Gaining Speakers, While Losing My Mind!

[DavidR]

Do you like BASS?

The bass won't just rattle the walls it will go down thru the frame of the house - Shakin' all over.

One secret to the speaker's success is the lower range mid to upper mid and how the xover hands of the freq from the woofers on up.

No distortion at any volume and well balanced, too.

[ligs]

I really admire your dedication to vintage AR speakers. I love vintage speakers too but the reality is I could run into the risk of not actually hearing what the sound originally was designed for. This might be due to the aging of drivers, crossovers and parts matching. Even the new speakers do not always have good pair matching. Therefore I am interested in hearing the experiences of vintage speaker collectors about how close is the performance of vintage speakers of today vs vintage speakers when they were just manufactured.

[frankmarsi]

2-19-14 7PM EST

To be honest last night I was playing with these monoliths and I certainly noticed that the four bass speakers were only moving because of the bass input.

I’m used to my LST’s four woofers moving with more than just the bass program material emanating from them.

Using the AR-LSTs since 1990 or so, I’ve become very accustomed to their way of doing things, so I understand I may have to do some ear/mind adjusting so to speak.

Yes DavidR, the bass is there in spades and I’m a former electric bass player going back to the sixties, so my attractions have always been towards the bass first. I believe they’ll satisfy me very much, especially when they’re positioned in the room properly.

So, I’ll wait to receive the money back from the seller/original owner and I proceed from there. First the room must be organized and such, that will take some time because I recently moved into this house and there’s boxes, clothes, memories, and furniture all over the place.

I’ll post after a spell of time and I’ll report back but, before I do, I’d like to hear some input regarding potential tweeter choices. I could spring for slightly more expensive tweeters from other manufacturers like Morel, Dynaudio, etc. or the large number of other manufacturers out there. I’m not planning on spending too much, but since the tweeters I have already planned for the LSTs are here and they require 16 of them so, they’re already spoken for.

The AR9s of course only need two, so a couple of hundred spent on them won’t be out of order.

I’m listening to the 9s from the other room while I sit here in the next room. Yes they sound good, even without the upper end, but typically there’s not to much information there anyway on most program material, besides I’m only using the convenience of CD for my tests, the real test will be when I hook-up a turntable or two with a MC cartridge on clean vinyl.

I can hear the tremendous potential they may have in the offering for the near future, They’re about twenty feet away from me and at a moderate volume and I can feel the desk I’m at vibrate a tad.

That lovely bass power may force me to set that room up real quick now!

There’s just one problem, I’m feeling sad for my LSTs right now. I mean how can I just simply desert them like this?

Material objects are easy to find oneself attached to, and so is the case here.

I’m kind of married the AR-LSTs and this is cheating while they’re in the next room, literally. Don’t get me wrong cause when I was out there in the big city in my field, and in my glory, I always cheated, so I’m O.K. with that, it’s the ‘nature’.

fm

P.S. I will say this, they seem to make the PL400 run slightly warm, so I just attached its dedicated fan to it.

If this becomes a problem, perhaps I may have to think the amplifier thing through also? That doesn’t make me too happy because I’ve been doing the AR+PL combo-thing since ‘74.

And “ligs” it's not only a ‘dedication’ to them, it’s actually a way of life for me. Sounds silly, I know.

The desire to play with speakers and all this stereo stuff most of my life is born out of the love of music!

I certainly don’t have nearly as much technical savy as some do on this site but, I sure can set up a quality vintage system, and that’s complemented by my taste and love of the music I listen to. So that statement just put me into a big pool, but I still feel special about it all. Hey, it's my world that I'm speaking of here.

The general population is not into music like it once was, sadly enough. People like myself are not the norm but, the exception, and I'm O.K. with that also!

See? Give me the few things I ask for and I become this get along, go along type of person.

[DavidR]

If I see a pair of silver ring tweets on eBay I'll send you a PM

There is currently a nice looking pair of the upper mids.

[DavidR]

Can anyone post the correct part number for the AR9 tweeters for Frank.

Thanks, DavidR

[ra.ra]

I do not own this speaker model, but it looks like the tweet for the "9" is 1200029-1.

[DavidR]

Thanks ra.ra

[HarryM]

Frank,

When I bought my 90's, the guy I bought them from had to have the tweeters repaired because like your's these did not work. I don't know how they were repaired but they have worked good since I got them and as far as I can tell they sound the same as my 9 and 91 tweeters. I asked him how they were repaired because I've been under the impression they are not repairable and all he would tell me is his repair guy is the best. If you want I could try and contact him to see if his repair guy would look at your tweeters. I would have to do some searching because I've had computer issues and lost his info.

