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Compare AR 2ax both 1st and 2nd generation to AR 5


Phxjohn

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I have read many threads here and on other sites comparing the AR 5 and AR 3a. I read the thread discussing whether there should have been a 12" AR 2ax. 

I am curious to get opinions on how both the 1st and 2nd generation of the 2ax compares to the 5. I am familiar with the technical aspects of all 3. I am interested in comments about the sound of all 3. I purposely did not use the word 'versus'. All 3 are great speakers in absolute terms. If there is another thread that already compares the sounds of all 3, please list it.  

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The charts below from the 1975 brochure say they will all sound very similar on axis.  There is a practical range of setup and listening parameters within which all three systems can be made to sound nearly identical.  If your listening preferences and system arrangement begin to favor the greater power response of the domed mids or the  low bass of the 3a, you will hear an obvious difference that cannot be duplicated by the 2ax.  But my real world subjective answer is, the 2ax can sound practically indistinguishable from a 3a or 5 when playing recordings of musical performances captured  in a studio environment.

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Thank you Aadams for a very informative answer. I'm familiar with the graphs, thank you for putting them all together in one place. I have always wondered about the lower output level of the tweeter especially on the 2ax. Do the level controls allow the tweeter level on the 2ax to be brought up to the level of the midrange ?  

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Does anyone prefer either the first or second generation 2ax to the 5 ? As popular as the 2ax's still are due to current availability due to their popularity when in production, there must be some opinions out there. I'm leaving the 3a's out of the discussion because I have a pair of those.  Just for background, in the past, I have had AR 7's(new, my first AR's), 2's(given to me by a friend,) 6's(woofers reconed and essentially ruined by a speaker repair company as they no longer have any real bass) currently purchasing a pair of 6's with the original long throw woofers, just ordered pots and knobs, will get caps, already have grills with cloth and badges from Vintage AR. The experience that I am lacking is with the middle models the 2ax's and 5's. The 2's were much too dull sounding for me. I added(just placed on top) a metal horn midrange/tweeter with cap and L-pad to make them listenable. They were so dull that I don't think of them as even related to the 2ax although they are, of course.           

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43 minutes ago, Phxjohn said:

Do the level controls allow the tweeter level on the 2ax to be brought up to the level of the midrange ?  

Instead of turning the tweeter up perhaps turn the mid range down.

The graphs show the 2ax tweeter output and range is identical to the 3a and 5.  It is deceptive and not intuitive, but the wide and uniform dispersion of the "lower output" tweeter is responsible for keeping the 2ax power response curve horizontal from 5k to 12K.  

Unlike a 2ax, a properly working 5 can exactly mimic a 3a above 50hz when positioned identically, with the added bonus that its 10" woofer will not excite room modes and muddy up the midrange in small spaces. 

I have never heard an early 2ax.

 

 

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FWIW I found the 2ax dull also. Mine were restored, but everytime I put them in the system, they just let me down compared to other speakers I was using at the time, such as the KLH Model Six and Five, and of course 3's and 3a's. And they were an early pair with the cloth surrounds. I really wanted to like them, but they just never did it for me.

 

I've never heard the 5's, but I've never seen anybody say anything bad about them.

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34 minutes ago, samberger0357 said:

FWIW I found the 2ax dull also. Mine were restored, but everytime I put them in the system, they just let me down compared to other speakers I was using at the time, such as the KLH Model Six and Five, and of course 3's and 3a's. And they were an early pair with the cloth surrounds. I really wanted to like them, but they just never did it for me.

 

I've never heard the 5's, but I've never seen anybody say anything bad about them.

I am interested in the 1st generation with the cloth surrounds and the orange dome tweeters like you had or have. Discounting the 2's that I had decades ago, the 2ax 1st generation would be my first cloth surround AR woofers. My 3a's will be getting rebuilt 3/4" domes so I am curious to have the orange dome tweeters of the early 2ax. 

Do you think your 2ax orange domes were putting out a high enough volume ? How about the midrange/tweeter(the cone speaker) ?. Sometimes a depression in the midrange will make a speaker sound dull or remote even when the highs are all there. I appreciate the comments on the sound. I see quite a selection of early 2ax's out there but the cabinets tend to be beat.    

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Since they were restored by somebody who knew what they were doing I think they were in the best condition they could be. That said, there is a night and day difference between my current 3's that had the mids and tweets rebuilt and previous versions I've owned/heard. So it wouldn't surprise me that rebuilding the drivers on the 2ax would help improve them. But at the time I didn't feel that that highs were lacking. Just that the overall presentation seemed non musical. Wish I could be more articulate about my issues with them.

 

I wonder also if where 2ax's are relatively easy to find, but but 5's not so much has to do with not only the difference in production numbers, but that generally people hold onto one and tend to move on from the other.

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10 minutes ago, Phxjohn said:

Thank you both for your informative responses. 

