AR9 Teledyn Big LF Caps where?

[JKent]

1 hour ago, Pk Vintage said:

Also they say DC.Does that matter?

Yes. All capacitors have a voltage rating, usually DC. If you replace the caps, the voltage rating MUST be equal or greater. Looking at the schematic, the 470uF is 50VDC and the 2500uF is 60VDC. You can go higher--even MUCH higher--but never lower.

btw--I would never cast aspersions on forum member Diamonds&Rust but I would not take any one person's opinion as gospel. BUT if you are convinced that his way is the right way, why not just send him a PM and ask what caps to buy and where to get them?

-Kent

[AR surround]

IIRC, Diamonds & Rust (Bret) got the large cap (2500uF) directly from Jantzen, but they were somewhat of a larger value.    As recommended by member Stimpy, I used a 470uF Mundorf Raw E-Cap in the 470uF spot and a bundle of 3x680uF + 1x470uF Raw E-Caps to make up the 2500uF value.   Some consider the voltage rating of the Raw E-Caps a bit on the low side for the AR9 but both member kkc, who also used E-Caps, and I haven't had any problems.

[JKent]

20 hours ago, Pk Vintage said:

Do you have a suggestion. AR-Pro recommended the Surplus Sales of Nebraska site. But you say no NPE caps. ??

Right. I've bought lots of stuff from Surplus Sales of Nebraska but those big can caps are not "NPE" and therefore not suitable.

Do I have a suggestion? Yes. Several, but you won't like them :

1. Get an LCR meter
2. Test the caps
3. If the big caps are good, keep them
4. if it ain't broke don't fix it
5. Don't buy used caps
6. If you must replace the big ones, 500uF is fine for the 470. Make sure it is bi-polar. This would work https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/electrolytic-cap-100vdc/bennic-500-mfd-electrolytic-caps/  so would the Mundorf E (electrolytic) cap Stimpy recommended.
7. For the 2500, maybe one 500 and 2 of these https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/electrolytic-cap-100vdc/bennic-1000-mfd-electrolytic-caps/
8. Replace the smaller caps with film and test the new ones before installing. Carli caps are good, inexpensive, have close to the appropriate ESR https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/carli-capacitors/

Good luck with the rebuild.

-Kent

[ra.ra]

I definitely agree with the previous two extremely helpful posts, but it's still a little difficult to offer specific advice without knowing which type of caps the OP has or more importantly, how they might measure. Since we are still primarily discussing only the largest caps...... and if we assume that that they do require replacement (see Tom and Roy's posts), if this was my project, I'd probably pursue Stimpy and AR surround's Mundorf solution: excellent manufacturer, inexpensive reputable capacitors, readily available. The voltage is adequately rated - - slightly higher than the originals - - and the LF circuits will be good for years to come without breaking the bank.

[Pk Vintage]

1 hour ago, JKent said:

Right. I've bought lots of stuff from Surplus Sales of Nebraska but those big can caps are not "NPE" and therefore not suitable.

Do I have a suggestion? Yes. Several, but you won't like them :

1. Get an LCR meter
2. Test the caps
3. If the big caps are good, keep them
4. if it ain't broke don't fix it
5. Don't buy used caps
6. If you must replace the big ones, 500uF is fine for the 470. Make sure it is bi-polar. This would work https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/electrolytic-cap-100vdc/bennic-500-mfd-electrolytic-caps/  so would the Mundorf E (electrolytic) cap Stimpy recommended.
7. For the 2500, maybe one 500 and 2 of these https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/electrolytic-cap-100vdc/bennic-1000-mfd-electrolytic-caps/
8. Replace the smaller caps with film and test the new ones before installing. Carli caps are good, inexpensive, have close to the appropriate ESR https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/carli-capacitors/

Good luck with the rebuild.

-Kent

Thanks so much, now we are getting somewhere that I can understand. With all the info I am pretty close to making an order. A couple things, I have a call into jantzen to see if they have the Big Caps. If not I will go the Bennic route as suggested or the 3x 680 Mundorfs.

I will get the Mundorf 470.

What is your opinion on  Solen Caps? They are here in Canada so it makes a very easy order with no exchange and cheaper shipping. You suggest the Carli film. Is that a better choice? I have installed Solens before but in small EPI's. They did sound a little bright. Most likely not a good indicator of quality.

