AR3 with no finish. Where to start?

[Hobwork]

Hi, this is my first post in this forum regarding a pair of AR3 speakers I recently obtained from a gentleman who had them in a cabinet all of their life. 

The gentleman was selling his house so I obtained the AR3 along with other equipment he had.  He actually had to hire someone to break apart the cabinets to release these AR3.

So upon careful inspection, these speakers are missing the AR tags and the "3" tags.  Since I have a few pairs of AR2 laying around, I have decided to speak to long time member of this forum Dr. Kent for a pair of remake "3". 

As we spoke further, I sent him a photos of the serial number in the back.  They are C0696 & C0697.  Dr. Kent told me to hold all restoration and consult the experts in this forum because any restoration I do could significantly hurt the value of these speakers.  

 

 

Listening test:

AR3 have been my dream speakers for awhile, I heard them at a friend's house a few years ago and I wanted a pair since.  I tested the sounds of these speakers with MC250 and MX114 that I obtained from the gentleman.  Sure enough, they sound amazing with the exception of one of the Tweeter.  I played with the knobs a little and the sound only comes back at the highest dial. 

I was thinking about recapping and cleaning the pots, but it will require taking off the grills.  They seem to be glued pretty tight and I might not be able to open them without tearing them.

Cosmetic:

These speakers were living in the cabinets in their whole life, so they appear to be in good original condition.  The speakers have no finished on them.  However, when they built the cabinets years ago，they painted the speakers Black on the sides and the button.  Should I find a way to remove the paint or repaint on top?

Sorry for such a long post, but if any of you guys could give me some input of how to proceed, I would really appreciate it!

 

 

 

Thanks in advance

Richard

 

 

 

 

 

[samberger0357]

Welcome to the forum! 

 

Those are fantastic , 1st year(I'm guessing) examples of AR 3's. And yes, there are plenty of folks who will help you get them back into tip top shape. 

I'm going to guess that the caps, which are most likely the oil filled variety which typically don't stray much, and unless they are leaking are usually good forever, are not the culprit of your tweeter issues. Probably corroded pots which will at the very least need removal and cleaning. Again, others with more experience than I will be along shortly to give you advice on the best methods to do that. 

Again, congratulations on your find. Once back in shape they will be sure to bring you hours of great listening. 

[JKent]

Hi Richard

Let me be the first to say "welcome to CSP!"

You and I have emailed about these and they are beautiful, rare and collectible examples of the AR-3! I'm sure Tom, Roy and others will chime in to advise you how to preserve these and enjoy them.

That was quite a find, especially with the McIntosh components! Congrats!

Kent

edit: OOPS! Looks like Sam was typing while I was. So let me be the SECOND to welcome you 

[lakecat]

You might be in a little luck but black is terrible to get out. The good thing is looks like they used rattle cans to spray your cabinets with that god awful black so most of the black is on the surface of the wood. I would get a good paint remover and apply it liberally....and leave it on for awhile to soak in before scrapping it off. I would do it several times and let dry. I would then take blades used in utility knives and hand scrap with those in the direction of grain only. Then I would use 100 grit to sand a little....and finish with 220. Clean with tact cloth and see where you stand.

[genek]

Paint remover will dissolve and dilute the rattle can paint and may cause it to penetrate more deeply into the wood. I'd try a Scotch abrasive pad first. You might get lucky and be able to scrub the paint off dry, and if not, the less paint there is on the wood when you have to resort to chemistry the better.

[lakecat]

5 hours ago, genek said:

Paint remover will dissolve and dilute the rattle can paint and may cause it to penetrate more deeply into the wood. I'd try a Scotch abrasive pad first. You might get lucky and be able to scrub the paint off dry, and if not, the less paint there is on the wood when you have to resort to chemistry the better.

Not to be disrespectful but your statement is silly. It's PAINT REMOVER!..and have been taking paint off wood antiques for years with nary a problem. This is veneer so absorption is little to worry about. The remover lifts the paint off wood and after scrapping off the residue, I will sometimes add another thin coat and wipe it down with steel wool until completely removed. After letting it dry that is why scrapping with utility blades is important before any sanding as it removes any lifted residue. He may still have to bleach some...but thankfully the paint wasn't brushed on. 

He has not responded so who knows what he will do!....:)

[JKent]

5 hours ago, lakecat said:

He has not responded so who knows what he will do!

He's busy with life! I've emailed back and forth with Richard and in addition to his responsibilities he's taking some time to absorb what the experts here have to say.

And "not to be disrespectful" either Cat, but these are rare speakers and I think Gene's cautious approach makes sense. Truth be told, I had suggested a stripper such as the soy-based kind or CitriStrip but as I said, a more cautious approach is warranted.

Kent

[genek]

I would agree with you if this was a hardwood veneered cabinet, but it's pine plywood. Open-grained, porous softwood. Just one step above doug fir exterior construction grade. The less solvent that's allowed to soak into it, the better. And if remover is used, I'd go with a thick paste or gel and not anything liquid, because I've seen water-thin strippers delaminate the outer layer of softwood ply.

