Questions: AR-3A or AR-5 or AR-2AX?

[patrickw]

Hello. My first post here.  

I cannot tell you what a wonderful resource this forum was when I bought a pair of AR-4xa speakers (for the curious: real walnut veneer, cloth surrounds, and toggle switch). With the knowledge I gleaned from posts the forum I did a full restoration on my speakers and I love them. 

But then, as some of you may know from experience, curiosity took over. I wanted more of that great AR sound. I want it bigger, bolder. I wanted a three-way speaker. In my small study the AR-4xa are great. But in the larger room, I am thinking of replacing the Snell type E or augmenting them. 

A couple of questions.

The AR-3A is a 4 ohm speaker. Will I have problems with that and running the Snell's (8 ohm) with the same amplifier? Can I put them on the a speaker selector (I want to have an outdoor speaker set driven by that amp too) and not fry the amplifier? Is there an issue running 4 ohms on the A channel and 8 ohms on the B channel? I admit ohms confuse me. The amp can handle 4 ohm speakers (it is a Mcintosh 1700), I just don't know how the mixing and matching of ohms affects the amp. 

If it turns out 4 ohm and 8 ohm speakers being driven by the same amp is not preferred, should I go with the pair of 2-AX or 5's? I know the 5 was a successor of sorts. And I want the rich, three-way sound. Was the 5 a worthy successor? But are any of them as good as the 3A's? Will I be disappointed by not hearing that full 3-A sound?

I have a line on all three pairs, different sellers of course. Some will need more work than others, and I am prepared to re-cap, re-dope and refinish as necessary. I have heard the 3As and 2AX. I loved them both, but they both could use some work (re-capping most likely). The 2AX are considerably less than the 3As, and the 2AX are sequential serials with I think finished pine, but the switches were bypassed. The 3A's are the same owner for the last 40 years, and have not been messed with, so they will need some work. But the surrounds are in good shape. The 5s I am coordinating an audition.

None of the speakers are cheap, they seem to be the going price for not destroyed cabinets, original driver speakers that will need some work. My requirements really is pleasure. I love the deep, natural sound of an AR speaker. Even with my smaller 4xa the sound is dimensional, as if the musicians are there in the room, especially with Jazz and acoustic music. 

And no getting all the speakers is not an option. Though we all know we wish it always was an option. 

Which vintage AR three-way speaker should I pursue?

Any thoughts, insights, directives, warnings or recommendations are thoroughly appreciated. 

Thanks!

Patrick

[ar_pro]

Those are some fundamental questions, Patrick; almost like having to choose a favorite child.

Your Mac 1700 has a circuit that monitors the power output, and will restrict the drive to the output transistors should the impedance fall too low. That said, I'd be reluctant to parallel another set of speakers with the demanding AR-3a, although some here have done this without issue.

The AR-5 didn't succeed the 3a, but was - pretty much - a 10"-woofered version that existed at the same time in the lineup. This recent topic brought forth some good observations & opinions on the differences between the two:

Either speaker was considered an improvement on the AR-2ax, which was an amazingly successful system in its own right.

[Aadams]

Is this a trick question?  I'll bite.  Get the 3s.  Worst case is get a speaker selector switch with an impedance limiter.

[patrickw]

No trick questions! I really just want to hear people's thoughts. People here have years of knowledge and experience and I cannot tell you how valuable that is. 

I myself was leaning towards the 3As, I just did not want to miss out on another equally as good (and cheaper) option. 

I will read through the AR-5 thread again to glean more. 

In the meantime, are there amplifiers that people have had success running the 3As in parallel with other speakers? I would be curious. 

Thanks!

Patrick

 

 

 

[Aadams]

48 minutes ago, patrickw said:

No trick questions!

Just having some fun.  To me the answer is obvious but it could be that you listen to music that would never test the limits of the 3a in which case you could get the 5 and hear what a 3a sounds like without any extra hassle with amplifiers.

If you get the 3s IMO it would be less trouble to either get a speaker selector switch with an impedance protection circuit or another power amp and feed it from the tape in/out on your amp if it is available.  Used speaker selector switches are cheap and dead simple to use.  I was introduced to them on this forum by ra ra who recommended an Adcom GFS 6,  which I later purchased.  

