frankmarsi

Pete B, three years later and it finally sank in. Perhaps you are correct about the possibility that maybe the amps I used did not like the load it saw. Funny as I was on another forum and the OP was complaining about a similar situation. On the basis that all amps do not sound the same there may be something to the ability of certain components matching or just plain won't sound good with different speakers. Although the two 400's sounded good, I felt the bigger amp was better on its own. I finally did shortly after when this post was new purchase a restored Phase Linear Series II PL-700 in immaculate condition, hooked it up to the AR-9's and in all honesty sounded better. The PL400's are excellent sounding amps, especially with AR's but for some reason the singular PL-700 alone with AR-9's seemed a better match. In the future, I will attempt 'bi-amping' again because on paper seems to be the better way to go. And although sound-quality is my main goal, it's more fun watching four large VU meters operating with two amps in tandem. FM 148

Yes, I would concur with you "newandold'. Perhaps that confusing list was incorrectly copy&pasted, in either case not much sense of which speaker is being referred to. I also know the AR-LST can handle/absorb much more wattage than the smaller AR-3a. 1.3

That's good to hear. I have retained every piece of audio equipment I bought since 1967. Including the Dynaco PAS-3X, kit I built, a ST-35 tube amp, ST-120 kit I built and all of the Phase Linear amps and pre-amps I bought when I retired in the early 2000's. I even have the new then Shure cartridges from the start in 1967. Though I started fooling around with old radios found in the neighborhoods trash cans or the ones my father messed around with. A Shure M3D, M55, M91ED, Empire SE/X , a Shure Type III, Shure Type IV. Let's not forget every AR speaker also. Of course every vinyl disk I bought since including the first disk I had to have because the tune was so catchy back in 1961-62 of the Ventures, 'Walk Don't Run', a few 45RPM in much played condition like Louie, Louie by the Kingsmen, Green Onions by Booker T and the MG's, Heart and Soul by The Cleftones, etc. At the age I was at of 11-12, my weekly allowance was all of 10 cents, I to save up for weeks to afford a "AMT" model car to build. It did take time to save up unless I was thrown .25 cents to a .50 by a visiting relative or my parents had a little to throw my way every once in a while like a couple of dollars but, that was very rare. Coming from a family that began in 1930 living in Bed-Sty, Brooklyn there was never any extra money. Money only went for necessities primarily and living expenses, gas, electric, food and car fare though we all walked where ever we had to be. Mother made my pants and suits and my 3 older sisters skirts, blouses and dresses. We did not accept GOV. hand-outs.By the early 1960s things were changing for the better carrying over from the fifties in this country. Life was very tough for depression time immigrants and everyone before that, some did well, some barely recovered afterward. Mother worked in a sweat-shop on a sewing machine in a factory making blouses, coats and other clothing, my father worked on 125th. Street and Lenox Ave. in New York City as a 'timber-man' shoring-up the building's sidewalks and basements on either side of the street as the steam-shovel dug the subway tunnels right down the middle of the street. The sidewalks and curbs and actual buildings on either side of the street/hole had to be supported with 12"X12" timbers so the buildings would not collapse into the huge hole they were digging as NYC continually expanded it's subways. Luckily for me I was born in 1949 four years after WW II had ended and the country was on a roll during the 1950's so, my life was made better for me by my parents and oldest sibling and a flourishing economy. We all loved AMERICA dearly. Life back then for mostly everyone was difficult and certainly very different than it is today and it was before my time. We didn't have a car until the oldest sister finished college and started working at a private school in Brooklyn. First car in 1959 that she bought a used 1955 Chevy Belair 4 door in the popular turquoise and white paint scheme. My family finally left Brooklyn by 1960. Brooklyn has been for some time the fourth largest city in the country with just over 4 million in population. Ah Brooklyn, with-out it, NYC would never be NYC. The story goes that the Dutch named it originally as the area of 'broken-land' henceforth Brooklyn as time went by. The Dutch were forced out of Manhattan and they went to Staten Island as my family did. However, each of us worked in Manhattan as that's where the jobs were and from S.I. it meant at least a four hour commute (both ways), everyday back to S.I. I have a couple of early photos of my father using a two-man handled saw because chain saws were probably rare and or a new, yet to be manufactured tool. He had two huge two-man saws however, someone stole them out of the garage. Call me a hoarder in todays terms but, back when my family began, one repaired or repurposed objects when broken or kept them for parts and I was taught those same things. Metals were always held onto especially. All of the family's food was made from scratch, left-overs saved for tomorrow's side dish. And "newandold" coming from small discarded kitchen tube radios, junked TVs with one 12 inch speaker as most had back then was the 'norm' for me as my starting point. When I decided to go solid-state in 1972, of course S.S. really wasn't wide-spread like today. Transistors were still not so widely used or even known of by most of the general public. Even the phenomenal Bob Carver was forced to use Delco transistors that GM was using in their truck ignitions as many transistors were yet to be developed that could handle high voltage as those did. Luckily, my rebuilt PL-700s use more modern "On-Semi"/"Motorola" power-transistors with a larger "SOA' and the two amps were rebuilt by one of the last PL gurus in Washington state. The way I talk, one would think it not out the realm of possibilities for me to buy a larger burial plot so I could take my LST's with me. I don't know what others feel about their speakers but, what I own was a long time in coming to me and the attraction has never left me. Though I have to admit, this whole present issue of the virus, political unrest and the discourse of many things through-out the world has really set me back where I rarely do any listening these days- I sure hope that passes soon. Music has always been a saving grace for me with rock to speak my mind and classical to express my deepest emotions. BELOW: My father is on the right wearing the plaid shirt, over-alls and cap cutting a heavy timber around 1927 to 1930, just before the depression hit hard. He was 18 to 21 year old and fresh off the boat a couple of years before that. Notice construction clothing was very different back then. He told me stories of when fellow workers would become injured and then they were finished as workmen's comp and insurance for the working class was non-existent. FM 1k

I'm interested, we'd have to discuss the logistics and particulars. In any event, this sounds like lots of fun.

