Just blew an AR-3A Woofer

[taynos]

Long time reader, first time poster...

Picked up a pair of AR-3A's about 4 months ago, I had read alot about them here and on other forums. My fiancee and I came across a nicely restored  pair at Decibel, a vintage audio store in Chicago, she loved the walnut cabs and cream colored grill clothes, I liked the way looked and LOVED the way sounded. I listen to  95% vinyl- alot of Blue Note-ish Jazz (Blakey, Mobley, Morgan, Hubbard and lots of Blues; Buddy Guy, The Three Kings, Collins) as well as tons of other stuff, but that is my main jam.

I am using a Marantz 2230 as Pre Amp with an Adcom 5400 main amp. My TT is Realistic Lab 420. Cart is Denon 110.  

I had read countless posts that the Adcom 5400 was proper match for the power hungry AR-3a's. So I got one. And turned my Marantz (which was my main amp, into my pre amp, feeding the Adcom.)

Today I noticed the woofer on left speaker had blown. (See attached Video "Blown Left Speaker" also see "Good Right Speaker"

Trying to figure out what the heck happened so I removed the grills to see what was going on. And I noticed something very intense happening when I would turn my Pre-amp on (Marantz 2230) while my Adcom 5400 was already one (See video clip Turning on Pre Amp v1 and v2 and v3)

There is alot of low end pressure that is exhaled when turning on the pre, this force has not only seemingly blown the woofer, but pulled away the woofer from the glue that holds it in the frame. See Attached screen shots. 

When I turn the Pre Amp on FIRST (Marantz) , and then the Adcom I do not get the huge exhale of power that I believe blew the woofer.

I'm fairly certain the woofer blew when I had the volume up at decent level (nothing crazy probably around 11am on the Marantz) also the loudness feature was pressed in on the 2230, I like the added boost of bass the loudness gives, I don't use it at loud levels but at lower levels I do tend to use it, especially on the older blue notes that I like to give a little boost in the low end, and I am speculating that turning on the Pre amp while the Adcom was on blew the woofer. 

My questions are,

1. Is the Woofer completely blown or is it repairable. Again please listen to attached video references.

2. Is there anything I can do with my system besides turning on Amp First and then Pre Amp. This is quite frankly, too delicate a situation for me for a daily situation.

3. If woofer is blown, how difficult is it to install a new woofer (I see several used replacement woofers on ebay at the moment, shipped for around 100$)

Thanks in advance chiming in and other ideas and what is going on ...

Cheers,

T

 

Good Right Speaker.MOV

Blown Left Speaker.MOV

Turning on Pre-Amp v3.MOV

Turning on Pre-Amp v2.MOV

Turning on Pre-Amp v1.MOV

[samberger0357]

Sorry to hear about the speaker.

Others with more experience then me will chime in on your next steps for repair. But going forward, always turn your preamp on first, give it 30 seconds or so to settle, have the volume all the way down, then turn the amp on. Use the opposite order when shutting your system down. This is a basic rule of audio.

 

 

[VintageMan]

Always switch on the pre-amp first, then de main-amp.

Looks more that the glue that the surrounding holds came off.

A blown woofer, in my opinion, is a different thing.

[djcheung]

The surround looks to be in good condition.

It looks like the refoam wasn't done properly - not enough or the wrong type of glue.

Just glue the foam back and follow other expert opinions on the pre/power amp issues.

[taynos]

5 hours ago, samberger0357 said:

Quote

Sorry to hear about the speaker.

Others with more experience then me will chime in on your next steps for repair. But going forward, always turn your preamp on first, give it 30 seconds or so to settle, have the volume all the way down, then turn the amp on. Use the opposite order when shutting your system down. This is a basic rule of audio.

Thank you. Been using integrated amps up until now. I learned the hard way.

 

 

[DavidDru]

Yes, the glue job on the surround failed it appears.  Not that big of a deal.

Take it back to Decibel.  I am sure they won't be happy either if it is something they had done or did.  

You could take the Marantz in to have looked at if you want.

