Replacement Speaker Cloth

[ian hughes]

Hi everyone

I am just starting the restoration of my AR 2ax's. I have removed the original speaker cloths from the backing board and proceeded to clean these by gently stretching them across a suitable frame and then using some diluted detergent and bleach. This has achieved a fairly good recovery of the general look and feel of the cloth which was very badly stained brown in many areas (they have been stored in my loft space for over 20 years).

However, I have also searched for some replacement cloth because the margins of material I have got to refix the original cloth to the backing board are quite tight, and the material has a tendency to shed threads from the edges big time if you are not careful with your handling. Plus, unfortunatly I have a very small puncture mark in one of the cloths caused by a miss-guided screwdriver when trying to remove the original staples!

I have found what I consider to be a very good replacement cloth from the Zweigart brand range of linens. The one I have choosen is called: "14 Count Rustico Aida" in the Oatmeal colour. You can find this cloth on-line or from "Cross Stich" supplies shops.

The look of this linen is a bit different to the original, BUT if you are not looking for absolute authentic replacement cloth then I think it will do very nicely. It is (in my opinion) a good colour which is close to the original, it has a slightly 'hairy' finish (hence the Rustico name) which looks good, BUT it does have a much more uniform 'manufactured look' to its thread pattern rather than the somewhat random pattern of the orginal AR cloth. I managed to buy sufficient material for both speaker cloths (39x 43 inches) from www.sewandso.co.uk for £17.22. They will also qoute prices in $ and ship to the US but I am sure you can by the Zweigart product locally.

[RoyC]

Why not use something exactly like the original cloth? It is 18ct "Lambswool", 100% linen, and also available from cross stitch fabric suppliers.

http://www.123stitch.com/cgi-perl/itemdetail.pl?item=59-135X

Roy

[ian hughes]

Why not use something exactly like the original cloth? It is 18ct "Lambswool", 100% linen, and also available from cross stitch fabric suppliers.

http://www.123stitch.com/cgi-perl/itemdetail.pl?item=59-135X

Roy

Hi Roy

Thanks for your post and info about the cloth you have obviously successfully used. The comparison photos are useful too. What's interesting to me is that the 'original' cloth you are comparing with is slightly different to mine. I guess over the years AR will have necessarily used slightly different materials. I wonder if they also used different materials in different markets/models?

Your suggested cloth looks really good, and if I hadn't already purchased something and started using it I would certainly try it.

Just for the sake of clarity my original cloth has a much more 'rustic' look to it with a considerable variation in thread thicknesses. It generally looks less machine woven and has an even more random 'hand woven' look than your original material.

Ian

[JKent]

Hi Ian and welcome to CSP

Like you, I searched for appropriate grille cloth. At one time you could get Irish Linen for a good price in Michael's Craft Stores here in the US. The stuff they sell now is not as nice and no longer says "Irish" so maybe it's Chinese linen They do sell some other nice linen from Belgium but the weave is a bit too fine (32 count).

I too tried Aida cloth while looking for something for my KLH Model Eight radios. Problem with the Aida: It is not as acoustically transparent (IMHO) as the linen.

The specific linen recommended by Roy (and mentioned in the AR3a Restoration booklet) is very high quality, with a substantial feel, yet has good transparency and looks great. It's made by Wichelt and should be available on your side of the pond.

Here is a shot of my 2ax's with the 18-count "lambswool" linen.

Kent

[genek]

Just for the sake of clarity my original cloth has a much more 'rustic' look to it with a considerable variation in thread thicknesses. It generally looks less machine woven and has an even more random 'hand woven' look than your original material.

I have observed three variations of "linen" in various US versions of classic ARs. An off-white with even thread, an off-white with uneven thread and an off-white with uneven thread and uneven color with light brown fiber "flecks" in it. The last was what came on my 1975 2ax's and has proven to be the most difficult to duplicate.

In other markets, AR used fabrics in dark brown, dark red and a brown/red weave. And in the earlier, pre-linen 1950's models, fabric was all over the place.