9/23/2021 “Will the 450W be a risk to the original tweeters?” Any amplifier will be dangerous to any tweeter if driven too hard with ensuing clipping and distortion. Too much power fed into a delicate tweeter can easily take out a voice coil. In fact a woofer would blow also if over powered. The key to using a high power amplifier is judgement of when one is pushing a speaker and not go beyond its ability to clearly make sound. I’ve done it years ago and the fear of doing will always be there if I get carried away. The use of high power has many virtues and should at the same time be respected and understood when to draw the line on volume. One precaution is to use the correct size fuse, in fact fuses should always be used in any situation. Though you could damage a tweeter even with a fuse in place it would all still depend on ‘user’ diligence and knowledge of when they are pushing too hard and too much. Common sense is key. However, what I found out years ago in 1971 was that even using the recommended correct size fuse of 1&1/4 amp fuse on the AR-3a, volume level can’t be that loud as they weren’t designed for auditorium use. I went through tens of boxes of "FuseTronS" in their little yellow boxes. It’s why by mid ’74 I purchased a pair of “Micro-Static” tweeters and decided against the use of AR’s tweeter which simply cannot handle high-power. On the other hand, AR’s midrange and 12” woofer can handle huge amounts of power. I first tried the double AR-3A'S by 2005 or so and sound wise it was a no-go for me. "Any thoughts on double stacking the 3a's and how would you wire them? " Several years ago I hooked up two sets of AR-3a’s with two Phase LInear PL-400’s. Typically, these amps will offer up 400 watts per-channel @ 4ohms and a singular pair of AR-3a’s will sound amazing. I used this combo since I purchased my first set of Micro-Statics in mid or so 1974 till 1983 when I realized I rather use high-power than settle for low volume highs missing and the for the excitement of realistic sounding audio across the audio band that high power gives to me. Years ago in 1972 when the AR-LST was first released, I remember wondering how would a singular 12” woofer would keep up with all those extra drivers as compared to the AR-3a. Gratefully, I quickly learned that the AR 12" woofer is very hearty and could handle it with no problem. I hooked up the double set of 3a’s and I felt a thickness to the sound, bass heavy and over-all not as well balanced as I would expect them to sound and decided for me, it wasn’t accurate enough. If you do try this, I highly recommend two identical equally matched amplifiers. "I would love to have a pair of LST's but realize that finding a pair is going to be really difficult, so wondering if double stacking 3a's would be close." The AR-LST was designed with the knowledge of the AR-3a so, AR had much to accomplish even though it was a nearly perfect model to emulate. As a result AR had in effect ‘upped’ their stance on what a speaker should sound like and they gloriously announced a new-standard for the world with the AR-LST. In my experimentation as I mentioned above, there was no comparison as the LST clearly is on another level, period. "Where and how would you place the fuses?" Using the correct fuses, fuses are mounted ‘in-line’ on one leg of the speaker cables. Fast-Blow fuses are not recommend but, instead Slo-Blow are required. Generally, AR suggested mounting the fuse clips in the back of cabinet using short wood screws. "I listen to classical, vocal, etc in a large room (16x30x10)." Regardless of the type of music listened to, speaker placement is paramount. You have a large room and it would require much amplifier power to fill. Your room’s dimensions are actually very good if not almost ideal. Generally, most sealed and acoustic-suspension speakers would sound their best close to or against the ‘front’ wall, especially the AR-LST. Other different designs would require different placement if not the same or, could be moved more forward into the room, experimentation is necessary and certainly helpful in learning what’s best. This crap that amateurs spew out all across the net that trusting ones ears is a common pitfall. First off, the folks who use that phrase are generally amateurs and wouldn't have qualifying ears. Learning the established rules first and by experimentation with established norms as you go along. Listening impressions should always be weighed along side established rules of thumb in as a starting point and also to confirm whether or not things are going correctly. I too have a long room of 26 feet, though one wall opens up to the dining room at about 20 feet, while the actual room itself is 26’ X 12.5’ X 8’. When I first moved into my present home, I was already fully aware that the AR-LST was designed to be used against the front-wall and decided to try it at various distances in mid-room during initial set-up. The sound of LST speakers mid-room was dreadful with empty hollow bass that was not being supported by the front-wall and a somewhat scattered output for the rest of the audio-band. I would say to you that reading and learning some of the basic principles should be part and parcel for any listener/hobbist and is always in order in any area of endeavor so, I highly recommend you hit the books and the afforded new benefit of videos online. Bear in mind that there are concrete basic rules of placement that should be adhered to and used as initial guidelines but, like I say, experimentation is and can be useful and educational. You won't be reinventing the wheel but, actually making things easier for yourself with less frustration if the basics are followed as starting point. I’ve had a few battling discussions with some new comers who insisted their speakers were “sounding great” on floors, in corners and or driven by too-low amplifier power. Weeks later the ‘unknowing-ones’ started broadcasting on other sites their eureka moments/new deep-experience of correct placement coupled to high power as ‘if’ they knew it all along, a typical plagiaristic move many people on the web live by. In short order the ‘perps’ now have their speakers on stands and have bought into appropriately higher amplifier power and now strut around on other sites just like peacocks advising others of their deep and qualifying knowledge of high power usage. It’s a big laugh to me. In reality, I liken it to that one cannot expect anyone freshly out of ‘boot-camp’ to be a leading commander in a real battle, or, a newcomer to set-up a proper sounding stereo system. It takes time in learning through attentive trial and error and using already established proven information as the proper foundation of setting-up. One's ears must be trained in order to discern and learn differences and that can only come with time and experience. However, being prepared with the correct tools is key, like having an open-end to new and different aspects about setting up, open to admit if the set up really does sound like the real thing or a dull attempt at reproduction that many are content with? UPDATE: It just came to mind that from 1977 to 1982, I also had my 3a's in a similarly size room like yours. It was 35' X 25' with 12' ceilings. The extended length of speaker wire was over 50 feet per-side because I ran the wires across the ceiling to maintain a clear floor. My AR-3a's sounded excellent and much bigger than their actual size because the room's large dimensions assisted in that. The AR tweeter was not operating as usual so, the Micro-Static tweeters did the job admirably, besides those small AR domes would not carry a room of that size well. If your listening habits are 'loud' or even close to loud, I'd strongly suggest external tweeters and disconnect the cabinet's tweeter. I used my first PL-400 and felt anything of less power would definitely sound strained as the amp ran at '0' db often when the mood insisted. FM https://community.classicspeakerpages.net/topic/10649-do-ar-speakers-really-sound-that-good-more-new-video/ 870