5 hours ago, lakecat said:

Not to be disrespectful but your statement is silly. It's PAINT REMOVER!..and have been taking paint off wood antiques for years with nary a problem. This is veneer so absorption is little to worry about. The remover lifts the paint off wood and after scrapping off the residue, I will sometimes add another thin coat and wipe it down with steel wool until completely removed. After letting it dry that is why scrapping with utility blades is important before any sanding as it removes any lifted residue. He may still have to bleach some...but thankfully the paint wasn't brushed on. 

He has not responded so who knows what he will do!....:)

 

[Hobwork]

Sorry all, I finally find a moment to reply.  Upon seeing the comments from you guys, I am leaning toward the more "Dry" methods to remove the paint.  Largely because the speakers are unfinished, and was not veneered, which makes it even harder to remove.  Closer look at it, the spray paint almost looked like it has been absorb by the wood.  I haven't started the process yet, which brings me to the next topic about these speakers.

I have full intention of keeping these speakers, but I don't want to do anything that would damage the originality of these speakers.  If as simple as sanding them or opening the grills would hurt their value, I would properly just use these speakers as is.  That is the kind of conversation I had with Dr. Kent previously.  Being that these speakers have early consecutive serial numbers and was unmolested, he suggested me to post some photos here so I can gather more opinions from AR experts and historians.   If I can verify that these AR3 are just like any typical version of the AR3 speakers, I would do a complete overhual of the cabinets, pots, add tags, and all the necessary restorations on the woofer.  Now I just have to be patient before I make a move I would regret later.

As for the tweeter, I have turn the knobs in the back many time, and it feels like it is coming back to life little by little.  I am hoping to avoid opening up the grill because it seems to be glued.  I love the sound of these speakers so much, I am selling my living room Snell C/IV speakers to make room for these AR3....haha.... hopefully I made the right decision!  Thank you all for being patient with me!

Rich

 

[DavidDru]

Welcome Richard, and nice find for sure.  Some of the best surviving examples of AR's are turning out to be ones that had been used in applications similar to what you found with these.  Preserved in other cabinets or up on shelves.  I have AR2's and AR5's that were in cabinets and are now great unfinished specimens.

Personally I struggle with the unfinished cabinets versions.  I know they are a bit more rare which can translate to higher collector value, but they just aren't very good looking. ? Nor does any finish you can put on them do anything for me.  Mine get no use because of this aspect.  Without the collector value thing, I'd probably go ahead and do a great wood veneer on them.

Doesn't take away how good they sound of course and they are fun to restore (well, maybe one AR3 restore is enough).  Good luck with it.  My guess too is that the pots are the only issue, especially if they sound good now.

[lakecat]

On 9/14/2018 at 10:55 PM, genek said:

I would agree with you if this was a hardwood veneered cabinet, but it's pine plywood. Open-grained, porous softwood. Just one step above doug fir exterior construction grade. The less solvent that's allowed to soak into it, the better. And if remover is used, I'd go with a thick paste or gel and not anything liquid, because I've seen water-thin strippers delaminate the outer layer of softwood ply.

 

I had a thread here on a pine 3a that was stained dark. I used stripper on it with no problem. My only issue was stain in veneer cracks that I had to bleach out...but gel is all I use for stripper anyways...or ever. 

[lakecat]

-, I am leaning toward the more "Dry" methods to remove the paint.  Largely because the speakers are unfinished, and was not veneered, which makes it even harder to remove.  Closer look at it, the spray paint almost looked like it has been absorb by the wood.-

As the cabinet sits....it has reduced value with the paint and screw holes so wouldn't worry about that. I would use utility blades to scrap paint first to see what yields as any kind of sanding on paint may just grind the paint into wood from heat. And that pine is a thin sheet of wood like veneer. You will have to remove grills to access crossover so it can be done if gentle. Most important is the mids and getting them looked at/worked on.The mids and tweeters have aluminum leads that are very fragile so experience is helpful in removing them. Early serial numbers may have the oil caps and they will not have to be replaced. You have ever right to be cautious but not afraid of them.

[Hobwork]

DavidDru, your point is exactly my thinking about these speakers.  It is a catch 22, I would like to restore the cabinets but on a historical point of view, it may hurt the speakers.  However, leaving them like this for use is really an eyesore.  However, I don't want to end up storing them and wait for another pairs because these don't come up very often for cheap, and I happen to love the sound of them.

With that said, I think I am going to try the method lakecat had suggested with utility blades.  My hope is if I can get the black color off to certain extend, then I can apply something on the cabinet lightly just to protect them.  As for the Tweeter, I have been turning them periodialy and see if I can loosen them up.  It is ok so far when the tweeter is dialed to max, but is losing sound at lower dial.  If I leave them at max, the tweeter would function fine but I hear a slight bit of distortion when it is at max.  Looks like I still have a lot to work ahead!

