Spensar Posted July 15, 2016 Report Share Posted July 15, 2016 New to the forum, but have lurked and visited the classic speaker library - great site. I have a question on AR grill badging. It seems that a lot of grill badging identifies the model number, but others just have the AR Inc. badge. I have seen pictures of 2AX's with just an AR badge and wondered if the 3s were ever sold with just the AR badge or if the ones I have seen have just lost the "3" badge on them. From what I see the 3as and onwards all have a badge with the number. Getting back into audio with the kids moved out, but only going vintage. In the late 70s 80s I had a pair of Advance A IIs, then got Chartwell LS3/5as and had them until a few years ago and am missing them. There are some ARs around that I am looking to check out now as I just have some left over modern speakers holding down the fort. I recently got a vintage Heathkit recevier and a couple of Dual TTs so need to match them up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dxho Posted July 15, 2016 Report Share Posted July 15, 2016 Welcome! I know squawdoosh about badging, but I know a little about early AR speakers. My opinion: good choice! My favorite so far is the AR3a. It was such a revelation (after 20 years of the AR2 and derivatives) that I went back through my music library just to hear what I'd been missing (mostly that lowest octave, more or less). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spensar Posted July 15, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2016 Can't see these until the weekend and only have this picture for info but trying to figure out what model these may be from the picture. Only grill badge is AR Inc. Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dxho Posted July 15, 2016 Report Share Posted July 15, 2016 Some of the regulars might have a better idea. The grilles on these betray nothing identifiable to me. Maybe you could get a shot of the labels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lARrybody Posted July 15, 2016 Report Share Posted July 15, 2016 These are defiantly not 3 or 3a speakers, wrong cabinet face. If the hardwood floor strips are 2-2/14 in wide I would say these are 4x speakers. If the flooring is wider they could be 2ax or 5 speakers. Hard to say because the tapering perspective of the photograph. There are folks here way more knowledgeable about this than myself. I am betting on 4x's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stupidhead Posted July 15, 2016 Report Share Posted July 15, 2016 Hard to say from this perspective but I think Larry is on the right track. Whatever they are, they are certainly worth further investigation/negotiation. Definitely not 3's or 3a's for sure, but vintage AR specimens that appear to be in decent shape. What is the story on them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spensar Posted July 15, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2016 The story for now is that they are at a sale starting tomorrow, but getting in line to be in the first tranche will take a good amount of time - they were 3s it is a no brainer of course. Thanks for ruling that out. I was trying to guage the height from the box beside it that looks to be 14"-15" tall. AR2s are 24" and 4s 19". From picture perspective it's hard to tell but 19" looked to small. What I am also hoping is that some of the hardware associated with them is lurking around - 4 speakers....quad stuff :-) I guess it will be an early morning. I will report back on what they actually were. The condition does look very nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyC Posted July 15, 2016 Report Share Posted July 15, 2016 I agree with Larry as well. Even if the cabinets are the larger AR-2/2a/2ax/5 size, they are not likely to be AR-5's unless the unique "AR-5" badge had been replaced on all of the speakers with the type used on earlier models (ie AR-1, AR-2/2a, and AR-3). Roy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKent Posted July 15, 2016 Report Share Posted July 15, 2016 Welcome Spensar Pretty sure those are 4x's. There was no number on the grille, just the smaller "AR INC" badge, about 1" aquare. The AR-4x was the bottom of the line, entry-level speaker, but a truly excellent little speaker. I bought mine new in 1969 for $88/pair and still used them until recently (replaced the caps and pots with help from forum members). Here's a pic. -Kent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spensar Posted July 15, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2016 Thanks to everyone for the 4x assessment, exactly what I was hoping to find out. Jkent, the picture is appreciated and it sure looks like a match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briodo Posted July 15, 2016 Report Share Posted July 15, 2016 The ones you found appear to be in very good shape from the front. My personal experience is the wood cabinet rework tends to be the most challenging and rewarding part of refurbishment. I've found AR3a's that were in excellent condition