No complaints here I would address but, Ar-Pro, you find necessary to defend the Mac, you must own them. The power wording is still semantics. The transformer insures the same advertised numbers at the varied ohm taps, there's no doubling of wattage at 4 ohms and it's the same rating at 8 ohms. Bench testing is the only valid number, there's no mystery or supposed magic numbers. I did out of curiosity and just for giggles priced out new possible Mac models. I’m driving four LST so, I require sufficient power enough and as I’m since 1974 accustomed to what high power amps afford me using the amps I do. I could buy used but, new is always a treat with anything so, I’ve listed approximate new prices below.. Likely candidates would be the MC 611 mono-blocks x 4 at around $7, grand each so that’s $28, grand. Or, the MC 462 x 2 as they are stereo models and that would be $18, grand for both. Space wise, these make more sense. Those are big numbers, and don’t seem to be a sensible or realistic hi-fi purchase for me especially since I’m completely happy with what I use presently. Ultimately this thread should probably end, we’ll be beating a dead horse. Unless you heard mine and I heard yours or if we had an idea of what you use there's no point in continuing. I'm not just starting out obviously so, if ‘OP’ “jnolan5784” is actively seeking answers, he’ll have to indicate a price range and do much research and learning before taking the plunge. I wish him good luck in his search. FM

AR_PRO said: ""Disclaimer: no one is implying anything negative about your Phase Linear amplifiers - they might be wonderful! But there are any number of excellent amplifiers to choose from; you must surely recognize that there's more than a single path forward, right?"" "Let Me Be Frank, After-All, That Is My Name" FM says: tell me, did I disgrace Mac? I only spoke of my amps and also commented about the 'nose up in the air' that's seemingly a general attitude of Mac owners. Silly but, that's the premise I sense, 'One-up-manship' exists in all areas. I praised the Mac construction and design. Fun to look at though I still question the necessity of being so over-built for home use. Granted, there's no doubting their quality though they're not the only show in town. There are any number of other amplifiers that are available built with even more quality and loftier prices. For my needs if I were to buy two Mac amps of comparable wattage is questionable for me although doing so would not make much sense because in that case I'd be listening to costlier speakers also, so, where does it end? So, if I dropped about 10 to 15 or more grand on comparable sized amps, I'd probably drop another 15 to 20 big ones or more on speakers. Would I be here explaining to anyone why I did? AR_PRO , please post a photo of your system, I'd like to see your system and what you actually use as a basis of reference. Do you own Mac amps? See below, I did a whole lot of praising Mac except where I mention some people's attitudes. Also AR_PRO , you are right and I stand corrected, Mac was purchased by another concern a few years ago. HERE'S WHAT I SAID: ""Far be from me to criticize MAC components I appreciate their quality, they've always been a stalwart in the industry with over designed tougher componentry, intelligent circuit topography etc. etc. With a virtual military use design philosophy and all of that is admirable and good. But, in practical consumer terms, if I wanted to purchase the same amount of watts I shamelessly now use but in a Mac amp, I wouldn't be able to afford my car payments. And if I we're speaking 'period', I'm perfectly placed myself, gosh, I'm dug in deeply already. Repair wise using the car analogy, if I owned a Caddy, Benz, Beamer, Tesla, etc., I may drive around more confidently but, when I had service done even for simple tune-ups, the following year, I might be looking elsewhere. And if I may be sharp edged for a moment? Mac can be looked upon as having that high-brow Euro-car posture except in actuality, they're built in the USA and owned by a Japanese concern, not that there's anything wrong with that, I'm just saying. It's just that in my opinion, the feelings I get about Mac components is the same feeling I get when I see a 'Hummer' passing on the street. ""

9/19/2021 Last time I upped my system’s power amplifiers in 2009, I was already using two Phase Linear PL-400’s to power four LST speakers. Then I moved on to two Phase Linear PL-700 amplifiers. I only gained about 3db in actual volume level. Do I always use the higher volume levels? No, but listening at a realistic volume level of say a classical piece where the VU meters are hovering around 75 to 135 watts @4 ohms and a large transient suddenly bursts out of the speakers I watch my meters indicate about 200 to 350+ watts @ 4 ohms each channel. And just to spread more excitement or distain and animosity that my posts seem to stir, these refurbed amps will lift up to 700 WPC RMS. LST’s have no qualms with peaks of 1000 WPC, or so Julian Hirsch reported in testing the LST in 1972. Fifty years or so lately, I still exercise caution as I always have when using high power. Now, given the fact that the AR-LST speaker is never phased (no pun) and doesn’t bat an eye-lash at such increases except for reproducing it and letting my ears enjoy. This is where power ratings are necessary and should be considered when planning how much ‘realism’ you want your music to have. With low-wattage, the ability of not distorting or adding any unknown/undesirable anomaly to the sound is paramount if you want to say it’s a high-performance system and is realistic sounding. That would be difficult to do well as the low powered amp would be working very hard and still not offer the 'huge-ness' rendered by big power. In my long history of using inefficient AR speakers going far back into personal history, the amps I used have ratings @8ohms wpc. I went from 17.5 then to 60, then, 200 and now 360 watts per-channel at 8 ohms. Respectively at 4 ohms, the 17.6 watt-er probably at peak hit 22 watts. The 60 watt-er did 67, it’s been reported. And the 200 WPC watt PL doubled to 400 WPC and the 360 WPC PL-700 will do 700 WPC. Each increase certainly raised the volume by what was a discernible measure. Each increase of wattage did enable my music to come out of the veil of lower power and forgive these unscientific terms, it was; 'bigger', ’clearer’ ‘faster’, a ‘deeper’ sense of and ‘wider soundstage’, all the while coming across more relaxed with-out any hint of strain and at the same time showing more latitude, strength and the most important quality ‘control’. When an amp has enough power to control the power it unleashes the music sounds more natural, when a lower power amp has to be pushed to the same volume, it loses control in the form of clipping and distortion and ultimately failure if conditions continued. Control of the actual notes allowing music to flow and present itself in a more ‘natural’ and flowing way. These are some of the benefits of using a ‘HIGH’ power amp. The standard of the industry for many years was to solely quote 8 ohm ratings, as far as I recall, the additional 4 ohm ratings became more prevalent during the advent of the super power amps. FM P.S. Was it in 1972 or so that the FTC enforced testing at 1/3 power? Below, some quick easy helpful reading: https://www.google.com/search?q=FTC+inforced+testing+at+1%2F3+power&source=hp&ei=GW1HYZSkGM6r5NoP0Kq8-Ac&iflsig=ALs-wAMAAAAAYUd7KZv0dtxfMPilKrxg9ulofCSBBGBF&oq=FTC+inforced+testing+at+1%2F3+power&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAwyBQghEKsCUIYDWIYDYJkRaABwAHgAgAF1iAF1kgEDMC4xmAEAoAECoAEB&sclient=gws-wiz&ved=0ahUKEwjUlOODwovzAhXOFVkFHVAVD38Q4dUDCAw Reading: https://www.google.com/search?q=decilbel+watts&source=hp&ei=WltHYaT6D8Kp1QGUipT4Cg&iflsig=ALs-wAMAAAAAYUdpapUX0tytEU-apBeD2pv7hyFiwNGQ&oq=decilbel+watts&gs_lcp=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&sclient=gws-wiz&ved=0ahUKEwikj7iNsYvzAhXCVDUKHRQFBa8Q4dUDCAg&uact=5\\ Disclaimer: When using high-power amplifiers it is strongly recommended to use appropriate fuses with the speakers for maximum protection to avoid damage to the speakers. 530

