“ Listening to AR speakers, the way they were meant to be listened to”.

[iso]

Regardless of the inner/outer speed issue as another member brought up, the actual fact is that many folk’s playback turntables are not set-up probably or they are using lesser quality styli and lesser tone arms so they may sound distorted towards the end of a record.

Adjusting tonearm geometry is propably most vital issue for good record reproduction. If you look how much 1 mm difference in cartridge overhang does increase maximum distortion of common 9" SME 3009 S2 Improved, you can understand how vital this issue is. http://www.vinylengine.com/overhang_shift_calculator.php?el=231.2&oh=15.86&oa=22.6&ty=h&n_oh=14.86&submit=calculate I hope that figures will reproduced via link provided.

Bad thing is that many vintage tonearms do not have ability to adjust overhang. My SME used original SME headshell with round cartridge mounting holes, so I was unable to adjust overhang with original hardware. When using Stanton 881S I measured that overhang was about 3 mm off the correct spec. If 1 mm makes difference, this was disaster. SME manual suggested that overhang should be compensated by adjusting bedplate to move arm further or closes to spindle. This improved reproduction, but destroyed arm geometry as overhang was only correct spec after adjustment. Pivot to spidle and efective lenght of arm were incorrect after overhang compensation. Headshell with long cartridge mounting slots is far better alternative.

None of my AR-XB:s do have headshell with overhang compansation capability and adjusting pivot to spindle distance to compensate incorrect overhang is major modification. It is clear why certain cartridges do perform well in such turntables and some do not... It is a bit funny how industry has been able to agree quite well that cartridge mounting bolt distance is 1/2"... but why there is no agreement about needele position reative to mounting bolts????

samberger... welcome to this frienly forum and Happy New Year to you too...

Best Regards

Kimmo

[samberger0357]

Thanks Kimmo. Nice to be here.

While I can appreciate a well set up turntable, having had several high end tables over the last 15 years, I finally came to the conclusion a while back that for me, a simple table, preferably idler, with minimal adjustments provides the most satisfying results. I believe that companies like AR, Dual, Miracord, Garrard knew what they were doing when designing some of their simplest tables. I no longer have the desire to continue to try to zero in to what somebody else says is what I should be hearing when I listen to a certain record. I listen to, and own, a lot of older records, and those records sound great on my tables, with old carts(I have a particular endearment to the Stanton 500/Pickering V15 family, and the various styli that can be used with them) that don't require much in the way of endless adjustments. They simply produce beautiful, room filling music that always has me reaching for more. And they look great too.

But I don't begrudge the enjoyment that others get from high end, high tech rigs. Whatever gets you to the goal of enjoying the music is ok with me.

[samberger0357]

Some pics of my space and some records as a way of introducing myself. Messy, but in a good way. That chair between the 3's is only temporary while we have a Xmas tree. It will be gone soon. A few cd's are seen as well, but the majority of them are kept in the garage. Too many for the house.

Those white boxes stacked in the corner are my 78's. About 400.

[samberger0357]

One more. CD's that are in the house(mostly classical and jazz, plus some rare stuff), and books. There are a lot of those scattered about. The house is only about 1400 sq feet, so room is at a premium.

[dxho]

Wow!

[stan461]

samberger0357,

Welcome!

A sunny, comfy room filled with music.

I know, I have one too.

It doesn't get much better.

I have a Dual 1019 that came with a cheap Grado cart.

Any suggestions?

BTW - a Healthy and Happy New Year to all of us.

[JKent]

I have a Dual 1019 that came with a cheap Grado cart.

Any suggestions?

Yes.

Enjoy!

Even cheap Grados are well-respected. I had planned to put one in my AR TT when I finish the restpration but that combination causes hum. I think a Grado in a Dual should work well.

And Happy New Year to you too!

Kent

[samberger0357]

samberger0357,

Welcome!

A sunny, comfy room filled with music.

I know, I have one too.

It doesn't get much better.

I have a Dual 1019 that came with a cheap Grado cart.

Any suggestions?

BTW - a Healthy and Happy New Year to all of us.

You're right. It doesn't. Excellent for one's sanity.

What is the cart you own? Easy to upgrade the stylus on many of the less expensive Grado carts to bring it to a much higher level.

[stan461]

Grado MT+

[samberger0357]

Does it have either red or silver dots anywhere on the stylus plate(that will help to distinguish the specific version)? Like this:

[JKent]

Stan,

If you google Grado MT+ you'll find various discussion threads. Looks like it's a stereo cart that is also appropriate for mono recordings. A stylus upgrade may make sense. After you do a little reading you may want to phone Grado in Brooklyn. It's a family-owned company and I'm sure they can advise you regarding that cartridge.

Another suggestion: Try googling "best budget cartridge." You'll find a few lists of cartridges from under $100 to $500 (if you're planning to spend over $500 ask someone else ). Those lists will have a few Grado, Shure, AudioTechnica, Ortofon and other familiar brands and you can select what seems to suit your needs. I'll admit I'm not familiar with the Grado MT+ so I don't know if it's the best choice for your Dual.

