlesCraft stuff is nice.

When I first restored a pair of speakers (AR-4x) I had one guy guiding me. I can see how apparently conflicting recommendations can cause frustration and I'm sorry if I added to the problem. My advice: Roy has guided you well so ignore everyone else 

Anyway, the AR-2ax is a really nice speaker and I hope when they're finished you will feel some pride in a job well done and that you will enjoy them!

-Kent