2 hours ago, ar_pro said: ""This is exactly right; under-rating the power of their amplifiers is practically a McIntosh hallmark."" FM says: So what, the rest of the world uses the term 'Conservatively Rated', do we have to talk with different terminology when speaking of each and every amplifier? That's just plain old McIntosh elitism or semantics? Why not simply state + or - with-in a range? ""Also, most McIntosh amplifiers utilize an autoformer to deliver rated power regardless of loudspeaker impedance."" FM says: Correct, you get what they advertise, no doubling of their power ratings. But, that's merely flaunting and using a design principle almost as a bragging right that has no practical validity. ""Regarding the Fisher equipment mentioned, I'd suggest that the goal of these set-ups is to have a "period correct" system, and not necessarily optimum performance."" Far be from me to criticize MAC components I appreciate their quality as they've always been a stalwart in the industry with over designed tougher componentry, intelligent circuit topography, built with a virtual military use design philosophy and all of that is admirable and good. But, in practical consumer terms, if I wanted to purchase the same amount of watts I shamelessly now use but in a Mac amp, I wouldn't be able to afford my car payments. And if I we speaking 'period', I've perfectly placed myself already. Gosh, I'm dug-in deeply into vintage. Repair wise, using the car analogy, if I owned a Caddy, Benz, Beamer, Tesla, etc., I may drive around more confidently but, when I had service done even for simple tune-ups, the following year, I might be looking elsewhere. And if I may be sharp edged for a moment? Mac can be looked upon as having that high-brow Euro-car posture except in actuality, they're built in the USA and owned by a Japanese concern, not that there's anything wrong with that, I'm just saying. It's just that in my opinion, the feelings I get about Mac components is the same feeling I get when I see a 'Hummer' passing on the street.