 

[stupidhead]

hmmm...  I am inclined to say get the 5s. And not because of any reason other than they come available less frequently than the other two options. Once they are refurbed they are a beautiful sounding set of speakers, and will reinforce your comment

5 hours ago, patrickw said:

But then, as some of you may know from experience, curiosity took over. I wanted more of that great AR sound. I want it bigger, bolder. I wanted a three-way speaker.

which is oh so true.

Of course cabinet condition is important...

[ra.ra]

Hi Patrick, and welcome to the CSP forum - - what a great first post! My first step into AR speakers (1970 or '71) was with the AR-4x, and even though the 4xa was a poorly marketed product, I think it is the slightly better speaker model with that 1-1/4" tweeter.

I can't help you much with the mix-and-match of various impedance speakers, but knowing that you have Mcintosh power, you're already in a pretty good starting position. I'm pretty sure that many Mac amps (and receivers?) can comfortably reach down into 2-ohm territory.

Your primary question about which larger speaker to acquire is not an easy one  - - - as others have begun to mention, there are many variables to consider. The 2ax had various iterations, and so did the 3a. Basically, the 5 was mostly consistent except for minor woofer variations. Purchase cost will be one factor, but restoration costs will be a whole other ball of wax, dependent on condition of cabinets, grilles, drivers, badges, and crossovers. Some woofers have cloth surrounds, some have foam ......... etc., etc.

The decision is not simply a matter of how much LF bass to purchase. Evaluation of the tweeters and mids is also important - these aged drivers frequently exhibit diminished performance and can be expensive to replace. Also, there is the matter of physical size and visual appeal - - the 3a is only slightly larger than the 5 or 2ax and is considerably heavier, but it does have the unique wide face frame trim that the others do not. Additionally, many different wood veneers were offered for cabinet finish - - - is the WAF a consideration?

[lARrybody]

Hey Patrick, glad you found this form. I was where you are six years ago. I have to warn you that this AR thing is a lot like trying to eat one Lays potato chip. I started with a pair of nice 2ax's which I restored and still have. Then it got a little overboard. Maybe more than a little. As for your description I would personally lean toward the original condition 3a's. Again there are lots of considerations as far as condition, driver performance, and improvements. Personally I have two sets of 5's that I am very impressed with. The first set came to me already restored and the second set I restored to match. This involved some driver replacement, but the results are well worth it. I have them stacked together with a Adcom power amp. You might want also to consider some other models like the KLH model 5 and the AR model 11. Both excellent sounding speakers. Look around and you will eventually find that set that you will feel comfortable with. I just want to warn you about the multiple speaker acquisition syndrome I fell privy to. Let us know what you find.

[patrickw]

I appreciate the replies. I re-read the long discussion of the AR-5 and whether it should have been a 12" speaker. Great, great insights to be had. Even from those who disagreed on some of the finer points. I learned a lot. 

It seems I should not let the 4 ohm power of the 3A's scare me away. If need be, perhaps I should rethink my amp/receiver. But that is down the line.  I don't listen to my music at truly loud volumes, so that would not be the issue. It may be just trying to find the right pairing that is most important. 

 I will check out the other drivers in addition to the woofers to see if they are in need of attention. Is the restoration guide the best resource to look for specs on the different drivers? Or if someone knows of a thread that details it, please chime in. 

ra.ra thanks for your reply. 

11 hours ago, ra.ra said:

Additionally, many different wood veneers were offered for cabinet finish - - - is the WAF a consideration?

What did you mean by this? I could not find what WAF refers to.

 

Patrick

 

 

[patrickw]

Anyone have any experience with a Russound 4.2 speaker selector with impedance matching? I have a friend who would sell me his. 

[Aadams]

45 minutes ago, patrickw said:

What did you mean by this? I could not find what WAF refers to.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wife_acceptance_factor

 

 

[patrickw]

hahaha

Here I was looking for definitions of some sort of electronic impedance engineering issue. 

As long as everything looks beautiful it is fine. I am not going to install a wall of speakers, but a set of restored speakers with lovely cabinets is not an issue.

 

 

 

[ra.ra]

WAF: the first time I encountered this acronym, I had no idea what the bleep it was, but like yourself, I was amused by the concept.

