VSAT88 Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 I have a few random questions to ask of you guys but first I should say hello and thank you. I have long been reading on your site even before I got the AR-3's. Found it long ago when I was tooling around sucking up every bit of information I could find about random Vintage Hi Fi equipment. I found a mother load of information here. This site was helpful when I saved a pair of KLH 5's that someone painted white with house paint and they eventually made it to a local thrift store. 25.00 I think and away I went. I still think they were one of the better sets of speakers I have owned. I have been thru Norman 10's two sets of those the KLH 5's and now I am running rebuilt SDA-SRS 2's that have been completely re worked and I must say I loved them all. Anyway, the AR-3's are going no where. They are rough looking but sound pretty damn good considering all I have done is go in and put some very cheap NP lytics in and clean those rheostats as well as I could. The few questions I have can probably be answered quite easily. I only ask because I like to know what others have done in similar situations, more than one way to "skin a cat" so to speak or that I have read and cannot find the answers. If I ask questions that have been answered before and you can show me the path to that info. I would be much obliged. The first question I would pose is this. When the speaker is opened by taking out the woofer there is a thin material behind the before the insulation that reminds me of panty hose of course it has degraded and beginning to fall apart. What should I use as a replacement ? Second question. I had read somewhere that a switch could be used with a resistor instead of the rheostats. I cannot remember where but I thought I read that on this site. I guess that would be rigged in so one could have the "setting" middle way or flat or by using the switch all the way to "high" or "low" ? I had also read about using the Parts Express rheostats instead and I would like to look that over as well. Third. I am almost certain that I read that the mid range speaker can degrade over time on these speakers. When I tossed the new lyrics in I noticed on speaker has less sound coming from the mid than the other. Could this be the cause ? I am pretty sure I will have more to ask but I would think those are a lot to ask as is so I will sign off for now. I really do appreciate your ongoing help. Thanks, Jim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dxho Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 1) Something light like cheesecloth will work. 2) Others are more conversant in this question. In my projects so far, I've cleaned or repaired the original pot or replaced it with another repaired original. 3) Yes, the mid can degrade. Member RoyC has some success in reviving these. And welcome to CSP! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lARrybody Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 Welcome VSAT88 Dhxo is right about the cheesecloth. That's what I use. Please read the AR 3/3a restoration guide found here. It will answer your questions about the potentiometers and much much more. Yes they do degrade over time. It could be the pots, but more than likely the suspension and voice coil are the culprits. Roy can help you with restoring those. Again welcome and please post some pictures of your Three's. We like pictures Larry in IN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKent Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 47 minutes ago, larrybody said: Please read the AR 3/3a restoration guide found here. It will answer your questions about the potentiometers and much much more. and regarding the kimpac replacement, any thin cloth will probably work. Roy recommends crinoline. You want acoustic transparency but tight enough to keep fiberglass out of the woofer. Allisons used what appeared to be plain fiberglass window screen but that seems a tad coarse. Welcome to CSP! -Kent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genek Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 Or you could order yourself some Kimpak https://www.amazon.com/Versa-Pak-Packaging-Wrapping-Cushioning-Material/dp/B01HNLT4NW Probably enough here to last the rest of your life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VSAT88 Posted September 21, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 1 hour ago, larrybody said: Welcome VSAT88 Dhxo is right about the cheesecloth. That's what I use. Please read the AR 3/3a restoration guide found here. It will answer your questions about the potentiometers and much much more. Yes they do degrade over time. It could be the pots, but more than likely the suspension and voice coil are the culprits. Roy can help you with restoring those. Again welcome and please post some pictures of your Three's. We like pictures Larry in IN Is that this ? http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/library/acoustic_research/original_models_1954-1974/original_models_schematicss/restoring_the_ar-3a/restoring_the_ar-3a_full_pd.pdf because I saw that as AR 3/3a in the post and I see AR-3a in the .PDF. Just want to make sure I am not overlooking something that I should read. Thanks ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKent Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 That's it! Yes--it is the 3a restoration guide and you have the 3 but MUCH of the info there is applicable to your speakers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VSAT88 Posted September 21, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 "Again welcome and please post some pictures of your Three's. We like pictures" Larry in IN Here are a few pics. I hope I uploaded right. I had to cut the size down by 50% and I have never uploaded here before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VSAT88 Posted September 27, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 27, 2017 I wanted to come back and thank you all for responding to my cry for help, lol. I am sure you all know that finding parts and information for speakers this age can be a daunting task. I think I am one of the lucky ones as it seems that I always seem to find someone who is willing to help. I wanted to throw another one out at you guys just to see what you think. I would like to keep my stock pots and I have read that they were silver plated. I think mine would work very well if they were re plated. Has anyone had this done to yours ? Has anyone attempted doing this at home ? I thought about this as I used to work in jewelry stores and we did some plating from time to time. Thanks, Jim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aadams Posted September 27, 2017 Report Share Posted September 27, 2017 The refurbished original pots of my AR3as are still adequate after 5 years but the next time I have to open the cabinets for bad pots they will be replaced with LPADs. Adams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKent Posted September 27, 2017 Report Share Posted September 27, 2017 Jim I don't know about silver plating. If you have a "connection" with the jewelry store and can have it done cheaply it might be worth a try. Otherwise just clean them up as has been described elsewhere, use some dielectric grease and hope for the best. That is, if you want to keep your 3s totally authentic. The AR-3 has been selling for ridiculously high prices lately. OTOH, your cabinet looks "challenging" and it may be difficult to restore these to 100% original condition. If you plan to fix them up and keep them for your own listening enjoyment, I agree with Adams (and MANY other members) that L-pads are the way to go. You can buy them for under $5 each from parts express, madisound or erse. The terminals aren't marked the same as the pots but we can help with that. L-pads should outlast even cleaned-up pots. See Roy's instructions here: LOVE the avatar, Inspector! -Kent PS: One other thought: When the speakers are all sealed up (be sure to use gasket from partsexpress or some "duct seal" from a hardware store to seal the woofer to the baffle), do the 3-finger test to push the woofer in and be sure it returns slowly. If it comes out quickly there is an air leak--most likely the cloth surround needs to be re-doped. ONLY use Roy's butyl goo (also available from ebay seller Vintage_AR). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GD70 Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 Hi VSAT! You have a nice set of 3's there! You've been given great advice. Roy C. does great work restoring the mids as almost all are compromised by now. The original soft dome suspension material is by now pretty much rock hard, not allowing the dome to move properly. Roy removes it, re-suspends the dome, and replaces the aluminum wires with copper. He did mine and the improvement was astonishing! He told me mine were probably as close to the original output as you could get! Your woofers look very good. Roy also told me the surrounds rarely need resealing. What are your plans with the cabs? Do they both show moisture damage or just the one? That can be repaired, but you'll need to be brave. To pull that joint back together, you'll need to remove a good amount of the expanded particle board to make room so when glued and clamped, you can pull the joint tight. You will probably need to use a hand saw and very carefully run it back and forth to cut away the swelled and soft material. Once you feel you've removed enough, do a test and put some pieces of protective wood on the cabs and tighten the clamps to see if the corners can be pulled tightly together again. If so, great, if not, remove more bad particle board until you can. I use ZPoxy for these type repairs because it is very thin and soaks into the particle board making it far stronger than original. When you apply the epoxy, let it soak in for 15-20 minutes before clamping. Keep paper towels handy with some alcohol so if any epoxy squeezes out from clamping, you can wipe it away immediately. You want the veneer to be able to absorb oil later when refinishing. These are great speakers well worth restoring both sonically and physically. Have fun and keep us posted on your progress. Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKent Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 On 10/1/2017 at 8:25 PM, GD70 said: To pull that joint back together, you'll need to remove a good amount of the expanded particle board to make room so when glued and clamped, you can pull the joint tight. You will probably need to use a hand saw and very carefully run it back and forth to cut away the swelled and soft material. Once you feel you've removed enough, do a test and put some pieces of protective wood on the cabs and tighten the clamps to see if the corners can be pulled tightly together again. If so, great, if not, remove more bad particle board until you can. I use ZPoxy for these type repairs because it is very thin and soaks into the particle board making it far stronger than original. When you apply the epoxy, let it soak in for 15-20 minutes before clamping. Keep paper towels handy with some alcohol so if any epoxy squeezes out from clamping, you can wipe it away immediately. You want the veneer to be able to absorb oil later when refinishing. Jim, Glenn is the expert on this. I wish I had known and followed his advice when I repaired some water-damaged speakers. Maybe he'll post a link to some of his amazing veneer patches. Roy and I were discussing this yesterday. The patches are invisible! And yes--these ARE great speakers, well worth restoring! -Kent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GD70 Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 Thanks Kent! I'll post some pics in the next day or so. Hopefully it will give a bit of confidence to VSAT to take the plunge! Nothing more satisfying than repairing something yourself and being able to brag to your wife! Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VSAT88 Posted October 2, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 Lol, she is happy when I am happy and vice versa. I do want to restore the speakers in time and I will however I am more interested in getting them up to snuff sound wise than anything else. I kinda like the idea of the way they look as opposed to the way they sound. One could look at them now and say no way that sound is coming from those speakers ! The mids I am sure need doing. I suppose you PM Roy about this ? Thanks guys, I love to learn and I will listen too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VSAT88 Posted October 2, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 Oh I meant to say that I need take the time to check both. I think it is just the one that is so bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GD70 Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 8 hours ago, VSAT88 said: Oh I meant to say that I need take the time to check both. I think it is just the one that is so bad. You should have both mids done so they are equal, silly to do just one as then the restored mid will have much more output than the unrestored mid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VSAT88 Posted October 2, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 28 minutes ago, GD70 said: You should have both mids done so they are equal, silly to do just one as then the restored mid will have much more output than the unrestored mid. Thanks but I was referring to the water damage on the bottom of one of the speakers. As in I think one of the speakers bottom was water damaged not both. I agree with you that both mids need be done though. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GD70 Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 On 10/2/2017 at 8:41 AM, VSAT88 said: Thanks but I was referring to the water damage on the bottom of one of the speakers. As in I think one of the speakers bottom was water damaged not both. I agree with you that both mids need be done though. Thanks. Ah, gotcha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VSAT88 Posted January 16, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2018 Hey guys, I found some 15 ohm rheostats here in my shop. These should work just fine if I enclose the back side right ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GD70 Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 You can put some kind of smallish box over the pots with some cutouts at the edges for the wires, to keep the fiberglass fiber out of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VSAT88 Posted January 17, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 39 minutes ago, GD70 said: You can put some kind of smallish box over the pots with some cutouts at the edges for the wires, to keep the fiberglass fiber out of them. Cool. I thought that would work. I did not want to use the PE parts / pots for some reason. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GD70 Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 Sorry for the delay, here's an example of a corner veneer repair. I hadn't done the final edge sanding yet, but you get the idea. Cheers, Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VSAT88 Posted February 8, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2018 Sorry it took me so long to respond Glenn. I guess if I knew if they were walnut oak or whatever wood I could do just that. I just know nearly nothing about wood. I cannot tell birch from walnut or whatever. I could do some research and find out though. Then if I may ask where should I source the new veneer ? Do you have a good place to recommend ? I will be perfectly honest, I do not care too much what they look like I want them up to snuff sound wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKent Posted February 8, 2018 Report Share Posted February 8, 2018 On 10/1/2017 at 9:16 PM, VSAT88 said: I kinda like the idea of the way they look as opposed to the way they sound. One could look at them now and say no way that sound is coming from those speakers ! So... the rat rods of hi fi 3 hours ago, VSAT88 said: I cannot tell birch from walnut or whatever. They are probably walnut. If you're not up to the task of piecing in new veneer you can use epoxy. btw, new veneer won't match so Glenn and other perfectionists use bits of old veneer harvested from old donor cabinets. To fill chips and such you could either use the epoxy Glenn recommended for the water damage repair, tinted with Mixol #22 or use Mohawk Walnut epoxy stick. If you use Mixol-tinted epoxy you'll have to make little dams of masking tape to hold the liquid epoxy until it cures. There is a description of the process, with pictures, in my KLH Model Eight restoration guide, attached to the first post here: http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?/topic/6387-restoring-the-klh-model-eight/ Download Rev 5.pdf and see pages 8-9. To use the stick epoxy just slice off a piece, knead it with your fingers until thoroughly mixed, and press it into place. It cures pretty quickly. Whether liquid or stick, wait until it is fully cured (like 24 hours) and file/sand it to shape. It is very important that you repair the open seams as Glenn described because the cabinet must be air tight. Here's Mixol: https://www.amazon.com/Mixol-Universal-Tints-Oxide-Tobacco/dp/B0036B4OMU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1518063368&sr=8-1&keywords=mixol+%2322 Here's the Mohawk stick: https://www.amazon.com/Mohawk-Finishing-Products-Epoxy-Walnut/dp/B015BYDIY4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1518063424&sr=8-1&keywords=mohawk%2Bepoxy%2Bwalnut&th=1 -Kent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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