“Power to the People, Power to My Speakers” or: AR speakers are best Listened and Enjoyed with High-Power Amplification. About 50 years ago when I was a young man doing everything I could do to reach the level of better and higher fidelity in my listening, I purchased in kit form, what at the time was considered almost high power. At the time I was barely enjoying my brand new AR-3a’s because although musical instruments and voice never sounded more realistic in sound-quality because of their quality, something was sorely missing. One interesting aspect that I noticed was I had to almost make a concentrated effort to hear cymbals and though they were seemingly there occasionally, they still weren’t vivid or crashing tingly sounding as I knew they sounded in person in the bands I had played in from 1964 onto ’73 or at concerts I had gone to. Nor did cymbals or higher register frequencies from different musical instrument’s leading and trailing edges in those ranges as I typically heard in a live performance. So, I obviously knew that in order to get more sound in the treble range I needed to turn up that tone-control but, that raised the noise-level and wasn’t very natural sounding and off balance to the overall sound. I lived that reality for a number of months all the while I was continuously reading more and more information on the benefits of good sounding balance music systems. Every chance I got, I also continued taking trips to the too few stereo stores in the boro in which I lived and on many a good day traveled by boat and subway to visit the numerous stereo stores in the boro of Manhattan, NYC which I actually started doing in 1965. This afforded me the run-in’s with eager and sometimes pushy salesmen who were more than willing to use the switching-boards that had the fun ability to switch between different amplifiers and speakers, turntables, etc. My approach was to specifically hone in on my favorite components and speakers and to immediately request what I wanted to hear. ‘What it was like in the early '70s’: In those early years there was a new ‘phenom’ creating a stir in the then glorious world of high-fidelity. It was something that was creating somewhat of a stir for some folks while still creating a degree of confusion for others and I’ll tell you why. As far back in 1971 and before, the general public was still relying upon anywhere generally speaking from 15 to 35 watts per-channel to power their stereos. That amount of watts was pretty much the going number for most folks. If someone had 75WPC which was not common, that person was big-timing-it. The knowledge of the benefits of higher-fidelity due to higher watts was relatively unknown to the masses. Besides, even though AR Corp. a number of years earlier had reached the amazing status of holding almost one-third of market-share in consumer speakers sales, the awareness or even the known necessity of high-power amplifiers was something most had no concern of even though in that and earlier period AR’s were grossly listened to with under-powered amplifiers. Much like some do today, many raise their chins in a posturing defiance insisting that their stereos sound "great" as is and certainly there is no need to play their music any louder than they do at home already. Or, not unless it was New Year's Eve and the neighbors and family were over tearing up the rug and spilling drinks on the living room floor, who needed more watts? I’ll never forget the moment I finished building my new and not common to most, transistor amplifler (back then it was: "gee, no tubes for once"). I was now rolling in the upper echelon of ‘real’ high-fidelity because everything I read before that moment indicated that to reproduce the lower registers of bass, it required more watts and to render cymbals cleanly and clearly along with other high frequencies would all sound better if an amplifier wasn’t struggling to make the power necessary to reproduce those frequencies. An under-powered amplifier would tend to clip or distort, and sound thin therefore, modifying the original reproduced sound and not sounding realistic. With a small amp, and this apparent ’small-ness’ of sound, I wasn’t a happy listener. Mind you, I’m not implying loud. I’m talking bigger, fuller, more emotionally involving, where music has the ability to touch the heart and inspire but, with the small amp all that wasn’t there and fully realized. ‘With the hope of the future, better things will come’. By approximately the close of the ‘60s the Crown Corp. who, known for excellent professional-studio 10-1/2” tape recorders came out with an improvement on the 1960s entry of the D-60 amplifier except, for their new entry the D-300 produced a huge (at the time), 150 watts per-channel RMS @ 8ohms. This new revelation was great except for the sometimes evident audible grainy-ness and at times stringent high-frequencies that seemed to be by-products of the ‘new’ solid-state devices being used known as the transistor. Consequently, that Crown amp was one of the only of it’s type and for a short time notable in the spread of a new dimension of stereo at the time. That was the ability to make the stereo-typical (pun intended) stereo to come-alive and reproduce and present music in a more realistic fashion. With-in a years time, a young enterprising physicist from this county’s west coast devised a similar newer design with even more power of 350wpc @8 ohms. With a fair amount of advertising Bob Carver had unleashed upon the world a evolutionary giant step in the furthering of stereo sound to offer even more realism and coming closer to the original musical experience. ‘One Thing for Certain’ With-in less than 24 months Mr. Carver introduced a 350 WPC ampliflier and later a 200WPC amp and a very innovative and excellent sounding pre-amplifier. Shortly thereafter other major companies from the USA and abroad came out with their versions of high-powered amplifiers and more flexible pre-amps, better turntables, improved phono-cartridges and cables. It was considered part of the “Golden-Era” of high-fidelity. The “Power-Wars” ensued and the race was on. More and more consumers were buying into high-power. Many other speaker manufacturers were coming out with acoustic-suspension speakers because now, the higher power necessary to realistically reproduce sound was available . And, these same manufacturers also up-ing their game by manufacturing higher power amplifiers also. “Forgive Them for They Know Not What They Do” There are some individuals on this forum and other forums that will and do either dismiss and dispute most of what I’ve said here. Though to me, I've been a major proponent (AKA fanboy) of AR speakers judiciously powered with high-power amplification since 1974,(what were you listening to?). I firmly believe that anyone who disagrees with my rants is primarily due to the fact that they themselves don't use anything over 200WPC. Back In 1971, I hooked-up my brand new AR-3a speakers with a low watt Dynaco ST-35 amplifier @ 17.5 WPC hoping for the best and I was very disappointed until a few months painfully went by and I bought into another amp. Hey, great sound was all pretty new to me, I was in the process of learning, even if I knew enough already to buy AR-3a’s. So, in less than a few months, I excitedly purchased and built a Dynaco ST-120 kit that promised 60WPC RMS with a pedal to the metal and balls to the wall 67WPC RMS at clipping. In a very short time I realized my satisfaction level was only ever so slightly elevated. This newer purchase only gave me slightly bigger bass and only slightly more realistic sounding higher frequencies in terms of ‘size’ or volume. However, that lousy amp was a mistake of a purchase. I ended up tearing it down and rebuilding major parts of it several times. By mid-late 1974 I bought my first Phase Linear PL-400 and was extremely happy ever since. In 2009 there came two PL-700's and there I rest to this day. ‘Afraid of the Watts?’ ‘Why?’ The ‘pushers’ of anything lower than 150+WPC @8 ohms with an AR-3a speaker are with-in the group of non-cognoscenti who more than likely have never spent adequate time intently listening to a system that approaches the realistic musical levels and excitement that the use of high-power with inefficient speakers affords. You’ll have nothing to fear but, the ‘new’ level of enlightened enjoyment. Below a popular advertising piece right around the same times that I’ve spoken of. By 1972 through the end of and beyond into the early 1980’s many folks were to become believers and are certain of the ways of achieving a higher degree of reproduced musical quality because of higher amp power. P.S. To JKent, I recall quite a few years ago a few folks using the term “Big Watts” or last week someone said “Mac-watts” when referring to their amps but, in all seriousness, there is no valid measurement either electrically or otherwise that can be measured and called ‘Big-Watts’. And if this misleading expression is valid, please explain to me and others what is meant by big-watts? Is the bass bigger, fuller, the treble higher, brighter, is it a particulat flavor or color? Do other amps get the participation award just for being there also? Beyond amps sounding different by design, I find that ‘big-watts’ term bogus and should be left to the unknowning. It is nothing more than being misinformed with misleading statements. Because, otherwise that connotation would define ‘colored’ or an editorialized sound quality and is not desirable to me. https://community.classicspeakerpages.net/topic/10649-do-ar-speakers-really-sound-that-good-more-new-video/ Below: Back when I first became aware of this ad in 1972 in all of the big 3 audio magazines, I easily realized the speakers in the ad were the same that I owned, AR-3a. I recall at the time, friends also commenting on the obvious intentional use of AR-3a's however the most important feeling was one of assuredness that I owned the same speakers and amplifier. 369

He may not have anything worth while to say for himself.

From this country’s wonderful city of Cincinnati, Ohio which by the way is named after the great ancient Roman general Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus, a hero of the Roman Republic who was heralded for his bravery and loyalty to ancient Rome. He was a B.C.E. Roman hero who saved the city from crisis and then retired to his farm rather than rule. Offered to us all at a current price of over three-thousand dollars is a beautiful pair of AR-9 speakers. Said to have been ‘re-capped’ and ready to go. Makes me wonder what the highest selling price will be. If I ever have to sell mine, I’ll be happy to have this price and more. See link below with only 4 hours left. https://www.ebay.com/itm/334128731642?mkevt=1&mkpid=2&emsid=e112358.m43.l3160&mkcid=8&bu=43113236379&osub=-1%7E1&segname=16TE1798421_T_ENDSOON_CT1&crd=20210901090000&ch=osgood&sojTags=osub%3Dosub%2Csegname%3Dsegname%2Ccrd%3Dcrd%2Cch%3Dch%2Cchnl%3Dmkcid

An obvious tragedy waiting to happen. I have two of these stands and the idea was quickly dashed as it is an impossibility by all practical means to safely use under my speakers, especially odd shaped ones like the LST's. Even if a wider wood base was fashioned to better mount the cabinet balance wise, it will never be safe or secure. The degree of being so off-balance is simply asking for disaster, I would not be willing to take such a chance, not to mention the possible crushing of a foot or angle. Back in early 2013 when I was moving my stuff into my new digs, I experimented with placement and the new welded steel stands I had bought months prior fit into my planning perfectly. These seem to have been made by a private smaller welding shop in a limited number. Made of steel, they're rated to support 150lbs. each so their capacity of supporting 300lbs. doubled on each side was an extra safe bet. Knowing the AR-LST are 90lbs. each, I decided to use two at a time. They're 16 inches tall and with double LST's on top, they balance perfectly. Note the AR-LST are sitting almost in the middle of the room and the quality of sound was abysmal. And even though I already knew the LST's were designed to be placed against the front wall, I did it to remind that point to myself and also to plug a few pieces in as I was very excited to have a room I knew would work well as soon I was able to put it altogether. In those early stages of system set-up/experimentation, I already had the idea set in my mind focused where items would go but moving all of it by myself took some time. By the following nite, I had moved things basically where they are today.