Apparently, there are two versions of the 1700 receiver: early and late - - - if you have capability for two sets of speakers, it sounds like you probably have the later version (with loudness control concentric with balance control), as discussed in link attached. Product info shown below appears to be for early version, so you may want to double check the specs and wiring configurations for multiple sets of speakers.

http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/strange-mcintosh-1700.113441/

 

[Steve F]

It’s very rare indeed to have the option of buying 3a’s, 5’s and 2ax’s all at the same time. If it were me, I’d go for the 3a’s, and not simply because of their raw performance advantage. 

Although any vintage AR, properly restored, is a fine representative of the Classic AR period and evokes the memories and feel of that time period, the 3a, to my mind, is something truly special in audio history. 

It was an acknowledged industry-leading speaker, lauded by Julian Hirsch at Stereo Review, the editors at High Fidelity Magazine and Audio magazine. Reviews  of that level of flat-out excellence are really extraordinary. So from a technical/engineering standpoint, the 3a was a breakout product.

It is one of the very few consumer products in any industry to have become so famous and have such a high profile that the model number alone was all that was necessary to identify it. No company name needed, thank you.

“What speakers do you have?”

“3a’s.”

Precious few products in any time period in any product category reach that level.

Also, undeniably, AR was a controversial company during the 3a’s lifespan, from 1967-75. Regular retail stereo stores disliked AR because of the slim profit margins a dealer had to suffer through, so many dealers (who didn’t carry AR) took to displaying one or two pairs of AR speakers on their speaker wall and trying to make them look and sound bad in comparison to the brand they were pushing (Advent, EPI, JBL, whatever). It was an easy thing to do, since AR had that laid-back sound that didn’t sound particularly impressive anyway in the dead acoustic environment of the typical dealer soundroom and then many dealers would either leave the level controls at ‘Norm’ instead of ‘Max’ or they actually turned them down.

The biggest object of these dealers’ scorn:

The 3a, of course. If they could ‘kill the king,’ then they had accomplished their goal.

So no matter how you look at it, from a purely performance or historical significance standpoint, the 3a stands alone. Get them.

Steve F.

[patrickw]

That's my 1700! I ended up paying about $600 after I had it serviced, but I certainly have not been able to find a cabinet for $29...

You are correct, I have the second generation that allows for two sets of speakers. I have a reprint of the manual for the original. I am not sure if there is a new manual for the second generation, or if the specs differ. 

I should probably head over to AK and ask there. 

Thanks!

[patrickw]

Steve,

Thanks for your insights. I wandered through your own thread on the differences and you had great things to say. I agree with you about AR sound, I am very happy with the 4xa's I have and they seduced me, and now I fall for that natural AR sound. And if I want to hear the ultimate AR sound I should probably go for the speaker that is the epitome of the AR sound. It was their marquee. They were not running ads with Miles Davis and his set of AR-5's.  

I already told the owner of the 3A's I am interested in them. But it may be a bit before I get them in my hands on them because of the price, but he has kindly allowed me to make payments to him. He wanted to sell them to someone who would appreciate them, so he is working with me. 

I will be sure to post the photos of the 3As when I do have them. 

 

[rl1856]

Questions for you:    How big is your room ?   How loud will you listen ?       Room size and configuration will affect how a speaker with true deep bass capability will sound.   Volume level will determine your power requirement(s).

With no other variables, I would purchase the 3a pair.  If you don't like them, they are the easiest of the 3 models to sell without losing any money.   2ax is a known quantity and the 5 is slowly increasing in value.

Your amplifier is rated for 40wpc into 8 or 4 ohms.   I assume the 1700 is rated as conservatively as other Mac  components thus it should deliver more than rated power in use.  While you may not use all of the available power, the ability of the amp section to delivery clean power will improve reproduction of deep bass and musical peaks.

You should have no problem driving 2 sets of speaker from the 1700.  I would not play both at the same time however.

Room size and configuration can be tricky.  I own prs of 2ax, 5, 3a, 92 and can say that each sounds different.  Effortless deep bass- the 3a.   Real world room integration- 5 followed by the 92 then the 2ax.   To me, and in my usage, the smaller woofer models do a better job of integrating into a room.   In some installations, 3a bass can be overwhelming, and actually affect reproduction of the midrange.   On the other hand others prefer the 3a and would not consider the 10 inch woofer models.   I can say that the 3a will overload a small room.  The 3a really needs space around it to perform at its best, but also enough space to allow you to experiment with placement to get the best and most integrated bass response.  Most feel that the best listening position for the 3a is at least 10 ft away- again implying use of a larger room.

