Jump to content

Couldn't resist! Now what? Franken-3a


stupidhead

Recommended Posts

Hi gang, it has been a while. I have been laying low a bit as life has been busy over the past year. The house project along with work and family has pretty much consumed me. The good news is we are nearing completion on the house which should free up some hobby time for me. In the meantime I still have come across a few things that I just couldn't pass up. A set of EPI 100 in really nice shape a few months ago.....they can wait as they are in their original boxes, and have been for at least 20 years. A variety of other interesting stuff but that can wait as well and I haven't really done much in the way of rehabs with the house project consuming a lot of spare time. A few days ago I stumbled upon these and for $50 I couldn't resist. I have heard this story from others but hadn't experienced it, it goes like this. There was this mountain (small, more like a hill) of low fi speakers in various stages of dis-assembly/rehab and peaking out was the AR build look on one set. It also appeared to be a thicker than average cabinet and....could it be....yes, a set of AR 3s and/or 3as. This guys Dad was a flipper of stereo stuff and these were just part of the queue of projects that were left after Dad died a couple months ago. Trying not to show any excitement I dug them out and gave them a closer look.

 

faces.JPG

 

a couple of notable things. The seller had no details on what Dad had done or not done to this set and the woofers were not to be found. As you can see there is one tweet and one mid still in cabs, also there is a loose tweet and mid that had been extracted and monkeyed with by someone. Actually you can see the screen for the mid in the bottom of the right side cab. Pics to follow on the drivers not shown. Also note that the wax block is missing from right side cab but thankfully the xovers are mostly intact. Curiously one pot is missing but all inductors are there!

 

cabs.JPG

 

cabs aren't terrible and should clean up nicely and with a bit of veneer work should be worthy for sure. The paper serial number page missing on one and ripped on the other did not reveal a great deal, but seeing that large wax block in one of the cabs I suspected they were early run 3as. Later inspection of drivers suggests late '67 production.

 

rear_2_1.JPG

 

rear_2.JPG

 

to be continued....

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 96
  • Created
  • Last Reply

the next thing to view is the drivers. As I said there are no woofers associated with this acquisition but thankfully these OEM 12" drivers are routinely available and will keep my eyes out for a matched set, preferably from the same era. If anyone has or knows of a worthy set please chime in. I haven't done enough research yet and I wonder if a cloth surround set from some 3s would be drop in replacements? I prefer the sound of these over foam versions but not sure if any 3as came with cloth? Also I am generally an OEM minded kind of guy so non AR are out of the question.

Here is the still mounted tweeter which looks original but also appears to have been dinked around with (maybe Dad?) The mounting ring may be compromised but it would appear to be all there and hopefully salvageable. Recent posts from Chris1this1 have me encouraged, and if Roy endorses then I need to do no more research! LOL

 

tweet_1.JPG

 

the back side stamp is smeared (like so many) and not really able to determine confidently what it says.

 

tweet_1rear.JPG

 

and the still mounted mid

 

mid_1.JPG

 

which other than the wires being tucked under the ring seems also to be all there. Please note the staples in the connection cutout. Whoever did all of this was ham handed for sure.

the back side of this driver again reveals nothing we can be sure of.

 

mid_1rear.JPG

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Looks like dad came across some messed up specimens, went ahead and got them then parted out some of teh viable pieces.  My best guess anyway.

Going to be all about if the remaining drivers are viable.  Does not look good but fingers crossed.

Now show us some images of your listening area!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fantastic find Geoff! Great cabs and you have lots of options: Use original tweets? Have them rehabbed (pricey)? Install Hi-Vi's? And the mids--are they still good? Of course you need woofs. So many choices. I was fascinated by ar_pro's 91s in 3a cabinets.

My own 3s were sort of the mirror image of yours: I had a pair of good woofers but one mid and both tweets were shot. Those ended up as quasi-3a's with Hi-Vi tweets, AR-11 mids and a built from scratch 3a crossover.

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?/topic/6284-my-ar-33a-saga-a-csp-group-effort/#comment-87255

Deciding WHAT to do is part of the fun! Best of luck with those!

-Kent

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, der said:

Yes, early 3a woofers had cloth surrounds. I own a pair myself.

der

this is very encouraging, thanx. I seemed to recall something about cloth on early run 3as. I suppose the only thing to do is start watching for a set (hopefully matched) of cloth 12" woofers!