Hi David, obviously, to each his own. What an individual uses is relative to said discussions. After reading/studying and going to hear so many components through-out 7/8's of my life, I sometimes question owning old speakers also but, my good old speakers have never failed me audibly or otherwise. Oh sure, a blown woofer or tweeter here and there is par for the course. One could get a flat on a new car also. The same with a vintage collectable car or even a house as they all come with their own set of parameters and special needs. Anything that's new will become old as a matter of course. Old amps surely can have their particulars but, speakers are no different, henceforth the constant rehashing of repair discussion on this site. It all depends on how much or to what degree one is a vintage aficionado. Like I said I've been using the same equipment for years and have been more than happy. The few areas that I've modernize-in sort of speak is interconnects and phono-cartridges along with newer ways of vinyl-disk cleaning. That in of itself have led me to changes and propelled my system to new never experienced before lofty heights. I'm unable to orally convey to anyone here what a $4,000. sounds like. No matter though as I've been disputed here often enough. Like a quality new car, one doesn't appreciate it until you own a new one. But again, I endorse vintage as I feel 40-50 years ago, certain advances were made that we still live with today in to some degrees modified form. But wait, what do I see? This is a vintage AR speaker site, no need to ask to be understood like I usually do or, do I? I could go out tomorrow and drop a ton of cash on other speakers, amps, etc. but, I prefer to use what I lusted for and grew up with in the world of hi-fi in my own personal hi-fi history. I'm very sentimental obviously especially given the stuff I use, AR's since 1971, Phase Linear since 1974, vinyl since a kid and allowed to use the family's record player. Though I'm certain if anyone here heard what I've assembled, they'd agree I'm on the right path as I have been for all of these five+ decades as I know the present setup truly sounds impressive. In closing, I can say that I'm happy with all of the choices that I made. It seems as though with the choices that you've made, you are also. See this post:

Test report on this one are mixed, the XPA-1L mono-blocks though are still interesting for a lower-cost Class-A operation price option than others. The heat class-A gives off could be a deal-breaker for those with small-ish rooms. I've never heard one myself but always had an interest. In fact many say B Carver was actually prompted by the need AR's had for more wattage. I had already assembled my first system in and around the the same time in 1967 and being a young avid Hi-Fi person subscribing to the popular 3 hifi magazines back then, I could easily understand that rumor (see old advert. below). For me though, I'd rather have a good old vintage amp that was great 50 years ago from the same era when my speakers were made. Other's tastes and opinions will vary of course. Always been curious about class A, I found this about the amp mentioned. https://www.pooraudiophile.com/2015/01/emotiva-xpa-1l-class-aclass-ab-monoblock-amplifier-review.html Below: An ad from the early-mid 1970's. Ads such as these made me feel good about buying into the world of high-power from early on in 1974. And yes back then, I was convinced that those were AR-3a's in the ad wrapped in chains and that I was a proud owner of both items at that same time. The fact is many folks still haven't experienced what high power can offer to the critical listener especially with a good front-end. Back then in '74, I was enjoying the thrilling sound, and huge soundscape due to using AR-3a's and Phase Linear PL-400. Below: Ad from 1974 endorsing the use of high wattage.

Now, you've got me thinking about a near future date.

Some of the benefits of high power is a sense of depth in all it conveys at levels that can and will approximate ‘live’ music. I would know because I started out with 17.5 watts per-side back in 1967 driving speakers I assembled together from raw components like many did back then and certainly others before my time. A few years ago on this forum I reported my new purchase of two AR-9s in minty condition. I had first hooked them up to a single Phase Linear PL-400 which offered 400 watts per-side at 4 ohms. Though the speakers sounded good, I was use to more depth, detail and more balls-to-the-wall realism that is the domain of high-power amps performance. I realized I was accustom to the newer big amps in my collection, the Phase Linear 700 Series II and it's two of these that power my number one system using four LST's. Getting back to the AR9’s demand for power, I first used a singular 400 watt per-side amp PL-400. Later on, I decided to run two Phase Linear PL400’s in a bi-amped configuration. Truthfully, although each amp had to work less hard I still knew I could get more out the speakers and still enjoy a ‘bigger’ sound by hooking up a Phase Linear 700 Series II amplifier exactly like the two PL-700’s I use in my main system firing-up four AR-LST’s. Much to my delight, I recieved what I was searching for because at a RMS rating of 700 per-channel the bigger amplifier came through with flying-colors. To this day and even though I hardly use the second AR system I so lovingly put together, I prefer the sound of a monster-amp driving sound my AR-9’s. All my amps use fans because it’s the over-all safest way to use 4 ohm speakers the way I do at realistic levels. And fellas, as much as I am a happy owner of AR-9's and just had to have a pair, I will always be partial to the LST speaker as I'm a long time AR speaker owner going back to 1971 of official ownership, though I started loving them as far back as 1965 when I heard my dentist's pair. Owning AR's for so many years/decades makes me feel as though I'm a true-blue, AR-o-phile. So, I understand what others are missing though, I'm glad DavidR and AR-surround are still championing the cause. FM P.S. I'll say it again, AR-surround, we owe each other a visit. I still need some time to organize this house but, at some point it'll happen. When you own as many vinyl records as I do, (over 7000+), things can become overwhelming. And to think from 1961 to 2004, I only had 300 in number then, from 2005 to the present I went hog-wild after buying $1000+ cartridges and after purchasing much more expensive cartridges in the mid 2 to 4 grand area, it seemed to be the next logical step to buy even higher amplifier power. Everything opened-up and suddenly sounded so much 'real' even more than with 400 watts per-channel.