Here is a list that was recommended in a different post:

Per speaker

LF

2 x  Bennic 1000uf 100V 

1 x "Bennic 500uf 100V

1 x Bennic 330uf 100V

1 x Bennic 140uf 100v

Mid

1 x Bennic 80uf  100V

1 x Solen 30uf fast cap 400V

1 x Solen 6uf Fast Cap 400V

1 x Solen 40uf Fast Cap 400V

2 x Solen 12uf Fast Cap 400V wired in parallel

High

1 x Solen 4uf Fast Cap 400V

1 x Solen 6uf Fast Cap 400V

I will replace the 330 and 140 on this list with the Mundorf 470 suggested.

 

Paul

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Pk Vintage]

Sorry about moving off just the big caps but it seems to be going that way now that a decision is close.

[Pk Vintage]

21 minutes ago, ra.ra said:

I definitely agree with the previous two extremely helpful posts, but it's still a little difficult to offer specific advice without knowing which type of caps the OP has or more importantly, how they might measure. Since we are still primarily discussing only the largest caps...... and if we assume that that they do require replacement (see Tom and Roy's posts), if this was my project, I'd probably pursue Stimpy and AR surround's Mundorf solution: excellent manufacturer, inexpensive reputable capacitors, readily available. The voltage is adequately rated - - slightly higher than the originals - - and the LF circuits will be good for years to come without breaking the bank.

I am changing the Big caps no matter what and I do like Mundorfs. So that may work if Jantzen does not have them.

[ar_pro]

Kent is 100% correct about the Surplus Sales caps - they are not the required NPE type. My bad.

It's been quite awhile since I've recapped an AR-9, and since the original woofer capacitors are now a decade older, my previous inclination/opinion toward only replacing the upper-range caps could certainly be subject to review. The suggestions you've received should be a big help, and these speakers are certainly worthy of the time & expense to put them as right as possible.

I'd like to suggest that you also take the time to thoroughly check the three level-control switches in each speaker, as they can be prone to intermittency.

[Pk Vintage]

2 hours ago, ar_pro said:

Kent is 100% correct about the Surplus Sales caps - they are not the required NPE type. My bad.

It's been quite awhile since I've recapped an AR-9, and since the original woofer capacitors are now a decade older, my previous inclination/opinion toward only replacing the upper-range caps could certainly be subject to review. The suggestions you've received should be a big help, and these speakers are certainly worthy of the time & expense to put them as right as possible.

I'd like to suggest that you also take the time to thoroughly check the three level-control switches in each speaker, as they can be prone to intermittency.

Thank you I will. They are currently working. I will hit them with a shot of deoxit when I am in there. 

[xmas111]

If you're concerned about keeping the original look of the crossovers you can "stuff" the big can caps.  I did that on a set of 9's a few years ago.

Here's the link to show "stuffing" the caps.

And the best part is they sound better this way.......

Good luck with you restoration, you'll love the 9's!

[Stimpy]

9 hours ago, Pk Vintage said:

Thanks so much, now we are getting somewhere that I can understand. With all the info I am pretty close to making an order. A couple things, I have a call into jantzen to see if they have the Big Caps. If not I will go the Bennic route as suggested or the 3x 680 Mundorfs.

I will get the Mundorf 470.

What is your opinion on  Solen Caps? They are here in Canada so it makes a very easy order with no exchange and cheaper shipping. You suggest the Carli film. Is that a better choice? I have installed Solens before but in small EPI's. They did sound a little bright. Most likely not a good indicator of quality.

Here is a list that was recommended in a different post:

Per speaker

LF

2 x  Bennic 1000uf 100V 

1 x "Bennic 500uf 100V

1 x Bennic 330uf 100V

1 x Bennic 140uf 100v

Mid

1 x Bennic 80uf  100V

1 x Solen 30uf fast cap 400V

1 x Solen 6uf Fast Cap 400V

1 x Solen 40uf Fast Cap 400V

2 x Solen 12uf Fast Cap 400V wired in parallel

High

1 x Solen 4uf Fast Cap 400V

1 x Solen 6uf Fast Cap 400V

I will replace the 330 and 140 on this list with the Mundorf 470 suggested.

 

Paul

 

 

 

 

 

 

Parts Connexion is also a Canadian parts supply company.  I've bought from them before, and had no issues.  They also offer parts matching, if needed or desired.  Plus, Parts Connexion offers a very wide variety of quality Poly and NPE capacitors.  They have the Mundorf E-Caps as well.  So, you could buy all the caps from one vendor, if that helps.