7 hours ago, DavidDru said:

Looks like dad came across some messed up specimens, went ahead and got them then parted out some of teh viable pieces.  My best guess anyway.

Going to be all about if the remaining drivers are viable.  Does not look good but fingers crossed.

Now show us some images of your listening area!

David, I suspect you may be right. I also suspect Dad fancied himself a repair guy. In the end here I find it curious that there is one mid extracted and dinked with, one tweet extracted and dinked with, one pot extracted and now missing, one wax block removed and now missing (one less I have to throw away). Just seems curious to me. On the drivers, as you will see there are some challenges there for sure. One step at a time.

as for the space

 

3_9_17.JPG

 

this is a pic from today. we are most definitely coming in for a landing. this view is from the kitchen, speakers are 13' spread from furthest opposing corners and chairs are 15' from the wall in this particular pic so you get an idea of perspective.

 

6 hours ago, JKent said:

Fantastic find Geoff! Great cabs and you have lots of options: Use original tweets? Have them rehabbed (pricey)? Install Hi-Vi's? And the mids--are they still good? Of course you need woofs. So many choices. I was fascinated by ar_pro's 91s in 3a cabinets.

My own 3s were sort of the mirror image of yours: I had a pair of good woofers but one mid and both tweets were shot. Those ended up as quasi-3a's with Hi-Vi tweets, AR-11 mids and a built from scratch 3a crossover.

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?/topic/6284-my-ar-33a-saga-a-csp-group-effort/#comment-87255

Deciding WHAT to do is part of the fun! Best of luck with those!

-Kent

hey Kent, thanx for the encouragement. yes indeed many possibilities here. the thing I kept hearing in my head was "this gives you the opportunity to compare 3s and 3as" and maybe will trigger me to pull out the 3s I have tucked away.

 

back to the drivers

 

I have checked the tweet and mid (disconnected) that have leads with my meter and 2.6/2.7 which I believe are good numbers. I have not tried putting a source to them yet.

the other mid had been monkeyed with a bit

mid_2.JPG

 

and a quick check with meter I get open, bummer. a closer inspection may reveal a broken lead at the solder point but not holding out much hope.

the rear

mid_2rear.JPG

 

stamp toys with me a bit as it almost looks like something cypher able, but I got nothing.

and the crowning blow is the other tweet.

tweet_2.JPG

the leads are gone, any remnant of a dome as well. I don't know enough about this stuff but it would seem fatal to me. possibly there is a way to revive this?

the only redeeming thing is finally I get a date I think I make out as an Oct 67 stamp.

tweet_2rear.JPG

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, this will be an interesting project. At least you seem to have two nice cabinets, two potentially functioning drivers (that first tweeter sets a new standard for fugly!), and some salvageable guts from the crossovers. You seem to have a real nose for finding these relics, so I'm sure that with a little patience and perseverance, you'll find a way to put together a great speaker pair. Anyone who has followed your projects knows you tend to be a stickler for full original authenticity, but in this case - - no s/n paper labels, no matching pair of functional drivers, and barely any evidence for accurate production dating - - you just might want to consider an alternate approach similar to the excellent project by ar_pro that JKent has already mentioned. Just my $0.02 from the peanut gallery.

Good luck with this project. On a related topic, PM sent.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, DavidDru said:

Place is looking great.  Trim and molding and whalla!  You leaving the I-Beam as we see it now?  Encasing it?

Thanx Dave, as you see it, probably clean them up a bit and oiled but exposed has always been the vision. The whole area will have an industrial sort of vibe to it.

Kitchen cabs are next. There will be an island separating the two areas.

kitchen.thumb.JPG.ac41e79775b93e3546922a48660a4511.JPG

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, ra.ra said:

Well, this will be an interesting project. At least you seem to have two nice cabinets, two potentially functioning drivers (that first tweeter sets a new standard for fugly!), and some salvageable guts from the crossovers. You seem to have a real nose for finding these relics, so I'm sure that with a little patience and perseverance, you'll find a way to put together a great speaker pair. Anyone who has followed your projects knows you tend to be a stickler for full original authenticity, but in this case - - no s/n paper labels, no matching pair of functional drivers, and barely any evidence for accurate production dating - - you just might want to consider an alternate approach similar to the excellent project by ar_pro that JKent has already mentioned. Just my $0.02 from the peanut gallery.

Good luck with this project. On a related topic, PM sent.  

