JKent Posted March 28, 2017 Report Share Posted March 28, 2017 19 minutes ago, JKent said: Are there commercial albums with the wall of sound or are these bootleg tapes? Are recordings available? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stupidhead Posted March 28, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2017 Kent, there are many boots, and now with Dick's Picks, Dave's Picks and Road Trips series of archive releases we have many to choose from. A special mic was employed as well. The whole thing was a logistical nightmare, but very cool. The best rock and roll band ever! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stupidhead Posted March 28, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2017 Need I say I can set you up with as much as you want to consume. I can transfer files onto a thumb drive and send it to you to pull off if you are game. Sharing music is one of my passions as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ra.ra Posted March 28, 2017 Report Share Posted March 28, 2017 Sorry about that, Kent, a little explanation was in order. Spector's famous "wall of sound" was a studio technique of layering and overdubbing and gobs of instrumentation that built a very full sound on recordings, even AM radio. The Grateful Dead's wall was a physical mountain of loudspeakers and electronics that was only used for live performances. It was concocted by Owlsey Stanley, a politician's son, who eventually got into a bit of trouble with his chemistry set. This youtube link is basically a Bob Weir testimonial for McIntosh, but there are a few great glimpses of the stacks of gear. Not mentioned in this interview, but Weir sometimes referred to the wall as "wretched excess". Also, a very good still image attached. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robthomp Posted March 29, 2017 Report Share Posted March 29, 2017 I read that Owsleys Wall of Sound had so many channels that there was one channel for each string on Phil Lesh's bass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ra.ra Posted March 29, 2017 Report Share Posted March 29, 2017 10 hours ago, Robthomp said: there was one channel for each string on Phil Lesh's bass Yes, I believe that is correct, and fortunately for the roadies, those were the days when Phil's bass guitars had only four-strings. For the past couple decades, I think, he has mostly been using custom six-string instruments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lakecat Posted March 29, 2017 Report Share Posted March 29, 2017 Interesting stuff!.....I was a union stagehand back in the late 70's-early 80's and set up for them two or three times...but anyways....the last time I set up in ..I think in 1984 at Blossum Music Center....we had started at our usual 8:00 in the morn.... and working with and joking with the roadies that traveled with sound and lighting companies. About 10:00 in the morning, we hear this roar of engines...and about 100 motorcycles pulled into the back where employee parking was. Lo and behold....it was the Hells' Angels.....and they came as self appointed security for the "Dead".....lol. Not realizing that the band was at a hotel and wouldn't be around till 6:00 or so.....they wanted to help set up! We were certainly not going to say no....so we made a quick decision to give them busy work. Nice guys...and yes....had their women with them in skimpy halters...tight jeans....:) So anyways....they got bored fast...and just sat around...in the way...drinking and partying. It was a LONG day!!!..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GD70 Posted March 30, 2017 Report Share Posted March 30, 2017 Hey Geoff! Just caught up on your progress. Looks like you're moving along more quickly than initially thought, and making nice strides! That cab is an interesting challenge. If the solvents are not successful, you may need to sand them. It's the route I've taken on every restoration I've done short of complete reveneers. If sanding is needed, go slow! As Roy mentioned, these are early, very similar to my first 3's you heard at the Frankenfest we first met at. Mine are from 1960, and have the same type plates for the mid and tweeter wires to solder to. Roy did a terrific job restoring the mids on my recent 3 project, and I would suggest sending yours to Roy as well. In fact, my 2nd set, from 1965, sound fantastic, much better than the 3's you heard in Clinton. It's obvious to me the earlier 3's mids need Roys magic touch. The tweeter you show with the lifted dome is easily repaired as long as it isn't reading open. I've had success regluing the domes with a bit of Aileen's tacky glue. I put a small piece of dense foam rubber on the dome with a little weight to hold the dome in position while the glue dries. Those woofers look fantastic! Youre doing a great job on these and look forward to more progress pics and discussion. Glenn And yeah, the Dead live were great! Saw them only 12 times! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stupidhead Posted March 31, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 21 hours ago, GD70 said: the Dead live were great! Saw them only 12 times! only 12? lol Hey Glenn et al, Yeah, making progress and just a crazy story as well. This thread and project have taken a number of turns that I certainly didn't anticipate. I am going to take an inventory after I open and evaluate all four cabinets. At this stage I am almost inclined to redo the 3s using any bits and pieces from all four. The 3a boxes are in pretty good shape and would ultimately like to rehab them as well. I have also recently happened upon a set of 2a which I have been looking for a decent set for years. Haven't actually gotten those yet, but they are available to me. When it rains it pours. I have a sickness, I have no ability to leave behind a set of these when I see them. Sick I tell you. My impression of the top face of the 3s is the veneer is quite thin, peeled away in a few spots from the plywood removal, it remains to be seen if I can get the left behind adhesive off without sanding and I wonder if peeling off the whole veneer and redoing that surface is the simplest most efficient approach. Thoughts? Don't forget about the nail holes! Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ligs Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 Hey Geoff, I am so glad to see those ancient AR3s are getting the well deserved love and attention from you. Long ago I got a pair of dealer's AR11s which had one side replaced with clear Acrylic to show the famed AR 12" woofers fluttering to the music signal. I later replaced the Acrylic panels with MDF and then veneered with 1/16" walnut. By combing the mids and tweeters of AR11's and the woofers from my old AR3as I got myself one of kind pair of AR11's or Franken-11 as you would have named them. I just have to share the story with you. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lakecat Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 11 hours ago, stupidhead said: only 12? lol Hey Glenn et al, Yeah, making progress and just a crazy story as well. This thread and project have taken a number of turns that I certainly didn't anticipate. I am going to take an inventory after I open and evaluate all four cabinets. At this stage I am almost inclined to redo the 3s using any bits and pieces from all four. The 3a boxes are in pretty good shape and would ultimately like to rehab them as well. I have also recently happened upon a set of 2a which I have been looking for a decent set for years. Haven't actually gotten those yet, but they are available to me. When it rains it pours. I have a sickness, I have no ability to leave behind a set of these when I see them. Sick I tell you. My impression of the top face of the 3s is the veneer is quite thin, peeled away in a few spots from the plywood removal, it remains to be seen if I can get the left behind adhesive off without sanding and I wonder if peeling off the whole veneer and redoing that surface is the simplest most efficient approach. Thoughts? Don't forget about the nail holes! Geoff I would do what your gut tells ya. Myself....I would probably apply new walnut veneer after removing the old with heat. You could spend untold hours trying to patch and still have a patched 3. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GD70 Posted April 1, 2017 Report Share Posted April 1, 2017 15 hours ago, lakecat said: I agree with lakecat. Strip and reveneer. I just did this on a pair of ADS L1590's with Rosewood for an AKer. The tops had chipped veneer along several edges, making it very difficult to splice in patches that wouldn't be obvious. It took a lot of time and work removing the veneer, but the end result was quite nice, and the owner was thrilled! Bartered for a pair of rare gorgeous ADS L980's with optional original stands. If you go this route Geoff, take your time selecting veneer. Finding something to closely match vintage veneer is challenging. Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stupidhead Posted April 1, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 1, 2017 22 hours ago, ligs said: Hey Geoff, I am so glad to see those ancient AR3s are getting the well deserved love and attention from you. Long ago I got a pair of dealer's AR11s which had one side replaced with clear Acrylic to show the famed AR 12" woofers fluttering to the music signal. I later replaced the Acrylic panels with MDF and then veneered with 1/16" walnut. By combing the mids and tweeters of AR11's and the woofers from my old AR3as I got myself one of kind pair of AR11's or Franken-11 as you would have named them. I just have to share the story with you. George Hey George, So glad you chimed in as well, this whole adventure would be entirely different without your involvement. Not sure yet where this will all go but in the end it will be worth any and all effort put into it. prosit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stupidhead Posted April 1, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 1, 2017 So, on the top surface I dug out the heat gun and a sturdy putty knife with a good edge on it. Took a little experimenting to figure out just how hot I needed to get the surface but I was able to get the lion's share of the adhesive off without much trouble. Close inspection of the veneer shows that this was imo a chosen for top piece of veneer. Some crazy grain pattern and overall very handsome panel. I too was leaning towards the removal/replace direction but am once again conflicted in my mind. I am pretty certain that a bit more scraping and very careful sanding and oiling would yield a nice surface. The nail holes are thankfully small (probably 6 or 8 penny nails used) and can probably be filled satisfactorily. I focused on one corner as an experiment and took a couple of not great pics of what about a half hour and a quick wipe with neutral RAF gave me. the cabinet maker did a real good job with these butt joints and there is virtually no separation anywhere. I am pretty settled on moving forward with trying to salvage this surface and of course will share my progress as this goes along. I have long held the belief that many of these old cabinets have a story to tell and this one's legacy is one I will enjoy telling. If unsatisfactory I can always peel it off and redo the whole top, but where am I going to find veneer this nice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GD70 Posted April 9, 2017 Report Share Posted April 9, 2017 Looks very promising Geoff. Any progress? Enquiring eyes want to know! Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stupidhead Posted April 14, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 14, 2017 Hi Glenn et al, We had a death in the family last week and sort of got me off track. A bit more progress and I am still torn on which direction to go. I did get a chance to remove most of the residual adhesive, softening with heat gun and carefully scraping. Here are the results. I have not had a chance to take some sandpaper to the thin remaining glue. Pretty sure I can get back to veneer but as you can see there are other flaws now more obvious. Also the veneer seems very thin, I thought these older 3s had a thicker veneer. Possibly these were sanded before the over veneer had been glued on? I still think this veneer above is beautiful and worthy of saving if possible, but the missing pieces and the nail holes and the residual glue all add up to replacing being the path of least resistance. I have not peeled the other cab's over veneer yet but I fully expect it to be basically the same adhesion approach and will probably have the same challenges. Picked up a set of 2a's yesterday that will be a whole different batch of issues with the finish, that's a story for later. Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GD70 Posted April 16, 2017 Report Share Posted April 16, 2017 Ah, yet another project waiting in the wings! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stupidhead Posted April 26, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 26, 2017 yeah, so many projects so little time. so I finally got a chance to do a bit of sanding, had a beautiful afternoon with great light so I pulled this outside. I don't know what I can do with the other one to avoid the peeling that we see on the bottom left quadrant and a couple spots where I believe the glue ripped the veneer like we see at about 7:30 below. I am still conflicted on this one, the grain on this face is just so nice I am still on the fence as to what to do here. Maybe this weekend I can peel the other one apart and see what that looks like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ligs Posted April 26, 2017 Report Share Posted April 26, 2017 Geoff, This is beautiful indeed. Have you tried walnut wood patch for the bare areas? https://www.lowes.com/pd/Elmer-s-6-oz-Probond-Wood-Filler-Walnut/50015684 Perhaps others with more wood refinishing experience can chime in? George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKent Posted April 26, 2017 Report Share Posted April 26, 2017 Geoff, I can see why you're torn. That IS a very interesting grain and the walnut veneer available today doesn't compare. But that's a LOT of patching. I use epoxy wood filler but I think filling those large areas with filler will look like crap. Glenn is very good at making jigsaw puzzle pieces to fit and you could try that if you have some pieces of old veneer lying around, but it seems like a daunting task. The problem of course is not only the number of chips and their weird shapes but also the irregular grain. Is there a place that sells veneers in your neck of the woods where you could go and hand select interesting pieces to re-do the tops? That may be the best bet. Hey--it's pretty amazing how much of those you WERE able to save. Good luck with those and keep us posted on your progress. Kent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stupidhead Posted April 27, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2017 12 hours ago, ligs said: Geoff, This is beautiful indeed. Have you tried walnut wood patch for the bare areas? https://www.lowes.com/pd/Elmer-s-6-oz-Probond-Wood-Filler-Walnut/50015684 Perhaps others with more wood refinishing experience can chime in? George George thanx. This panel almost has some knurl to it or something, even with the bare patches you see in the pictures, I see no need for any fillers and only veneer. I really like the little knot holes. There are 9 nail holes and a variety of similarly sized knot holes. An interesting panel and if I just simply plaster a piece of veneer on the whole thing the story is gone. The story is important. The bare spots were "ripped out" by the adhesion and ultimate peeling by me of that top piece of plywood. Finding a match donor veneer will be challenging. I think stripping the other cabinet and verifying similar condition is prudent for now and then approach as a pair. 10 hours ago, JKent said: Geoff, I can see why you're torn. That IS a very interesting grain and the walnut veneer available today doesn't compare. But that's a LOT of patching. I use epoxy wood filler but I think filling those large areas with filler will look like crap. Glenn is very good at making jigsaw puzzle pieces to fit and you could try that if you have some pieces of old veneer lying around, but it seems like a daunting task. The problem of course is not only the number of chips and their weird shapes but also the irregular grain. Is there a place that sells veneers in your neck of the woods where you could go and hand select interesting pieces to re-do the tops? That may be the best bet. Hey--it's pretty amazing how much of those you WERE able to save. Good luck with those and keep us posted on your progress. Kent Kent, I do and have gotten a few pieces of this thin style walnut veneer, but I am disappointed in the quality and type/appearance/grain pattern that I have found so far. The color isn't right either. I am toying with the idea of harvesting some veneer from a set of 4x I have. They happen to be the first set of ARs I attempted and I became too aggressive with sanding and exposed some mdf in the process. These two stories colliding seems somehow romantic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dxho Posted April 27, 2017 Report Share Posted April 27, 2017 13 minutes ago, stupidhead said: The bare spots were "ripped out" by the adhesion and ultimate peeling by me of that top piece of plywood. Any chance of getting those pieces of veneer off the plywood? Whatever shape they're in, they are a match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genek Posted April 27, 2017 Report Share Posted April 27, 2017 In cases where you have especially "interesting" grain, the most effective repair is usually a hard filler and some artwork with graining pens and brushes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stupidhead Posted April 27, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2017 10 hours ago, dxho said: Any chance of getting those pieces of veneer off the plywood? Whatever shape they're in, they are a match. Great point, and yes I looked at the plywood surface. All the pieces are there but the surgery to remove and then reattach just seems very intimidating. I put the piece away and just have been focused on other approaches to repair. Thanx for bringing this up and I will revisit this possible approach. Here is a pic of the plywood and as you can see it is the mirror image of the walnut veneer. If anyone has ideas on how to tackle this please chime in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKent Posted April 27, 2017 Report Share Posted April 27, 2017 10 hours ago, genek said: In cases where you have especially "interesting" grain, the most effective repair is usually a hard filler and some artwork with graining pens and brushes. I'll have to give that a try on my KLH radio restorations. I see 2 problems in Geoff's case though: his chips are rather large and will require a lot of touch-up work Mohawk recommends coating the finish with lacquer--perfect for KLH radios and "some" KLH speakers but not good for the ARs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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