[tysontom]

On 9/13/2018 at 9:54 AM, Hobwork said:

Hi, this is my first post in this forum regarding a pair of AR3 speakers I recently obtained from a gentleman who had them in a cabinet all of their life. 

The gentleman was selling his house so I obtained the AR3 along with other equipment he had.  He actually had to hire someone to break apart the cabinets to release these AR3.

So upon careful inspection, these speakers are missing the AR tags and the "3" tags.  Since I have a few pairs of AR2 laying around, I have decided to speak to long time member of this forum Dr. Kent for a pair of remake "3". 

As we spoke further, I sent him a photos of the serial number in the back.  They are C0696 & C0697.  Dr. Kent told me to hold all restoration and consult the experts in this forum because any restoration I do could significantly hurt the value of these speakers.  

 

 

Listening test:

AR3 have been my dream speakers for awhile, I heard them at a friend's house a few years ago and I wanted a pair since.  I tested the sounds of these speakers with MC250 and MX114 that I obtained from the gentleman.  Sure enough, they sound amazing with the exception of one of the Tweeter.  I played with the knobs a little and the sound only comes back at the highest dial. 

I was thinking about recapping and cleaning the pots, but it will require taking off the grills.  They seem to be glued pretty tight and I might not be able to open them without tearing them.

Cosmetic:

These speakers were living in the cabinets in their whole life, so they appear to be in good original condition.  The speakers have no finished on them.  However, when they built the cabinets years ago，they painted the speakers Black on the sides and the button.  Should I find a way to remove the paint or repaint on top?

Sorry for such a long post, but if any of you guys could give me some input of how to proceed, I would really appreciate it!

 

 

 

Thanks in advance

Richard

 

 

 

 

 

Richard,

Congratulations on your very lucky "find!"  These are definitely first-generation AR-3s (notice the pressboard grill frame with only one side with the angle support at the woofer end).  These would also have the midrange drivers without the later white butyl-latex around the voice-coil gap, and thus these midrange drivers likely haven't lost efficiency as the white material hardens later in life!  The white material was added by Roy Allison after he joined AR in late 1959.  This is perhaps the most "famous" loudspeaker system ever built during the 1950-1980 period, so you should be proud of your find.

If I had these speakers, I would not even attempt to remove the grills.  It is actually very rare to find a pair as unmolested as these.  First of all, it will not be easy to get the the grills off, and once you do, you'll never get them back on like it was done at the factory.  There will always be a sag here or there.  If all of the drivers work okay, you are actually in good shape.  The one tweeter that sounds like it is distorting might likely have "popped" slightly, a condition whereby the dome separates at an angle from the foam suspension because of the pressure of the fiberglass pad under the dome and the presence of excessive amplifier power somewhere in time.  This occurred in a pretty good number of tweeters, so it's not uncommon, considering the very low sensitivity of these special loudspeakers.  Most amplifiers just don't perform well with AR-3s, but the McIntosh transformer-coupled amps love the AR-3s, so you are lucky to have that Mac amp.  These 3s likely also have oil-filled capacitors in the crossover, so the capacitance values have likely not changed over time.  The level controls are always the culprits in poor midrange and tweeter performance, so the only way to tackle this (without ripping into the speakers) is to use some contact spray down along the shafts of each level control (with speakers face-down) and then begin the routine of "twiddling" the controls backward and forwards several hundred times.  Then you leave the room and return in a day or so only to find that some contact has mysteriously returned!  If you can get the controls to function, I would not  try to go in and change crossover pieces.

As for the Ponderosa Pine "utility" cabinets, I would leave them 100% stock and don't put any finish on the wood at all.  You could sand the wood and wax them lightly, but if you finish them, they will look worse.  The black paint isn't pretty, but you could sand some of it away and not worry about the rest!  It doesn't actually detract from the true value of these speakers.  The utility cabinets were originally not designed to have anything on them, thus the "utility" moniker.  Utility speakers were to be the "workhorses" of the industry, and many were used in professional applications.  The grill molding is solid birch, and it should be sanded and lightly waxed only as well.

You are lucky to have found these speakers.  That serial number range indicates that they were built in the first three or four months of production, around February or March of 1959.  The AR-3 was officially introduced to the public in July, 1958 at the Chicago audio fair, and this was the only time the prototype was shown to the public (only one ever made). 

By the Fall of 1958, the AR-3 was officially introduced at the New York High Fidelity Music Show.  In the first day, AR received 500 firm orders from dealers.  The AR-3 speaker began to ship to dealers in the early months of 1959.  Beautiful speakers!

 

--Tom Tyson

 

 

[samberger0357]

Thank you Tom for such an insightful and interesting history lesson!

 

The OP's 3's are indeed some beautiful speakers, and even as an owner of a very nice pair or early 3a's I find myself drooling over them. Hope to find a similar pair for myself one day.