Yes, always turn the pre on first and off last.  Volume all the way down first.  Relays get tired.  They might need a good servicing/cleaning.

[taynos]

5 hours ago, samberger0357 said:

Sorry to hear about the speaker.

Others with more experience then me will chime in on your next steps for repair. But going forward, always turn your preamp on first, give it 30 seconds or so to settle, have the volume all the way down, then turn the amp on. Use the opposite order when shutting your system down. This is a basic rule of audio.

 

 

Thank you. Been using integrated amps up until now. I learned the hard way.

 

5 hours ago, VintageMan said:

Always switch on the pre-amp first, then de main-amp.

Looks more that the glue that the surrounding holds came off.

A blown woofer, in my opinion, is a different thing.

2 hours ago, djcheung said:

The surround looks to be in good condition.

It looks like the refoam wasn't done properly - not enough or the wrong type of glue.

Just glue the foam back and follow other expert opinions on the pre/power amp issues.

Appreciate the feedback. Great to know that I just need to re-glue it. This is obviously best case scenario. A little research pulled up Aleene's Original Tacky Glue as a proper glue which can be easily found here in the USA. Sound about right ?

[VintageMan]

Make sure that the woofer is correctly centered.

Maybe have an "expert" looking at it

[taynos]

3 minutes ago, DavidDru said:

Yes, the glue job on the surround failed it appears.  Not that big of a deal.

Take it back to Decibel.  I am sure they won't be happy either if it is something they had done or did.  

You could take the Marantz in to have looked at if you want.

Yes, always turn the pre on first and off last.  Volume all the way down first.  Relays get tired.  They might need a good servicing/cleaning.

 

Thanks. I actually don't believe Decibel did the re-foam. Pretty sure they purchased them off the previous owner who did restoration. Ironically, when I first got them one of the woofers went dead and I did take it back to Decibel, and it was a faulty wire job. So looks like the guy who restored them didn't know what he was gong. Granted, it did not help that I have not been allowing enough time for my pre to warm up before turning on the amp causing extraneous outward pressure on the speakers. 

The Marantz most likely does need a servicing as well. Purchased it used off an original owner and it had not been used in years. Has a blown lamp inside as well, need to just get her fixed up I suppose.

On the subject of relay, do turntables also have this problem? A secondary problem I had not mentioned in my original thread is that the Turntable Realistic Lab-420 exhibits a very loud popping sound when switched on (after both amps are on) The TT basically as an auto switch so every time I put on a record I have to lower volume, switch TT auto switch on, which cues record, and then raise volume again. 

[taynos]

8 minutes ago, VintageMan said:

Make sure that the woofer is correctly centered.

Maybe have an "expert" looking at it

Ha. Ok, deal.

[DavidDru]

Doesn't sound like any of the issues are insurmountable.  If needed, you could send the woofers to RoyC and he can fix em up for you.  You know they will be right with him.  Might be worth it now that you have exposed an apparent flaw with what was previously done.

Depending on your location you should be able to find a good tech that works on Vintage gear.  The folks at decibel can probably point you in the right direction. Old receivers often just need a few things checked and adjusted.  Don't let stories of "full re-caps etc scare you off.  Doubt it is needed.  A lot of times you can get most of that kind of stuff done for an hour or so of service.

The issue with the TT is an odd one.  turntables can be troublesome with grounding and or points of connection issues, but it is usually with hum and channel drops.  Try posting symptoms over at either Audio Karma in the TT section or at Vinyl Engine in the forum there.  Check all your cables too.

I use the GFA 5500 (x2) with my AR9's and used to use a lone 5500 with my 3's.  The 5400 should be a nice amp for those for sure

[michiganpat]

my 2230 have a little bit of a bump when turned on....I usually keep the volume low...turning it on first, then the amp will solve that problem.

 

and yes, I've only used Aileen's tacky for paper cone woofers...works great..

[ar_pro]

As the others have said, it's preamp on first and off last; this is to avoid the transient "thump" that you've experienced.