Hey Robert,

Thanx for the kind words and pm responded too. I have seen the ar_pro thread and if needed I will consider it. The good news is Chris1this1 has given me reason to believe that both (yes both) of the tweets can be redone, entirely. Both of them have a bit of flimsiness to the rings but I have ideas for that also. Not sure of costs yet but I have a long way to go with this project before being upside down as it were. I have a resource on a second mid and have feelers out for cloth 12". In fact Bartertown listing of hotube suggests a cloth 12" and have started a conversation there. Will likely begin the process soon, and will likely start with cabs as I sort out the drivers and any xover mods that may need to be considered.

When I get home tonight hopefully I can continue to build this thread with the other pics I have of the guts.

As usual, this forum is one of my favorite places on the internet. The support and encouragement from members is always appreciated, and helpful.

Geoff

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sounds like you're well on your way to putting a solid plan together. The house renovations have come a long way since you last posted about this after the demolition. It's all looking good, are those maybe some AR-5's or 2ax's in the background? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Robert et al,

Good eyes and yes, 2ax on the bottom and 5s on top. The brown grille cloth is original with the units. The remodel gave me an opportunity to wire for six sets of speakers in the first floor space, those are two of the locations. If you recall possibly the pic of the big window wall, that will be where my 3s and these 3as will live in the end. The whole thing seems to be coming together as I dreamed. A long strange trip indeed.

Speaking of the 3as, I have a few more pics to share. As noted previously, Dad (or someone) had parted out a few items, which doesn't necessarily break my heart.

guts_1_1.thumb.JPG.9c0c5d6a7faa53630cb5c4e76a9241be.JPG

with some random fasteners left loose in the cabs.

guts_1.thumb.JPG.1478ffcdb9ed359354dbf0902719f398.JPG

and I am glad that all inductors appear to be in place and original. One pot is missing, but I do have some spares.

xover_1.thumb.JPG.d9e1a3ae631b4c8f0aaeac15b4145a3a.JPG

 

xover_2.thumb.JPG.c2b5e7f0f2aa39880859089d8575a15e.JPG

so at this point I need to regroup. I have been in touch with someone on AK who apparently has one cloth 12" woofer and the mate has been foamed? Not exactly sure where that will lead as the seller has been a bit dodgy answering some of my questions. There is no rush however, as usual. If anyone knows of a matched set of woofers for this project please let me know. I will also put a wanted to buy in the for sale/wanted forum.

I will proceed to strip everything but the coils out of the cabs and probably get started on the cab work.

Thanx again folks for the interest and input.

Geoff

Link to comment
Share on other sites

entropy, good word that describes this set very well! thanx for that Al.

And yes you are spot on, Citation II will be the amp I have envisioned as the driver for the sets on the window wall! The 2ax and 5 stack will be driven by a Marantz 2325 or 2270. Currently I have the 2270 set up for them. Don't want to bring the tubes into this room until all construction dust is behind me.

Beverly is not that far from Amherst and I will have some listening/comparison parties in the future, hoping you will be able to attend. By the way if I haven't mentioned my wife Diane works in Beverly at Axcelis.

Geoff

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Geoff!

Your house is looking fabulous! What a beautiful space!

The 3a's look to be a fun and rewarding project, right up my alley. Did you see the woofers posted in BT on AK I noted in your thread? AT least it's a possible start.

I'm sure you know the drill regarding the cabs, and I'm sure you'll bring them back to their former glory.

Glenn

Link to comment
Share on other sites

By the way stupidhead - further info on AR3a clothe surrounds. The serial number of one of my 3a's is 29739. The other number is close but not consecutive.  I believe I bought them in late winter 1969.  I can't really comment on the differences between clothe and foam. I have heard a pair of 3a's with foam surrounds but never long enough to make a critical comparison.  I have read opinions over the years that the clothe were superior. My woofers look like the pic attached I'm almost sure. I had them out for a crossover rebuild 3 years ago but my memory is a bit fuzzy sometimes. 

I am very interested in your project and look forward to updates. Best of luck!

der

3a_woofer.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I love projects like this. They can easily get out of hand cost wise trying to acquire the correct working drivers. Buying off the auction site can be problematic, you never know the true history of how the stuff was treated. I have a set of beautiful AR 11b cabinets I am currently sourcing drivers for. Have you tried to identify your mid range thru the AR3 restoration manual? Here are the mid range drivers I have collected for my project.