I had several newer AX's that sounded okay but never matched up to the 3a of course and sold them. Then I ran across a pair of early Ax's with the alnico woofer. I was stunned in how good they sounded! I had a friend that heard them and wanted them...so sold them to him but it compared quite nicely to the 5. They would be great in a smaller room.

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I acquired my 2ax's new in 1975. They were the last of the Norwood models with all backwired drivers, which probably makes them sort of "3rd generation." Comparing them to my 3a's, which the 5 was designed to emulate in its mid and upper frequencies, the major difference is that the 2ax has a higher midrange output that requires dialing the mid level control back a bit, but has a narrower "sweet spot," probably because the sound in the 650-5000Hz range is coming out of cone drivers (the woofer and mid) rather than domes.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I am still sandbagging 2-pairs of 5s although I haven't fired either up in quite awhile. 

I haven't posted here in a long time either but saw a CL listing today that made me drop by.

One of the AR-5 resto threads on here was mine. I still have those with the original drivers. The other pair was later production with the original Sprague caps from 1974 which would have been the same as the ones I brought back from Germany in the mid-70s. These had the Hi-Vi put in. I don't think I ever got around to doing an A/B as the differences were obvious anyway.

I'm listening to AR-3t's. That would be with Teledyne drivers installed. 

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On 7/18/2021 at 2:43 PM, owlsplace said:

I'm listening to AR-3t's. That would be with Teledyne drivers installed

Hi, welcome back ... our projects are long term, but when you finish restoring your speakers, you have to let us know!
Excuse my question, but your statement: "I'm listening to AR-3t's" means that you have a pair of AR-3st or AR-3t?

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The AR-3t's is not anything AR produced. It is an AR-3a cabinet and crossover slightly modified with AR-58 Teledyne era drivers installed. This particular set of 3a's had been abused. Only one of the tweeters was original. The woofers had been reconed and the mids had been replaced with some 8-ohmn drivers of unknown origin. 

RoyC provided guidance on the crossover mod. 

I wanted the cabs to match my AR-5 vintage look. 

I still have the AR-58 cabs and crossovers although it is unlikely I will ever put them back into service. I don't have the time or space for those projects these days.

There are only a few of us who still enjoy these old dinosaurs anyway.

The AR-3a's that I see occasionally for sale on CL don't last long. They usually disappear quickly especially if they are offered at a low start price. The later models not so much. AR-5's are even rarer to see as production was only around 50,000 units I believe. They don't command a high price though. 

 

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On 7/28/2021 at 2:46 PM, owlsplace said:

AR-3a cabinet and crossover slightly modified with AR-58 Teledyne era drivers installed

Bravo owlsplace, there are also my tests with my Acoustic Research: the AR58s cabinets with AR10TT speakers.

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4 minutes ago, Giorgio AR said:

Bravo owlsplace, there are also my tests with my Acoustic Research: the AR58s cabinets with AR10TT speakers.

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Nice, I have seen a pair of AR-10's recently for sale. 

Drifting off-topic here but I have a spare set of mids and tweets so I could easily restore the 58's with some woofers or used the reconed woofers from the original AR-3a's.

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18 hours ago, ar_pro said:

Thumbs up for your "AR-3T", Roger. 

Could be the best of both worlds; the Classic AR-3a appearance, and the further-evolved AR-9 drivers.

I hear an AR-91, but I see an AR-3a. 

The psychology of the AR enthusiast...someone should write a book. ^_^

You should know... I think yours have the AR-58 crossover installed if I remember correctly!

Quite a legacy we inherited ...

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2 hours ago, owlsplace said:

I think yours have the AR-58 crossover installed

I have yet to finish the crossovers  that come from the AR92, I like to tone down the mid / high range that the original AR58S crossover does not allow.

You were right to save the original components.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I have extensive experience with classic AR speaker.   IMO the 5 sounds better than the 2a/ax.  Difference is in the midrange.  The 5 sounds more natural and very slightly clearer to my ears.  If I had to pin down an area of difference I would say the 2a/ax sounds slightly nasal in comparison.  Some prefer the 2ax, and contemporary reviews mentioned the very close sonic signatures of both speakers.  Some felt they were virtually indistinguishable.   My experience is that the 2ax and 5 can sound better in room than a 3a because deep bass response is better coupled to the room using the smaller speakers.   

I have a pr of AR92 speakers that sound different than my pair of AR5 speakers.   More forward, with better hf extension, but in my room bass response seems slightly less overall.  Maybe it is the placement of the woofer higher up in the cabinet, offering less interaction (and reinforcement) with the floor boundary ?

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Good morning all. If this is too far off topic please ignore. I bought a pair of AR 2ax speakers yesterday. The woofers and tweeters are different from from box to box. The serial numbers are ax 97263 and ax 131399. Would the difference in serial numbers account for the difference in woofers and tweeters? I have lots of photos. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

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