That said, there is another issue with the Adcom GFA-5400 that could pose a practical problem for you: it doesn't turn off right away. Adcom used to boast that their power supplies were so robust, that you could actually switch off the amplifier, and it would continue to play the source for several seconds. I recall our old Adcom 555II amplifiers being able to play for 10-15 seconds after power-down!

And so this now modifies the turn-on-turn-off instructions to: preamp on (wait a second, or so), power amp on; power amp off (wait 15 seconds), preamp off.

If it's just a single "pop"  when your turntable powers up, it's most likely a failing cap on the AC line in the TT power supply. If it's a series of "pops" as the arm moves, I'd be more concerned with an intermittent connection in the tonearm wiring.

As a general pointer, I'd suggest getting in the habit of reducing the volume whenever you change a record, too; nothing like a dropped stylus to move those woofer cones!

 

 

[owlsplace]

I use an Adcom ACE-515 power enhancer. Here is a little info: Adcom's ACE-515 AC Enhancer protects your system and significantly improves its performance capabilities three ways. First, it provides effective surge protection from large "spikes" that may be injected into the AC line by refrigerators, air conditioners, heating systems and even atmospheric disturbances. Second, the ACE-515 filters and processes AC power to provide a pure, noise free power source. Finally, it prevents audible "thumps" by sequentially switching your system components on or off (the ACE-515 provides a single, managed, on/off switch for your entire system). The ACE-515 combines both a switchable circuit breaker and internal MOVs (Metal Oxide Varistors) to provide convenient and effective protection against potentially damaging high voltage AC transients. The ACE-515 responds to these surges within 10 nanoseconds (10 billionths of a second!) and can safely dissipate over 10 Joules of transient energy. AC noise filtering also includes protection against both radio frequency and electromagnetic interferences (RFI and EMI.) The ACE-515's seven AC outlets (six switched, one unswitched) are grouped to allow central connection of up to four source components, one control center (preamp) and up to two power amplifiers. Sophisticated delay circuitry turns on the power amplifier(s) only after all other components have stabilized and turns off the source components only after the power amplifier(s) have had time to fully discharge power supplies.

Also. some amps can amplify DC. Make sure you don't have any dc offset issues. Maybe want to fuse those 3's -- fusing document is in the library section. I think Kent has some fuse holders available.

Roger

[taynos]

On 5/3/2016 at 8:53 AM, DavidDru said:

Doesn't sound like any of the issues are insurmountable.  If needed, you could send the woofers to RoyC and he can fix em up for you.  You know they will be right with him.  Might be worth it now that you have exposed an apparent flaw with what was previously done.

Depending on your location you should be able to find a good tech that works on Vintage gear.  The folks at decibel can probably point you in the right direction. Old receivers often just need a few things checked and adjusted.  Don't let stories of "full re-caps etc scare you off.  Doubt it is needed.  A lot of times you can get most of that kind of stuff done for an hour or so of service.

The issue with the TT is an odd one.  turntables can be troublesome with grounding and or points of connection issues, but it is usually with hum and channel drops.  Try posting symptoms over at either Audio Karma in the TT section or at Vinyl Engine in the forum there.  Check all your cables too.

I use the GFA 5500 (x2) with my AR9's and used to use a lone 5500 with my 3's.  The 5400 should be a nice amp for those for sure

 

Thanks for your feedback. I did post the TT popping question over at Vinyl Engine right after I got the AR-3a's as I didn't want to damage them , and it was a bit of mystery there as well. The AR-3a's are in my 2nd system and soon I will be using my Sony PSX-70 turntable which has an auto muting feature until the needle drops. Cannot wait to get combine all my best components. At that point at will get a tech to take a look at the Realistic popping issue.

The Adcom 5400 and AR-3a's are indeed a quite lovely match. I really like my Marantz 2230 and wanted to keep in the system, thankfully it was a model with the Pre Outs. So the Adcom 5400 was great fit. Believe it pushes out 200W at 4ohms.

On 5/3/2016 at 8:59 AM, michiganpat said:

my 2230 have a little bit of a bump when turned on....I usually keep the volume low...turning it on first, then the amp will solve that problem.