Midranges_zps3fcuoljw.jpg 

The two bottom units are from the auction site. Left one says 200010-1 on the back and the other has no determinable labels. The next two up are from a collector friend who ask how my project was going and offered these pulled from 10pi speakers. They are labeled and look identical to the lower left 200010-1 unit. The top two appeared on CL and are AR11b replacement units. The seller did not know what kind of speakers they were, thus a good deal for me. Notice how somebody had them set up for a front wired configuration. They all test good and have very similar ohm readings. Does anyone know what the DCR should be on these?  

One more thought about your AR3a's  Last year I restored a set of 3a's with serial numbers 3A 35708 and 3A 35705. They had #7 woofer inductors, but had Tonegen replacement woofers. I hand unwound 3mh coils to 2.85mh which I believe were the #9 coils. If yours have the #7 coils I bet they came originally with cloth woofers. Another clue is the presence of the nichrome resistance wire. Good luck on your restoration.   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Geoff's 3a's are very early specimens, probably first year of production (1967). They would have been originally equipped with cloth surround woofers, The foam surround woofer would require a change from the smaller #7 (1.88mh) to the #9 (2.85mh) inductor.

The intact mid in his photo is the earliest version of the 3a mid with no dot on the fiberglass under the metal screen. It is A.11 on page 29 of the 3a restoration guide. The DCR of this very early 3a mid is around 2.5 ohms (as were all iterations of the AR-3 mid). Later versions of the 3a type of mid are 3.2 to 3.5 ohms. Some of these very early 3a mids had crossed leads under the electrical tape due to differing voice coil polarity.

Roy

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/11/2017 at 8:07 AM, stupidhead said:

Beverly is not that far from Amherst and I will have some listening/comparison parties in the future, hoping you will be able to attend.

Apologies for the slight diversion, but thanks Geoff, you have a lovely home and a sweet collection of gear, I would love to attend the 'stupidhead fest' :-)

My 3a's are also earlier models, with cloth surrounds.  Serial #'s are 03323 and 03346.  I hope to get to them after I finish my 2ax's.  If the 3a's were easier to transport I'd offer to bring them along to your listening party.  Maybe the 2ax's could come along.

Good luck with the parts scrounging.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On ‎3‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 8:42 AM, GD70 said:

Hi Geoff!

Your house is looking fabulous! What a beautiful space!

The 3a's look to be a fun and rewarding project, right up my alley. Did you see the woofers posted in BT on AK I noted in your thread? AT least it's a possible start.

I'm sure you know the drill regarding the cabs, and I'm sure you'll bring them back to their former glory.

Glenn

Hey Glenn, thanx again. It is coming together nicely. Obviously taking longer than ideal but having the full kitchen etc. upstairs has made it easy to take our time.

I will likely reach out as the cab work unfolds for any guidance needed.

 

On ‎3‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 10:03 AM, der said:

By the way stupidhead - further info on AR3a clothe surrounds. The serial number of one of my 3a's is 29739. The other number is close but not consecutive.  I believe I bought them in late winter 1969.  I can't really comment on the differences between clothe and foam. I have heard a pair of 3a's with foam surrounds but never long enough to make a critical comparison.  I have read opinions over the years that the clothe were superior. My woofers look like the pic attached I'm almost sure. I had them out for a crossover rebuild 3 years ago but my memory is a bit fuzzy sometimes. 

I am very interested in your project and look forward to updates. Best of luck!

der

3a_woofer.jpg

 

thanx for the input. I too have not heard a comparison between cloth vs. foam 3as, but I have personal knowledge of 10" AR drivers having cloth vs. foam and I definitely prefer the cloth. there is likely a psychological factor to this as I embrace cloth surrounds in a nostalgic sort of way.

On ‎3‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 0:30 PM, larrybody said:

I love projects like this. They can easily get out of hand cost wise trying to acquire the correct working drivers. Buying off the auction site can be problematic, you never know the true history of how the stuff was treated. I have a set of beautiful AR 11b cabinets I am currently sourcing drivers for. Have you tried to identify your mid range thru the AR3 restoration manual? Here are the mid range drivers I have collected for my project.

Midranges_zps3fcuoljw.jpg 

The two bottom units are from the auction site. Left one says 200010-1 on the back and the other has no determinable labels. The next two up are from a collector friend who ask how my project was going and offered these pulled from 10pi speakers. They are labeled and look identical to the lower left 200010-1 unit. The top two appeared on CL and are AR11b replacement units. The seller did not know what kind of speakers they were, thus a good deal for me. Notice how somebody had them set up for a front wired configuration. They all test good and have very similar ohm readings. Does anyone know what the DCR should be on these?  