The number ‘2’ setting is noted by “AR” as being ‘flat’ or neutral, the lower settings like ‘1’ present reduced ‘highs’ and ‘lows’. The higher numbered settings present a very slight elevation of both highs and lows. All settings only affect highs and lows and do not affect the mids. I set mine at # 2 as i find i rely on tone controls and my up-stream/input devices. Current higher quality cartridges are more alive sounding, and because of this are more, realistic sounding. If we go back in time and see the differences of the mainstream choices, it was either the muted east coast sound or the brighter west coast sound, the west won. The amplifiers and pre-amp I use are more alive than most others and is a hallmark of their sound, ask anyone who correctly uses them. In any event, the ‘LST’ settings will be room dependent and the components inline in front of them. Anyway, positions 3, 4, and 5 only add a subtle amount of bass and highs. Similar arrangement in the AR-10. I chose to place my LST’s located against the front wall as is commonly accepted as the best. I've tried away from the wall and the bass suffered as did directionality. Using a ‘SAE-1800’ parametric-equalizer and the pre-amp’s tone controls I can bring-up the highs substantially enough to have a natural and pleasing response. As a plus, my pre-amp’s tone controls solely adjust the top-end or upper-edges of the frequencies they control. Although both the 3a and LST are voiced to portray a similar sound, the LST have more of all of the best qualities of the 3a. LST’s afford a wider and bigger spread of the sound-field and convey an almost omni-directional sound if they and the room is set-up correctly. They allow for a big-sound and with the correct wattage can pressurize a room very easily. I’ve been listening intensively/critically to AR speakers for 50 years, (I find that amazing myself) and intend to do so per cento-anni.

Grazie molto e' tante piacere. At this point I only have three pairs of AR-LST,One pair of AR-9, three pairs of AR-3a, and two pairs of AR-2ax. And this collection goes back to originally purchased AR-3a's in 1971. Last purchase was made in 2014 to get those AR-9's which I had wanted since they debuted in '78-'79. I find myself spending most time with the double AR-LST's.

Thank you AR55 for setting the record straight. Some of the information that was put forth here about using skinny wires is so far from the best ever given on this site. But, take it from whence it comes and look at their set-ups. Speaker wire, and inter- connecting cables are very important and can have a major effect in ones audio system. I've been through that whole topic since I upgraded cables and speaker wire back in 1978 and desired more than the rift-raft wires and cabling out there. Prior to upgrading I did like most did, you just used what interconnects that came with the components and or bought 16 gauge (definitely not 18AWG) from anywhere USA store. Everyone did 40-50 years ago until alert affectionados wanted more and learned there was better. It was not only trendy but, a requirement for better sound to have better interconnects and speaker wire because it was proven differences did exist. Anyone who's in that old camp is not a searching for and certainly not experiencing higher fidelity. Though many here will be sticklers for wood matching finishes or potentiometer quality it appears some are not concerned with improving their listening system. AR55's suggestion of using "Blue-Jeans" is an excellent one as they do offer substantial quality at a reasonable cost. For me, nothing less than what "Straight-Wire's" mid-level interconnects can deliver. After that, the sky is the limit the more I spend for better interconnects, the better my system will sound. I presently use 12AWG in my four AR-LST system and that is a change from 10AWG I once used. I didn't purchase super costly wires or cables in fact I get in just 'under-the-wire' sort of speak. I use interconnects of the $100. to $150.MSRP variety for one meter length through-out my entire system because anything less sounds awful and certainly not true to the source. Like I said above, I found out by personal testing back in 1978 and learned even more as time went on and I tried different quality/cost cabling and wire. I'm not suggesting that one must use super high-end cabling or wire and take out a second mortgage but at least something more substantial and with-in the realm of high-fidelity. Do the research and do it on high-end sites to educate one self. But, I have to say two of the previous posters suggestions given here are atrocious. Forty five, fifty years ago, I followed the same learning curve as many folks did with phono cartridges as back in the 1970's and I had what was considered the common-man's choice of better quality. A Shure Type III, a Stanton 666EEE. Research through-out all those years led me to the good-stuff and I will never consider the lesser quality again. Later on I graduated up to a Denon 301, 304, Ortofon Rondo Blue, Benz-Micro ACE S. Presently, I use Lyra Delos, Kleos, AudioTechnica ART 9, Ortofon Cadenza Blue, and my latest purchase, a Benz-Micro 'Gull-Wing'. One could ask are there any differences? And to that I ask; does a bear shit in woods? Once again, the keyboard-shield and the spread of gross mis-information runs wild on the internet. And to that crowd I say; I've spent most of my adult hi-fi life striving to be informed and to at least approximate the use of better cabling and wires in my system. Doing all that I could to have the best sound with-in reasonable cost. Anything less is just that, less! See link below.

Here, check it out.

“”I still have difficulty understanding, at least audibly, why, in a a specific situation, with the AR3's, one couldn't get away with with a 20-30 watt tube amp and live happily ever after. “” That was in 2018 and I’m glad to see that apparently you’ve come around to what it means to drive an AR speaker properly, LOL. Though I was suspicious that it wouldn’t be nearly enough in 1971 all I had was my Dynaco ST-35 amp driving my brand new AR-3a’s. Within a month or so I quickly ran out to purchase a new Dynaco ST-120 that I built inside of a few days. Wow, was I so glad I decided to go with high power, or so I thought. At 60 WPC at 8 ohms, I quickly learned that the new amplifier struggled to allow any sort of realistic bass be part of my listening. As it turned out that amp was woefully under powered and ultimately made for an unexciting experience. In 1974 I manned-up and went with all the new rage and beginning of the ‘High-Power-Wars’ back then in the ‘Golden-Age’ of high fidelity and I ran out and bought a new Phase Linear PL-400 amplifier (400WPC@ 4ohms), that made my high expectations of AR’s speakers become a reality. I never looked back. Of course I continued to blow out the weakling AR tweeters repeatedly but, ever since I first purchased my AR-3a’s I learned it was par for the course to use high power. Of course judicious use of the volume control is recommended. Be that as it may, this is why tweeter replacement is such an on-going topic about AR speakers. AR’s design was wonderful, the ‘dome’ and all but, sadly it wasn’t a good match for what the midrange and woofer drivers were capable of putting out. Regarding the ‘Crown’ amps. Those are built for heavy duty use for live theater and live show use with bass-bins, and where large projected sound reinforcement sound is required. Will they sound the same as amplifiers built for in home use, do all amplifiers sound the same which is a long running question in high-fidelity. I think not and if one has quality experience they'd know the truth. Absolutely not, all amplifiers do not sound the same. Think of it these 'CHIP' amps are offered at less than $300. for 200 watts per side. Maybe things have changed but, I still feel there’s no free-bees in high-fidelity. There are loads of opinions though and like belly-buttons, everyone has one. That doesn’t prove inexperienced and ‘parroting’ opinions are valid. What you put inline before the speakers is what you’ll get out. Common-sense should be your guide. Regarding ‘receivers’ well, back in the day and certainly these days. If one didn’t want to be fully involved with getting the best sound possible, didn’t want to really be a dedicated member of the hobby, they bought a receiver and I believe that’s still ongoing these days. If one has reasonable budget and the true willingness to get the best sound possible, they opt for ‘separates’ of pre-amp, and separate amplifier, separate tuner, quality interconnects, etc. Hey John, any relation to Tom Shillue the comedian? P.S. A good tip is to ask the person you're trusting for information and suggestions is to ask about their system and what components they're using and how long they've been in the hobby. Also ask how long have they've owned AR speakers and why do they own them. FM