[ian hughes]

I have observed three variations of "linen" in various US versions of classic ARs. An off-white with even thread, an off-white with uneven thread and an off-white with uneven thread and uneven color with light brown fiber "flecks" in it. The last was what came on my 1975 2ax's and has proven to be the most difficult to duplicate.

In other markets, AR used fabrics in dark brown, dark red and a brown/red weave. And in the earlier, pre-linen 1950's models, fabric was all over the place.

Sounds like my 2ax cloth is of the most elusive type! And its useful to hear about audio transparency of the aida cloth. I may try getting hold of Roy's recommended fabric hear in the UK.

Thanks everyone

Ian

[Carlspeak]

Sounds like my 2ax cloth is of the most elusive type! And its useful to hear about audio transparency of the aida cloth. I may try getting hold of Roy's recommended fabric hear in the UK.

Thanks everyone

Ian

All you need to look for in the UK is what's called 'linen scrim'. I've searched there thru the WWW and found many suppliers of window cleaning scrim.

[RoyC]

All you need to look for in the UK is what's called 'linen scrim'. I've searched there thru the WWW and found many suppliers of window cleaning scrim.

Scrim is typically considered to be a lighter, gauze-like material, and I highly doubt anyone is spending the money to wash windows with Wichelt Lambswool, which is a much heavier, stiff, and rather expensive material. John O'Hanlon (our resident electron microscope jockey ) and I spent a great deal of time searching for material that would precisely duplicate AR material...from any era. Our only match was the 18ct Wichelt material. Fortunately it appears to have been used on the majority of US AR speakers from the late 60's to about '73, so it covers lots of territory. BTW, the same type of linen was widely used later on with a higher (20 through 28) thread count. I owned a pair of '72/'73 era European 3a's which used a higher-than-18ct linen, yet it was the same shade and texture as the Lambswool.

Cross stitch suppliers are by far the best bet.

Incidentally, 18ct Wichelt linen comes in a variety of colors and shades for the adventurous.

http://www.123stitch.com/cgi-perl/fabric/linen_fabric.pl

Roy

[genek]

Scrim is typically considered to be a lighter, gauze-like material, and I highly doubt anyone is spending the money to wash windows with Wichelt Lambswool, which is a much heavier, stiff, and rather expensive material.

At $15-$25/yard, I doubt that anyone is using flax linen scrim for window cleaning, either. At least not the better-quality material that is generally sold as window treatment or needlecraft material. The biggest issue with it is that most offerings have threads that are too heavy and a weave that is too open. Probably sounds ok, but unless you go with the Kloss scheme of backing it with a sheer black layer you'll be seeing drivers through the fabric.

[JKent]

Incidentally, 18ct Wichelt linen comes in a variety of colors and shades for the adventurous.

The ORANGE might be just the thing for that 60s look! Gotta get me some shag carpet

But seriously... Some KLH speakers had brown grilles. Maybe the "coffee" would look good, except that the 32 ct is a bit too fine.

I have sometimes used the stuff currently being sold in Michael's because it's cheap with the weekly 40% off coupon, but NOTHING is as nice as the Wichelt 18 ct lambswool. Many thanks to John & Roy for tracking that down.

Kent

[Carlspeak]

Some 4 years ago I did an in-depth study of grille fabrics brought on by a search for an AR cloth replacement.

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Boar...11&hl=cloth

As Roy points out in that thread, the TPI count varied quite a bit over time at AR. In my case, the fabric I analyzed had a 20X25 weave.

As for Charles Craft Irish linen, it ain't Irish no more. I think they're getting it now from somewhere in Eastern Europe.

I"ve pointed out in a number of posts in a variety of forums, most any linen in the 18-30 TPI range and 4-6 OSY will do fine both acoustically and aesthetically.

[jagster]

Some 4 years ago I did an in-depth study of grille fabrics brought on by a search for an AR cloth replacement.

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Boar...11&hl=cloth

As Roy points out in that thread, the TPI count varied quite a bit over time at AR. In my case, the fabric I analyzed had a 20X25 weave.

As for Charles Craft Irish linen, it ain't Irish no more. I think they're getting it now from somewhere in Eastern Europe.

I"ve pointed out in a number of posts in a variety of forums, most any linen in the 18-30 TPI range and 4-6 OSY will do fine both acoustically and aesthetically.