Harry

[Mafia1976]

Found these on the Uk bay but they are in Albany New York. Are these any good? 191025496512 paste the item number in to the search.

Matt

[DavidR]

Found these on the Uk bay but they are in Albany New York. Are these any good? 191025496512 paste the item number in to the search.

Matt

That's the ones he needs.

I bought my 90s from Vintage_AR.

Good guy.

[frankmarsi]

HI fellas, and thanks very much for the assistance.

The price is out of line for me.

Of course these aren't easy too find, but that price of $278. plus shipping for the pair, gee, that's a portion of what I paid for the speakers themselves.

It may be better for me to search for a Vifa, Morel or anyother brand name for about the same price.

An alternate manufacturer may also offer a higher power handling, and it would be newer (not 36 years old as the originals are) and not altered by age.

I'm still at a loss here, I may just install one of my ABtech jobs and hope for the best.

The seller still hasn't refunded me, and I'm leary of his doing so.

Any other suggestions will be appreciated, please keep me posted with any finds.

I'm surprised that no one here with experience of using other manufacturer's tweeters has not come forth?

I'm still searching myself, but have found zip!

fm

[RoyC]

HI fellas, and thanks very much for the assistance.

That's a site member and the price is out of line for me.

Of course these aren't easy too find, but that price is nuts at $278. plus shipping for the pair, that's a portion of what I paid for the speakers themselves.

I may be a little nuts myself, but just on general priciples alone, the price is out of order.

It may be better for me to search for a Vifa, Morel or anyother brand name for about the same price.

An alternate manufacturer may also offer a higher power handling, and it would be newer (not 36 years old as the originals are) and not altered by age.

I'm still at a loss here, I may just install one of my ABtech jobs and hope for the best.

The seller still hasn't refunded me, and I'm leary of his doing so.

Any other suggestions will be appreciated, please keep me posted with any finds.

I'm surprised that no one here with experience of using other manufacturer's tweeters has not come forth?

I'm still searching myself, but have found zip!

fm

Frank,

Check your messages. I sent you a PM a couple of days ago...

I have two original tweeters available. They look the same as the one in Vintage AR's Ebay listing.

Otoh, you can easily drop one of your AB Tech tweeters into the cabinets until you decide what to do. If you recall our many discussions about crossovers, NO tweeter (regardless of price) will sound the same as the AR tweeter...but the ABT tweeter fits the hole, and will do as well as any other non-AR tweeter you may be considering.

Roy

[frankmarsi]

2-25-14-2pm est

‘Old speakers, old amplifiers’

As if I wanted this to happen.

Like, I’m not a dedicated Phase Linear fan of over 40 years.

Or to imply that I have no control over a volume knob.

As I was maybe suspecting, the ‘ole gray mare just ain’t what she used to be!

These last few days I’ve been gently breaking in the surrounds on my very nice looking AR-9s. I’ve been gentle to the point of being bored and unexcited with them. I’ve been treating them like fine china or a beauty queen who likes me for who I really am and not how much money I may have.

Last night, I had number one system (4 AR-LSTs) going and as always my two Phase Linear PL700Series II (rebuilt by that guy in Washington state) were having their typically easy time at powering the four LSTs at a fairly loud level.

With vinyl, the sound is soooooooo musical and enjoyable, so much so, that it draws one into the room wearing a smile. That, coupled with a secure feeling of how ‘real’ and beautiful the music is sounding.

Reveling in the great sound that #1 system produces, I went into the other room where the AR-9s are lurking and put on a CD. Mind you this set-up is only temporary and the room is in no way set-up for listening, merely a holding pen for those two behemoths of AR history.

Well, I didn’t really warm-up the system as I normally do and turned it up, but not to a crazy volume level, just loud enough to see/hear if they came close to what was going on in the other room, they didn’t. Within a matter of moments the volume went down and nothing but a low level of that mind wrenching ugly sound of distortion, indicating immediately that the amp had failed.

Luckily, that was the extent of it and not some room filling horrible loud pop-noise that takes out tweeters and woofers alike. No flames either, you non-believers!

Now, before any nay sayers jump on the usual typical anti-Phase Linear bandwagon here, let me say this. This particular amp had been powering one set of AR-LSTs from January 2013 to August 2013 during the testing of the room and set-up of equipment and speakers and everything else. It ran fine with out any indication or refusal to perform, even when pushed. In fact it was the best condition one out of the six that I own. Only that it is an original mint specimen and that’s where the problem obviously lies.

When I decided where the four stacked LSTs would go and finished basic set-up in that room, this amplifier was pulled out of service and two PL700IIs were then put in it’s place and everything was now hunky-dory with system number one.

When I got the AR-9s just last week, this particular PL400 was put back into service to hear the AR-9s. I haven’t really pushed it because almost immediately I realized that the AR-9s were soaking-up power and I decided not to push the amplifier to any crazy levels.