 

and yes, I've only used Aileen's tacky for paper cone woofers...works great..

 

Going to get some Aileen's tonight and give it a shot. Thanks !

On 5/3/2016 at 10:35 AM, ar_pro said:

As the others have said, it's preamp on first and off last; this is to avoid the transient "thump" that you've experienced.

That said, there is another issue with the Adcom GFA-5400 that could pose a practical problem for you: it doesn't turn off right away. Adcom used to boast that their power supplies were so robust, that you could actually switch off the amplifier, and it would continue to play the source for several seconds. I recall our old Adcom 555II amplifiers being able to play for 10-15 seconds after power-down!

And so this now modifies the turn-on-turn-off instructions to: preamp on (wait a second, or so), power amp on; power amp off (wait 15 seconds), preamp off.

If it's just a single "pop"  when your turntable powers up, it's most likely a failing cap on the AC line in the TT power supply. If it's a series of "pops" as the arm moves, I'd be more concerned with an intermittent connection in the tonearm wiring.

As a general pointer, I'd suggest getting in the habit of reducing the volume whenever you change a record, too; nothing like a dropped stylus to move those woofer cones!

 

 

Thank you for the guidance on Adcom power supply ... def going to be careful and give it some time before turning off Pre amp.

It's just a single pop, going to get her serviced soon. Also occurs one the record is finished and the auto mechanism returns the tone arm. As mentioned above, about to move in with my lady and combine all my best gear, which means my Sony PSX-70 with audio muting is going to get into the mix. Until then, I have gotten into the habit of lowering volume of Pre when turning the Realistic LAB 420 on.

[taynos]

On 5/3/2016 at 11:29 AM, owlsplace said:

I use an Adcom ACE-515 power enhancer. Here is a little info: Adcom's ACE-515 AC Enhancer protects your system and significantly improves its performance capabilities three ways. First, it provides effective surge protection from large "spikes" that may be injected into the AC line by refrigerators, air conditioners, heating systems and even atmospheric disturbances. Second, the ACE-515 filters and processes AC power to provide a pure, noise free power source. Finally, it prevents audible "thumps" by sequentially switching your system components on or off (the ACE-515 provides a single, managed, on/off switch for your entire system). The ACE-515 combines both a switchable circuit breaker and internal MOVs (Metal Oxide Varistors) to provide convenient and effective protection against potentially damaging high voltage AC transients. The ACE-515 responds to these surges within 10 nanoseconds (10 billionths of a second!) and can safely dissipate over 10 Joules of transient energy. AC noise filtering also includes protection against both radio frequency and electromagnetic interferences (RFI and EMI.) The ACE-515's seven AC outlets (six switched, one unswitched) are grouped to allow central connection of up to four source components, one control center (preamp) and up to two power amplifiers. Sophisticated delay circuitry turns on the power amplifier(s) only after all other components have stabilized and turns off the source components only after the power amplifier(s) have had time to fully discharge power supplies.

Also. some amps can amplify DC. Make sure you don't have any dc offset issues. Maybe want to fuse those 3's -- fusing document is in the library section. I think Kent has some fuse holders available.

Roger

 

This sounds like something I def need in my arsenal. As much as I love the separate amps, I have a feeling either I or my fiancee (during some late night spinning and partaking in my favorite adult beverages ) will turn something on in the wrong order. Thanks for this info !

[tysontom]

Those woofers in your system appear to have been very poorly re-foamed, and I don't see the Masonite ring beneath the outer edge of the surround, which would mean that the woofer is not properly centered.  Also, the surrounds were not properly glued, indicating that the job was sloppy.  Like every one here has said, turn the preamp first along with the turntable and any other ancillary piece equipment first; wait a couple of seconds and then turn on the power amp.  Always keep the preamp volume control completely turned down anytime you change modes, turn on or off any of this equipment.  When you are finished, turn the volume all the way down, then turn off the power amp first, followed by the other pieces of equipment 15-20 seconds later, to prevent "thumps" and other extraneous noises.