Seems to me that a lot of effort is being put into 'restoring' the original look of the speakers, when most of us are more intrested in hearing what they have to offer in terms of sound. My AR-2's were in horrible shape when I got them, and the stapled-on grills had seen better days. The cloth was horribly dated, some sort of basket-weave junk that no one would have used in the first place. I refinished the cabinets, cleaned up the woofers (still in great shape after all these years) and replaced some horrible mid-tweets that were originally used in table radios! For grillcloth, it is now some acoustically transparent material in brown that is offered for sale by the different aftermarket suppliers. It is a jersey-like, stretchable material that goes on easily and looks great. Like my older Jaguars, I am into updating and improving things, making them more reliable, practical, and all the more fun to have around.

[genek]

Seems to me that a lot of effort is being put into 'restoring' the original look of the speakers, when most of us are more intrested in hearing what they have to offer in terms of sound.

Most people in the brand name forums, especially AR, are most interested in restoring the original look AND the original sound. We have a Mods and Tweaks forum for people interested in redesigns of either.

[RoyC]

replaced some horrible mid-tweets that were originally used in table radios!

Where did you get your information? What did you replace it with? I assume you modified the crossover network to accommodate it.

The grille cloth you used is well known, and does not represent a sonic improvement over what is being discussed in this thread...and its appearance is in the eye of the beholder.

Roy

[JKent]

replaced some horrible mid-tweets that were originally used in table radios!

The AR-2 had the dual angled mid-tweets (the 2A added a supertweeter). Never heard that those were radio speakers. Also never heard any complaints about them. Are you thinking of KLH? The TOTL Five and Twelve speakers used a 4-1/2" mid that was also used as the full-range in the Model Eight and Model Twenty-One radios. An excellent driver btw.

Kent

[benffjoany]

Hello,

Thanks a lot to Ian Hugues making know Zweigart, the study by Carlspeak and everybody.

Here is some fabrics exemples sold in France, at that time; i haven't tried them yet, and, so, don't know if it's sonicaly ok for my KLH's ( 6,17,32).

http://www.defilenidees.com/TOILES.HTM

benff

[oldarnut]

The two cone mid/tweeters in the AR2 and AR2a's were terrible. My cones warped so bad they buzzed from the voice coil rubbing on the magnet after about 15 years. I replaced them with a single 4" cone automotive-type full range speaker. The woofers and "fried egg" tweeters are working fine after just about 45 years.

[axoneill]

Seems to me that a lot of effort is being put into 'restoring' the original look of the speakers, when most of us are more intrested in hearing what they have to offer in terms of sound. My AR-2's were in horrible shape when I got them, and the stapled-on grills had seen better days. The cloth was horribly dated, some sort of basket-weave junk that no one would have used in the first place. I refinished the cabinets, cleaned up the woofers (still in great shape after all these years) and replaced some horrible mid-tweets that were originally used in table radios! For grillcloth, it is now some acoustically transparent material in brown that is offered for sale by the different aftermarket suppliers. It is a jersey-like, stretchable material that goes on easily and looks great. Like my older Jaguars, I am into updating and improving things, making them more reliable, practical, and all the more fun to have around.

I just received an order of the 18 CT "Irish Linen" from 1-2-3 Stitch and find it to be darker than I would like, more tan/light brown rather than off white/white, and quite course, I called 1-2-3 and they offered an 28 CT "White Jubilee" or "White Lugana" as substitutes, anyone have experience with these? I'm looking for something with texture to it, but fine enough weave to work on 4Xs and 2Axs. Here are a different pair of 4Xs in process with the last of the cloth I had as gift from a friend.

[RoyC]

I just received an order of the 18 CT "Irish Linen" from 1-2-3 Stitch and find it to be darker than I would like, more tan/light brown rather than off white/white, and quite course, I called 1-2-3 and they offered an 28 CT "White Jubilee" or "White Lugana" as substitutes, anyone have experience with these? I'm looking for something with texture to it, but fine enough weave to work on 4Xs and 2Axs. Here are a different pair of 4Xs in process with the last of the cloth I had as gift from a friend.