 

[JKent]

Paul

I didn't know you are in Canada so that becomes a consideration when selecting parts and sellers. Carli caps are good and inexpensive here in the US. I don't know if they are available in Canada or what the duty would be if you bought from Madisound. MANY people use Solen caps and recommend them, so I don't think you can go wrong there. Mundorf has an excellent reputation so I think that's also a good choice.

Stimpy's recommendation of Parts Connexion is a good one--I've bought caps from them. btw--another Canadian company I like very much is justradios.com. Unfortunately most of their film caps are too small for your purposes--just like to give them a plug.

Solen film and Mundorf NPE sounds like a good bet.

-Kent

[ra.ra]

4 hours ago, xmas111 said:

If you're concerned about keeping the original look of the crossovers you can "stuff" the big can caps.

Really great restoration work on that second pair of AR-9's, John - - your projects are always great fun to follow - - thorough restorations with creative solutions and excellent documentation. Thanks for sharing.

[Pk Vintage]

Home from a quick get away and back onto the AR9 re Cap adventure. 

I have decided to go with the Mundorf E Cap bundle for the LF. I used Mundorf's in several other speakers I have IMF TLS 50s, Kappa 8, Whafedale Mach 9s. Technics SB E200s and they all turned out very well.

I am going to start a new thread  like I said I would for the Mid and High frequency suggestions.

Thanks all for your input.

[harry398]

On 8/9/2017 at 11:04 PM, RoyC said:

I agree with Tom....These seldom need to be replaced.

Roy

interesting Roy.  

I just got a set.   You have found the original caps being good?

[ra.ra]

On August 9, 2017 at 10:49 PM, tysontom said:

You might want to consider measuring the caps before you replace them.

Tom has spelled out the best way to confirm whether caps might require replacement.

[Pk Vintage]

For $25.00 per speaker I decided not to take a chance on 40 year old caps. The research I have done shows they can read in spec unless you have very sophisticated testing equipment. "Diamonds and Rust" wrote a very good thread on the results of his changing out the LF caps. 

[Pete B]

On 8/14/2017 at 9:21 AM, ra.ra said:

Do these pics represent the type of components you are seeking? If so, these listings are all over the internet on a major auction site.

People, when you buy from a surplus house you might find items that age well and are a good value or

you might be buying junk.  These caps, besides being polarized and designed for power supplies are 

very old and therefore worthless.  They have date codes. note the 9717L marking on the first cap it was

manufactured in the 17th week of 1997, next 9031L, you can figure it out 31st week of 1990, third cap,

17th week of 1981,  last one 11th week of 1991.  They belong in the garbage.  You can buy modern high

quality caps from the major suppliers, they are usually not non-polar but they can be wired back-to-back.

[Pete B]

On 8/14/2017 at 9:21 AM, ra.ra said:

Do these pics represent the type of components you are seeking? If so, these listings are all over the internet on a major auction site.

People, when you buy from a surplus house you might find items that age well and are a good value or

you might be buying junk.  These caps, besides being polarized and designed for power supplies are 

very old and therefore worthless.  They have date codes. note the 9717L marking on the first cap it was

manufactured in the 17th week of 1997, next 9031L, you can figure it out 31st week of 1990, third cap,

17th week of 1981,  last one 11th week of 1991.  They belong in the garbage.  You can buy modern high

quality caps from the major suppliers, they are usually not non-polar but they can be wired back-to-back.

 

Caps must be tested at rated voltage (or slightly above) for leakage basic tests are not enough.

 

[lARrybody]

I was thinking about using three Mumford 680’s and a 470 wired in parallel for the 2500. Is my thinking flawed?  

[DavidR]

You could use (2) 165uF + a 140uF Bennic NPE for the 470uF and (2) 1000uF + 500 or (5) 500uF for the 2500uF. Available from Madisound.

[Pete B]

Electrolytic caps use very thin foil so that a lot of area can be packed into a small volume,

this thin foil has fairly high resistance per inch.  Normal electrolytics have a single attachment

point for the connection terminals.  The large can caps have many attachment points in order

to reduce the resistance (ESR) and inductance (ESL) caused by the foil.  We should try to compute

the ESR of the group of caps at the important frequency.  The 2500 uF resonates at about 28 Hz 

and we'd like the ESR to be (much) lower than the DC resistance of the inductor or roughly equal

to the original cap.  The 470 uF should have low ESR around 200 Hz where it is working in the 

crossover.  Let me see if I can find some data on large can caps from that era.