How do you say in english? TAKEN FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS! FAT-CHANCE NO-WAY NOT ON YOUR LIFE P.S. There is no upgrade from double AR-LST's with ample high-power. I built my dream-system around my speakers. Once I had the speaker and amplifiers set-up as the concrete foundation, I concentrated all of my efforts on the quality of inputs. While doing that I went through the cable trial periods, room treatment, etc. I've professed this philosophy all along in most of my posts here, it's not my first rodeo. In other words, I've reached the top of the mountain and at this point I solely concentrate on my vast musical selections for glorious and sublime listening pleasure.

I’m glad it was you instead of some prodding clod. On the other hand, it was almost me as that price was worth the chance and they were about an hour away and my truck was already warmed up. I viewed your fotos before reading your text and immediately I noticed that you went after the domes first. It figures you would, you being the dome salvaging sort of guy that you are. Must be some deeply rooted breast affliction from your past, I don’t know. Nonetheless, I know you’ll turn out a fully functioning cabinet. Properly set-up In the right room, I’ll bet they’ll sound wonderful. Funny thing was that I’ve always wondered about this model all these years and they would’ve been a fun project but, the room to work, their use and set-up of just one more system and a bit more than a stretch for me as I have more than I can realistically use.

A brilliant and oh so valid post by Fedeleluigi. As difficult as it is to pin-point memory recall I can to a limited degree remember the times I spent in 1967-68 at the biggest store of its type on Staten Island, our first. There I asked the nerdy guys who worked there on several occasions to A B the AR-3 and AR-3a for me. Although their store set-up and placement of the speakers wasn’t optimum, I can recall that I concentrated on the high frequencies and bass tones in my listening. It was very difficult to ascertain any differences except the notion that AR’s documentation in every advertising piece and test-result review I read over and over while deciding which speaker to buy only indicated the AR-3a’s were improved. However, as fate would have it was not to be as I now found myself with a new uncle sam who asked me to spend some time in service to my country. The whole big deal of my dreams had to wait until I paid my debt. Though I had a new Dynaco pre-amp I built and an ST-35 tube amplifier along with my self assembled speakers waiting for me to get back to when I returned. Back in the New York Groove: At my then ripe old age of 20-21 (1971), the AR-3 remained at its listed price while the AR-3a came in at I recall about $25. more each and that increase X 2 for my budget was a big deal. I first entered the local college as my uncle-sam helped me and with any left-over cash I put into my new savings stash for the possible future purchase of either AR's (2AX or 5 ), Dyna A-50, Wharfedale 60 or 70 or Heath Kits' version of some AR speaker. I was torn and I do not lie when I say I had huge piles of the 3 top stereo magazines and 5 shoe boxes full of 'Reader-Service' advertising brochures on just about everything hi-fi and stereo related printed material. Back then being my age and the love of music and stereo was a major part of life's enjoyment. Getting back to the differences, I can’t recall hearing much of a difference at all while in the back of my mind was AR’s popular slogan of “The best speaker we know how to build” constantly echoed. Plus, as that statement kept on repeating I also knew that they were AR's latest and greatest so, if AR thought they were better then, they just have to be. In hindsight, I'm glad I chose the 3a's and I don't have to worry about the midrange falling apart or the tweeter's dome lifting off either as seems to be reported with the AR-3 lately. *(Secretly, they both did lack some highs with 3a's giving an ever slight hint more*. please don't tell others if you're in denial). Or so I fooled myself into believing as I was young and hot and ready to spend some money while I had it in my pocket. Otherwise, I'd have to spend it on gas, and taking my other half to the movies and A&W afterwards and spend it that way. I held onto that 400+ dollars tightly for those speakers I so desperately wanted! Where were you at with AR speakers in 1971? Besides knowing that I could get each cabinet at E.J.Korvettes for AR’s MSRP price, I also knew that I had already located one or two stores and other out-lets of stereo componentry much cheaper to the tune of $196. for each brand spanking-new AR-3a on Utica Ave. in Brooklyn. Ultimately I settled for the reasoning that AR was pushing their newer speaker’s edition because it was up dated and the smaller dome tweeter made more sense too as did the more compliant looking foam roll suspension on the their new woofer, and although the 3a had been out since 1967, I was left with no other determining factor except to gravitate and believe AR’s claim. I mean after all this was AR telling me the newer version was 'better' and I wanted ‘better’ even at that early stage of my AR personal history. This purchase for me was a huge and important one. Another common mistake newcomers make is serial numbers and cabinet finishes. There was one hitch to my decision to purchase the 3a’s, this huge whole-seller of hi-fi components and that was when I finally chose my 1971 date to go buy my ARs and made the drive into that old and more chaotic than ever boro of Brooklyn, the whole-seller only had one left. I had to decide either to forget my exciting first-time purchase or take one and come back for the second. When I uncomfortably explained to the salesman that I didn’t want to do that because of my fear that the cabinets would not match, he gave me all the reasons why there would only be a rare day when anyone could buy AR speakers and have the serial numbers be close, much less mean anything or even the finishes being identical and that was: Suppliers sell different numbers of speakers at any given time. He explained that some purchasers come in and buy pairs while often times single and multiple numbers are sold therefor serial numbers were mixed and and often times not sequential. In terms of matching wood finishes, AR’s cabinet assembly line could not guarantee the same grain of wood on every piece of veneer to match as trees don’t match grain and color while growing. Yes, the cabinet assemblers may make some attempts at matching wood grain but, typically that is something that couldn’t be assured unless the list price was higher due to more hours used in production. I took just the one and went back for the second hoping the cabinet finishes would be close. Luckily, mine were close enough. So, all of you non-cognoscenti folks out there, please stop with making any points about serial numbers or finishes, as it’s not a valid point. And if someone has close serial numbers and or similar grain patterns, consider it only the luck of the draw. FM