Good luck and you have good choices !

[lakecat]

No expert here on sound but have had roughly about thirty pairs of assorted AR's go thru here over the last seven or eight years. 

I love bass so the 3 and 3a have been my favs....but some ten inch woofer models that have surprised me is the AR12 and the latest possession...an early model 2ax. This alnico ax is all untouched original and the musicality that comes out of it is jaw dropping. 

I have tried to like the 5's but the bass just isn't there for me so gone. Later version ax's...also gone. 2a's I had...gone. But....this ax....just something about that melts my butter.

Now I have to bring the 12's down here and compare them.

[Rich W]

The early AR-2ax has totally revised my opinion of ARs mid-sixties offerings.  At first, I thought it was simply a poorer and wannabe brother to the AR3 and 3a, until I happened upon a pair at a yard sale for the undesputable price of $50. Saving the details for a future post, the early cloth-woofer and phenolic tweeter 2ax demonstrated, in my listening space, superior sound to my restored AR-3a's.  This reinforces my view that the AR3/AR-3a's need a large room in which to "bloom".  For smaller, more modest sized rooms, an AR-2ax or AR-5 will likely yield better sound.  

Waiting for the universe to reveal a pair of AR5's to me!  Can't wait!

Hope this helps.  Don't think you have to pay 3/3a prices to get superior sound.

Rich W

 

 

[drumplex]

I have a pair of AR 5s and much prefer them to the 3a but as you can tell by the various comments this is a very personal decision.  If at all possible, you should listen to both with your type of music in a room similar in size to your listening area.  I personally find the bass too dominate in the AR 3a.  I may be the only person you will ever hear say this but back in the dark ages of 1957 or 1958 when I bought my first AR speaker i chose an AR 2 over the AR 3 for the same reason.  Go with what sounds best to you.  

[patrickw]

Long awaited update...

Sorry to all who may have been wondering what happened. And thanks to everyone who weighed in with their great insights.

More than a few events transpired, the upshot of which involved more AR speakers. Of course.  I also had a busy fall work wise so I am finally getting a chance to dig into the speakers. 

Long story short I bought the AR-3As, and while I think I may have overpaid a bit ($900). I did manage to find a pair that looks very good for the most part. 7.5/10. I will post my own thread on those as I have some questions on making those sing.

Part of the reason I was happy to buy from this seller and at that price is that he allowed me to make 3 installment payments. And he told me he had another pair of speakers he would throw in. I did not think much about it because I was really there for the 3As. But I was pleasantly surprised to find out they were AR-78LS speakers.  I have questions about those.

And of course lastly while all this was going on, I happened upon a pair of AR-2s that seemed too good too pass up.  Documentation and questions about the AR-2's in another thread.

Hold on for the threads...

[GD70]

Glad you decided on the 3a's. Once you get them, I'm curious to see if these are the earlier versions with the desirable Alnico cloth surround woofers. I recently restored a pair from 1969 that had these woofers. Excellent sounding when completed. Chris rebuilt the tweeters as one was dead.

These will sound great even in smallerish rooms because their sound is so full. At lower volumes you can still feel the bass. Yes, they are great for larger rooms as well, but in the more intimate setting, they will shine as well!

Glenn

[patrickw]

Glenn, 

I am very happy with the 3A and I am excited to get these up and performing at their best. 

I just put up photos on my thread here.

Please chime in with any insights or wisdom you have. I know you have a few of these under your belt...

Best, 

Patrick

[sarals]

I'm a WAF ( ;-) )  and I acceptance factor this thread!

[LennyGATC]

Hi,

I was just looking for info on the AR company and I came upon your post.  I am glad you went with the 3A's.  They are probably one of the best speakers I have ever heard.  My experience with them was in a lecture hall at Queens College back in the 70's.  The professor was making some sort of point using his stereo equipment, the speakers being the 3A's.  I could have sworn that Phil Ochs was on stage. I was blown away as I'm sure you are every time you turn on your stereo.  Enjoy ! (a little jealous).