needing little more than Formby's furniture refinisher to bring them back to where they achieved the Wife Acceptance Factor (WAF). Of course surround replacement and replacing the caps were involved, but surrounds and caps are easier to do than rework on abused cabinets. The other thing to consider is amplifier power. You mention the Heathkit amp, which many were excellent designs at their time. The 4x runs very well with 30 to 40 watts per channel. The AR3a needs a more powerful amplifier to bring out the true personality of the design. That 12" woofer loves current, which some lower wattage amps struggle with. No matter what, you're going to get hooked resulting in persistent scanning of Craigslist to find the latest items for sale. Good luck and enjoy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ra.ra Posted July 16, 2016 Report Share Posted July 16, 2016 Yes, welcome to the CSP forum, Spensar. I hope you come home with that quartet of 4x's tomorrow (or could they be 4's?). The AR-4 has a small square badge (15/16") with black "AR Inc." screen printing. This same badge was used on the early 4x's, but was later replaced with a small square badge (7/8") with an incised "AR" in red-brown lettering. This later incised style was subsequently used in the following models (and maybe others?) in various rectangular formats: 2x, 2ax, 2xa, 3a, 3a Improved, 4xa, 5, 6, 7, MST, LST and LST-2. I believe the much-maligned AR-8 never earned the incised badge, and I am not sure if this version ever showed up on any AR turntables. See below for two versions of small square badge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKent Posted July 16, 2016 Report Share Posted July 16, 2016 ra.ra, Thanks for those pics. I never realized the engraved ones were smaller. My AR TT has an engraved logo with black lettering--I'll have to measure it. briodo, I agree that inefficient acoustic suspension speakers like a lot of power but if I remember correctly, my AR=4x's sounded pretty darn good back in the day when I was using a 17 wpc dynakit tube amp (ST-35). That was a sweet little amp. But again, more power can't hurt. -Kent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ra.ra Posted July 16, 2016 Report Share Posted July 16, 2016 Kent, you are correct about the TT badge, shown here in upper right of first pic still attached to wood plinth - - - it is same size and similar appearance to black 4x badge but with incised lettering - - a nice little detail. Also interesting to note that some badges are attached to steel backer plate/screw, and others are simply all brass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lARrybody Posted July 16, 2016 Report Share Posted July 16, 2016 I have been told I am smarter than I look. Had to look up the definition for incised. Pretty much what I thought, more or less engraved. Learned the hard way that some badges are surface printed and some are incised. Working on a pair of 4x,s, went to wet sand the badges and this is what happened. Wonderful. Now I am gun shy on wet sanding. I have used Brasso and polishing wheel on dremel tool. The 5 badges were wet sanded. The 2ax badges were Brasso and polishing wheel, and the 3a badges are untouched. Any ideas on how to clean up these original badges while we wait the here back from Spensar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ra.ra Posted July 16, 2016 Report Share Posted July 16, 2016 Hmmm, perhaps "incised" was a poor choice of word - - the recessed depth of the letter forms is probably created by an acid etching process or something similar. In any case, I just recently discovered what I think is the most effective and easiest means of cleaning up these badges, as shown on these AR-7's from two weeks ago. Using a metal polish and a piece of scrap cotton flannel, it's just a little squirt and a rub-a-dub-dub, rinse, and Voila! No other abrasives required. These badges were not heavily tarnished yet look at the verdi-gris left behind on the fabric swatch. Using this method, I'll probably re-do other "etched" badges, and then inhibit further tarnish with a light spritz of clear lacquer. Have not yet tried this with the black variety, nor have I found another suitable method for cleaning these. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spensar Posted July 16, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2016 Your eagle eyes were right on the money, they are AR4x speakers - pictures below. The condition was very good, papers attached on the back were complete, wood needs some work - normal scuffing on the top, sides were pretty nice. I was the first to them, had them in hand, but I actually passed and let another person buy them. Before letting them go we chatted a bit and he knew his stuff, knew his ARs and restoration - rueful smiles they were not AR3s. I was happy that someone would save and restore them and not just use them as bangers for a while and turf them. So I got my vintage fix and let them go to good hands. I love a good deal but have limited space and and will keep looking for something a bit higher up the speaker food chain. Final deal was he bought the 4 for $50 in total. Does my rationalizing still sound credible :-) Unfortunately, there was not another spec of vintage sound gear in the place. Thanks again to everyone for the ID help. It let me keep my head and not just do another impulse buy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKent Posted July 17, 2016 Report Share Posted July 17, 2016 Quote Final deal was he bought the 4 for $50 in total. Holy Cow! He got an absolute steal! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ra.ra Posted July 17, 2016 Report Share Posted July 17, 2016 Thanks, Kent, for clearly stating my exact thought. Am just not clear about how someone who has limited space will be able to accommodate something "higher up the... food chain" (AR-3's?) without spending 20 times as much as this sale required. IMHO, E.F Schumacher said it best when he wrote in 1973, "Small Is Beautiful". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyC Posted July 17, 2016 Report Share Posted July 17, 2016 4 hours ago, Spensar said: I was the first to them, had them in hand, but I actually passed and let another person buy them. Before letting them go we chatted a bit and he knew his stuff, knew his ARs and restoration - rueful smiles they were not AR3s. I was happy that someone would save and restore them and not just use them as bangers for a while and turf them. So I got my vintage fix and let them go to good hands. I love a good deal but have limited space and and will keep looking for something a bit higher up the speaker food chain. Final deal was he bought the 4 for $50 in total. Does my rationalizing still sound credible :-) Since you asked...No! You had a chance to hear the AR sound of the era and let it go. I'm not sure what you mean by having had your "vintage fix" without having actually listened to them. They were a steal. You could have easily turned them around later for a profit after acquiring some experience with them, which could then have been used toward something "higher up the food chain". You are in the wrong forum to have asked that question. I should add that AR-3's typically costing 10 to 20 times as much as this deal often need additional work just to get them to sound as good as a humble pair of relatively easily restored AR-4x's. Roy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
owlsplace Posted July 17, 2016 Report Share Posted July 17, 2016 Wow, wish those were in Mr Rogers neighborhood. I don't think I would get tired of them anytime soon but easily flipped for $300 or more if I did ... Roger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
owlsplace Posted July 17, 2016 Report Share Posted July 17, 2016 oops! another double post ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spensar Posted July 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2016 6 hours ago, RoyC said: Since you asked...No! You had a chance to hear the AR sound of the era and let it go. I'm not sure what you mean by having had your "vintage fix" without having actually listened to them. They were a steal. You could have easily turned them around later for a profit after acquiring some experience with them, which could then have been used toward something "higher up the food chain". You are in the wrong forum to have asked that question. I should add that AR-3's typically costing 10 to 20 times as much as this deal often need additional work just to get them to sound as good as a humble pair of relatively easily restored AR-4x's. Roy I did consider just saying I bought them, as I thought passing on them could get me a immediate and automatic life ban from the forum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spensar Posted July 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2016 6 hours ago, RoyC said: Since you asked...No! You had a chance to hear the AR sound of the era and let it go. I'm not sure what you mean by having had your "vintage fix" without having actually listened to them. They were a steal. You could have easily turned them around later for a profit after acquiring some experience with them, which could then have been used toward something "higher up the food chain". You are in the wrong forum to have asked that question. I should add that AR-3's typically costing 10 to 20 times as much as this deal often need additional work just to get them to sound as good as a humble pair of relatively easily restored AR-4x's. Roy I did consider just saying I bought them, as I thought passing on them could get me a immediate and automatic life ban from the forum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lARrybody Posted July 17, 2016 Report Share Posted July 17, 2016 I shook hands with Bill Clinton in May, attended my friends Gay wedding in June. I am good with all that. Why does the conclusion of this thread tend to bother me? I guess Spensar doesn't have a picture of Henry Kloss hanging on his wall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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