-Kent

[Sonnar]

I 've read with real interest this discussion because I' m a vinyl fan , and I have a lot of LP's from early sixties and seventies. I use an old Thorens TD 125 with a Grace G-707 arm and a Grado Signature Black, and I' m still happy with it, but recently I bought for 100 euros ( 120 $ ? ) a Rotel RP900 , a belt-drive rigid turntable with a very beautiful S-arm, probably an OEM Jelco as-50. So i have to decide for a pick-up , and for 39 euros I bought a very cheap Audio Technica AT 95II . For the money, it' s an excellent pick-up, and its fast and clean bass response it's well matched with AR 3 and 3a . Now I' m very interested in a Sanyo TP-1000 on sale here in Rome, a late seventies direct drive classic japanese turntable just like Technics SL 1200, but the Sanyo has an Acos Lustre GST-1 arm , and I' ve ever had a weakness for shiny , precision made japanese arms from the seventies.

[DavidDru]

Much like this forum, I have enjoyed the forum at vinylengine. I got a lot of help when restoring a coule Dual TT's and there is considerable experience over there pertaining to cartridges and styli.

[samberger0357]

The Grado is nice cart. The best bang for the buck upgrade to it would be a 8MZ stylus which sells for $150. Terrific stylus, will place that cart where it will compete with any cart in the $500-$750 bracket, imo. And the 1019/Grado mix is a good one.

[iso]

Even cheap Grados are well-respected. I had planned to put one in my AR TT when I finish the restpration but that combination causes hum.

Kent

As AR headshell is made of plastic... cartridge body should be grounded via left or right channel earth side coil terminal, as there is no earth path via headshell. There is sometimes strap between one negative terminal of coil and metallic body of cart. This connection usually creates earth loop hum in headshell made of metal and should be removed when such arm is used.

I am not too familiar how Grados are made and wired... but it might be benefical to check cartidge body grounding if there is hum issue. It is otherwise difficult to understand why one brand of cartridge will create hum in one brand of TT.

Best Regards

Kimmo

[JKent]

Thanks Kimmo

My understanding is that the AR motor causes hum with Grados. When I read about it somewhere I emailed Grado to ask if that were the case and received an answer in less than 24 hours saying a Grado will hum with the AR. Fast and honest! Gotta respect that. If I ever get around to finishing the AR TT I may take my old Shure V-15 V out of my Harman Kardon T-60 and use that, and put a Grado in the HK.

-Kent

[der]

I get no hum on my AR XA fitted with a Jelco tonearm and a Grado ZF2 8mz combo. My stock XA with the stock arm does hum slightly with the same cartridge. I have no clue as to why that is. The hum with the stock table is not objectionable to me because I don't listen at that high of levels. (or, I'm simply too old to hear it from my listening position)

der

[iso]

If AC-motor and cartridge are not properly shielded there will be electro-magnetic interference, which you will hear as hum. It seems that Grados are not too well shielded cartridges and original AR TT motor is also copromised by electro-magnetic shielding. So there is not too much to do like Kent suggested.

More modern Jelco arm is most likely wired with more up the date standard re. hum than original AR TT. Jelco headshell is propably made from aluminium, which will offer only limited protection against hum, but will provide earth path for cartridge shielding if needed. But this should not do big difference, unless earth path for cartridge shield is needed... maybe all Grados are not created equal?

Best Regards

Kimmo

[der]

The Jelco arm recently was rewired. I think all Grado cartridges are the same from a shielding perspective. The only other difference between the decks is that the modified one has an automotive high gloss finish to the top plate with a couple of coats of clear. I suspect that there may indeed be some low level hum with this one as well when the stylus is closer to the motor but I cannot hear it from where I listen at the levels I listen.

So, from my perspective, it doesn't exist.

der

[ra.ra]

This comment was made very recently by an AR TT expert on another forum, and may shed some light on the compatibility issues.

"The 3W Hurst motor has 4 times the electromagnetic field that the 1.5 W Haydon motor has. That Hurst motor will make a Grado hum. For some unknown reason, I get zero hum from a haydon motor/grado cart on some tables (XA,XB) while on others I get a small amount."

[Sonnar]

der - what kind of Jelco arm do You use on Your AR XA? My Rotel RP900 come in with this beautiful, well sounding arm and some says it' s an OEM Jelco sa-50

[der]

I think it is a 370. Not completely sure.

der

[Sonnar]

Thank You der, excellent work. Adriano

[stan461]

I checked the cart once more.

It's a Grado MT+ with no dots, brown shell, just like in the picture in post #35, except with gold lettering.

Googled the MT+.

No one had anything bad to say about it.

I think a call or email to Grado will be my next move.

Once again the members here have come to the rescue - Thank you.

[der]

I checked the cart once more.

It's a Grado MT+ with no dots, brown shell, just like in the picture in post #35, except with gold lettering.

Googled the MT+.

No one had anything bad to say about it.

I think a call or email to Grado will be my next move.

Once again the members here have come to the rescue - Thank you.

Put an 8 mz stylus in it. (if you're sure the coils are OK)

der