When you re-foam those woofers, you may need to locate some Masonite spacers (see image) to raise the outer rim of the surround above the frame.  You should also use shims in the voice coil to be sure that the woofer's voice coil is properly "centered."

[taynos]

On 5/10/2016 at 6:42 PM, tysontom said:

When you re-foam those woofers, you may need to locate some Masonite spacers (see image) to raise the outer rim of the surround above the frame.  You should also use shims in the voice coil to be sure that the woofer's voice coil is properly "centered."

Thanks for your input. It turns out both woofers are blown, I have taken them to an experienced  speaker repair guy in the Chicago area who also commented the re-foam job was very shoddy. He is reconing both woofers from the ground up. I mentioned the Masonite spacers to him, any idea where I can find the Masonite spacers? They are missing from both woofers.

I am wondering if the shoddy re-foam job was part of the reason I wasn't getting good bass response. I had to crank up the bass on the tone control on my preamp to get the low end I like. 

I also picked up an Adcom ACE-515 for 40$ on Clist that owlsplace mentioned which will delay the separates to power up in the proper order.

 

 

 

[JKent]

If the "experienced guy" in Chicago doesn't know about the Masonite and can't provide them, you may be better off sending them to the world's #1 speaker repair guru, Bill LeGall. Google Millersound.

Just my 2 cents.

Kent

[taynos]

10 minutes ago, JKent said:

If the "experienced guy" in Chicago doesn't know about the Masonite and can't provide them, you may be better off sending them to the world's #1 speaker repair guru, Bill LeGall. Google Millersound.

Just my 2 cents.

Kent

Does anyone here know where I can get the Masonite spacers? That would be helpful.

[michiganpat]

after I mistakenly took mine off, I made my own out of some 1/8" masonite, a jig I created, and a band saw....worked great, although I did need to slit it to cut the inside diameter and super glue it back together....a scroll saw would work too, and not need to be cut.......I attempted to make some on our rapid prototype machine at work, but it was tough to do because I had to do it in 4 sections and glue it together

[DavidDru]

Jkent is correct.  The guy in Chicago had better know what surrounds to use.  There are many out there but only a few sources will provide the correct ones.  With the masonite ring these are difficult to get aligned in terms of height, thus the shimming is easiest becuse shims help hold the cone up at the proper height to glue.

Here is a better photo of what mine on my nines look liked as I was doing the surrounds.

 

[ar_pro]

I've never seen the masonite rings for sale; touching base with Millersound, or RoyC couldn't hurt.

Out of curiosity, have you determined that the voice coil formers are undamaged?

[RoyC]

I'm not aware of any source for the masonite ring. If the voice coil is being replaced, the spider position can be adjusted somewhat to compensate for the missing ring. Hopefully the OP's speaker repair person will save the original cone. There is a re-coning kit available, but the new cone is much lighter and stiffer than the original...and it does not sound the same.

Interestingly, the first foam surround/ferrite magnet version of the AR 12 inch woofer (1970) did not have the masonite ring under the surround. I haven't seen many, but I have re-foamed enough of them to know this was the case. It can be identified by the foam damping ring on the cone, which was retained from its cloth surround predecessor. This "transitional" woofer was short-lived. By 1971, the woofer had the masonite ring and had lost the damping foam ring on the cone.

Roy

[RoyC]

I'm not aware of any source for the masonite ring. If the voice coil is being replaced, the spider position can be adjusted somewhat to compensate for the missing ring. Hopefully the OP's speaker repair person will save the original cone. There is a re-coning kit available, but the new cone is much lighter and stiffer than the original...and it does not sound the same.

Interestingly, the first foam surround/ferrite magnet version of the AR 12 inch woofer (1970) did not have the masonite ring under the surround. I haven't seen many, but I have re-foamed enough of them to know this was the case. It can be identified by the foam damping ring on the cone, which was retained from its cloth surround predecessor. This "transitional" woofer was short-lived. By 1971 the woofer had the masonite ring and had lost the damping foam ring on the cone.

Roy