One more thought about your AR3a's  Last year I restored a set of 3a's with serial numbers 3A 35708 and 3A 35705. They had #7 woofer inductors, but had Tonegen replacement woofers. I hand unwound 3mh coils to 2.85mh which I believe were the #9 coils. If yours have the #7 coils I bet they came originally with cloth woofers. Another clue is the presence of the nichrome resistance wire. Good luck on your restoration.   

Roy's response clarifies the woofers from these cabs, I believe the AR part # is 4500-1. I do need one still, so if you see one please let me know.

20 hours ago, RoyC said:

Geoff's 3a's are very early specimens, probably first year of production (1967). They would have been originally equipped with cloth surround woofers, The foam surround woofer would require a change from the smaller #7 (1.88mh) to the #9 (2.85mh) inductor.

The intact mid in his photo is the earliest version of the 3a mid with no dot on the fiberglass under the metal screen. It is A.11 on page 29 of the 3a restoration guide. The DCR of this very early 3a mid is around 2.5 ohms (as were all iterations of the AR-3 mid). Later versions of the 3a type of mid are 3.2 to 3.5 ohms. Some of these very early 3a mids had crossed leads under the electrical tape due to differing voice coil polarity.

Roy

5 hours ago, alkermes said:

Apologies for the slight diversion, but thanks Geoff, you have a lovely home and a sweet collection of gear, I would love to attend the 'stupidhead fest' :-)

My 3a's are also earlier models, with cloth surrounds.  Serial #'s are 03323 and 03346.  I hope to get to them after I finish my 2ax's.  If the 3a's were easier to transport I'd offer to bring them along to your listening party.  Maybe the 2ax's could come along.

Good luck with the parts scrounging.

 

thanx Al, and you would be welcome to bring anything you would like for comparisons. I will certainly give plenty of notice for said event and very much look forward to it!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So I would like to pose a question for the group. As most know, I am generally oem minded. To take it a step further, when rehabbing a "set" of speakers that need drivers, finding a set of needed drivers from the same donor set is a coup. One further step is to find a donor oem set from the same era (date of production) as the cabinets being used for the project. This is daunting in most cases of 50+/- year old specimens. For me at least, it is not about end value and more to do with respecting the history of the manufacturer and engineers.

My question is am I missing something. Is my stance on this overlooking other approaches that might yield a "better" set of speakers? In the end it is all about the sound after all. If there might be a better sounding end result I am open minded enough to at least listen and consider, especially when components are hard to find if not unobtanium in a given project given my parameters.

In the case of this restoration, as Roy has indicated and all signs lead to them being '67ish vintage. If I am not able to find a matching mid 4500-1, then would a matched set of later AR 3a mids sound the same/better/worse as the originals would? I will qualify this by acknowledging that all of these vintage drivers have led different lives and will not necessarily perform as new. When considering this question, assume the drivers to all be in new condition, not exposed to the many variables of time.

Another example is the multiple 10" drivers used throughout the AR 2, 2a and 2ax run. Will a late model 2ax foam surround woofer sound as good as the same set with a different revision woofer?

Not sure if what I am trying to outline here is coming across as intended, thoughts?

Geoff

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As I was reading up until your last post there, I was thinking how cool it would be to fit an old AR3 cabinet with newer drivers.  Maybe even some from the later iterations of AR 3 ways meant to be decedents of the AR3.  Of course fitting them into the baffle would be the trick, but maybe it could work out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, DavidDru said:

I was thinking how cool it would be to fit an old AR3 cabinet with newer drivers.  Maybe even some from the later iterations of AR 3 ways meant to be decedents of the AR3.

you mean like this?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Finding a set with all original working parts, (maybe never opened up) is what I always am on the lookout for. Very hard to find. I would like to find a set of  3700-1 woofers for the set of AR3a's I mentioned previously. It would be worth having to change the inductor back. I always wonder why they were replaced in the first place. I know those were cloth surrounds, but how many time have you seen OEM woofers replaced with aftermarket units just because of surround rot. Then again on the other side of the equation how many times have vintage speakers been sold at value price for the same reason.

Recently Tom Tyson has been letting go of some AR3-3a woofers on the auction site. Last week he sold some cloth surround early woofers, but I let it slip by me. I wonder if he has others?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...