Larry Lagace/Vintage AR sells a light cloth.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ACOUSTIC-RESEARCH-AR-4X-AR-4xa-GRILLES-CLOTH-LOGOS-/190496078465?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item2c5a737a81

If your cloth is still new and uncut, I'll take it off your hands. Send me a PM.

Roy

[michiganpat]

if you have a Micheals Crafts or Joanns Fabrics near you, check out their cross stitch isle, they sell different open weave linens in various colors that should be very close to the irish linen or original AR fabric.

[axoneill]

Larry Lagace/Vintage AR sells a light cloth.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ACOUSTIC-RESEARCH-AR-4X-AR-4xa-GRILLES-CLOTH-LOGOS-/190496078465?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item2c5a737a81

If your cloth is still new and uncut, I'll take it off your hands. Send me a PM.

Roy

Thanks Roy, will do. I did place an order with Larry so will see how I like his material. BTW sorry about the spell check - the correct word was "coarse" material, not "course".

[genek]

There at least three variations on linen that I have seen on original classic AR grills. One is slightly tan and a bit coarse, around 22-24ct similar to the Wichelt; a lighter off-white, also 22-24ct, similar to what Larry is selling except that his seems a bit lighter in weight; and then there's the stuff that came on my 1975 2ax's, about 24-28ct with a variegated color - I think the vertical threads were darker and the horizontals lighter, with bits of brown fibers mixed into both. I haven't seen anything like that one; at the time it was probably sourced from the cheapest supplier, but today it doesn't seem to be sold by anyone.

[Carlspeak]

The quest for AR grille cloth has been going on for some time now. Charles Craft had a nice candidate for some time but evidently has changed manufacturer's and the 28ct 'sand' fabric in the convenient 20X24 inch size is no more and the tea 'replacement' isn't even close to acceptable.

Currently 1-2-3 Stitch's 18ct in 'lambswool' appears to be the fabric of choice. It's very nice, but expensive at a unit price of $37/sq. yd. before shipping costs are added on. Available piece size is not convenient for larger AR speakers, except perhaps 4x's. Two 18X27 inch pieces must be purchased for the 3, 3a's and AR2 series speakers.

I'm currently offering a 100% linen fabric that is 20X21ct which performs, acoustically on par compared to the Stitch fabric. The test below was done comparing the HF performance of the Stitch fabric and my offering and a no fabric 'control'. Each fabric was draped in front of a loudspeaker with a high quality tweeter and the test mic was located inches away from and on axis with the tweeter. The tests show both fabrics attenuate the 9 kHz to 17 kHz frequency slightly (about 1 dB worse case) with the stitch fabric (green line) dipping a bit below mine (red line) about 1/2 dB in the 9-13 kHz range.

Also attached is a side-by-side photo of the fabrics. The Stitch fabric (on the left) color is a lighter tan than mine. The Stitch fabric is quite robust in basis weight (7.8 OSY) vs mine (5.1 OSY). Original AR linen fabrics I've weighed range in the 5.5 to 6 OSY range.

[RoyC]

Currently 1-2-3 Stitch's 18ct in 'lambswool' appears to be the fabric of choice. It's very nice, but expensive at a unit price of $37/sq. yd. before shipping costs are added on. Available piece size is not convenient for larger AR speakers, except perhaps 4x's. Two 18X27 inch pieces must be purchased for the 3, 3a's and AR2 series speakers.

One 27x36 inch piece of Lambswool is enough for a pair of larger speakers, like the 3a, 2ax or 5, and costs $33 (including shipping) from 1-2-3 Stitch.

http://www.123stitch.com/cgi-perl/itemdetail.pl?item=59-135X

It is 18ct and heavy, like the late 60's/early 70's AR cloth. As time went on the AR cloth became a bit lighter in weight and the thread count increased. Tom Tyson has some new original AR cloth, and has confirmed it and the Lambswool to be virtually identical.

18ct Lambswool can also be ordered from most cross stitch/needlepoint business's. I found it locally.

Carl, what are you charging for enough to cover a pair of 3a's?

Roy

[Carlspeak]

Carl, what are you charging for enough to cover a pair of 3a's?

Roy

About $10 less.