So, along I come last night and after, oh I wouldn’t say more than three minutes the amplifier decides to quit.

Finally, here’s my point/question: I’m thinking that these 130 pound monsters with their double woofers and such will not permit me to use a vintage and older, never been rebuilt PL400. I’m assuming that the AR-9’s ‘intense’ cross over with all of its capacitors and coils and shit are a tough nut for any amplifier, compounded by those two woofers, it just not an easy load.

I’m feeling if I want to enjoy these AR-9s, perhaps I must use a newer and more robust amplifier to drive them safely.

If asked; even though these AR-9s are operating sans tweeters, I’m not really so thrilled by their sound.

No, I’m not! To me; they sound too modern, not as warm and romantic sounding as I’m used to with the AR-LSTs. In fact they sound like, to me anyway, like a system with two cheap rectangular 8” woofer box speakers and a subwoofer behind them.

The midrange just doesn’t come across as warm and smooth sounding as with the AR-LSTs.

That’s right Johnny, there doesn’t seem to be any cohesiveness or smoothness to the their overall sound, certainly not like the LSTs portray with every type of music I put through them.

With the AR-9s it’s like; an in your face midrange with a smidgen of bass, unless the recording is bass-heavy or they depict a tonal balance that seems to be categorized by frequency. Or is this a property inherent with a four-way design. There seems to be a cut and dry division of frequency transmission, not a smooth over-all field of sound like I’m used to with the LSTs.

Then again, perhaps I need more time to do some qualifying listening sessions?

Play with the equalizer, tune the room, speaker placement, furnishings, etc.

The thing is; I can’t do that now with out an appropriate amp.

Call me nut-so, or whatever you like (understandably not a stretch if you do), but it isn’t a smooth transition of sound that I’m hearing with the AR-9s.

It’s like: ‘Oh, here’s the midrange, and here’s the bass’, insisting that first comes the midrange and the bass is coming and looming somewhere near the floor, take your pick.

So, now what da hell do I do?

I don’t want to spend tons of money on more amps, and I like my old and out-dated PLs. With those inaccurate meters and their typically wonderful sound quality they’re very lovable. And in terms of nostalgia, they’re almost a perfect match for old ARs, especially being from the same time period.

I recall from this site and have today read where the newer “Crowns” might be the ticket here, and for $299. I could get the 300watt entry-level model. But are the new Crown amps like their ancestors? Are they ‘grainy’ sounding? Is their sound quality more for ‘PA’ use, do they lack finesse? And above all else, will they handle my sometimes nut-job habit of blasting playback levels like I’m doing some strip-mining in the house?

Would the 300wpc. model be enough for the ravenous appetite of the AR-9s?

I like high power, it’s a necessity for precise and realistic musical playback, so maybe the next model up would do the trick with out the feeling that I’m lacking power?

Then there’s another somewhat affordable amplifier, and that’s the Adcom 555II. Or the Adcom 565 mono-blocks.

But, I’ve read that they have problems also with aged capacitors and other related things just like any other old crow.

I have an old mint B&K ST-202 here but, that is such a boring and unexciting amp and it lacks power and bass slam to an embarrassing degree.

Forgive my perhaps overly critical and negative feelings here, but these AR9s have not been in any way as thrilling and or as like-able as I hoped they would be.

I would hate to get rid of them, but that’s not an out of the question possibility, if they continue to push me around much longer.

fm

[Steve F]

You're going to get a lot of very passionate responses, so I'll keep mine brief:

1. Being used to the LST's 3a-era sound, you'll likely regard any other tonal approach to be "foreign"-sounding, too "modern," or just not what you're used to.

2. Without operational tweeters, you simply can't get a representative impression of your 9's actual sonic signature. Without the highs above 7kHz, the mids are going to sound overly-forward and disproportionate.

3. I power mine with a Parasound New Classic 2250, which is 385 RMS/ch into 4 ohms. Rock solid. I would not trust an Adcom 555 or 565 at all, as those are fast approaching 25-30 years old themselves and all manner of things have likely started to deteriorate. Nor would I go with the non-Class AB modern Crowns.

4. The 9 is, in fact, more "modern-sounding" than the LST, although it's "softer-edged" than, say, the NHT 3.3.

5. I had LST-2's, not LST's. I do currently have perfectly-restored 3a's and listen to them daily, but mostly for nostolgia's sake. The 9's are my 'go-to' speakers for critical listening.

6. Having followed your LST/PL adventures over the years, I was surprised that you even bought the 9's in the first place, and I feel you'll never like them as much as you like your stacked LST's.

Steve F.

[Joel]

Not to say that you wouldn't like the LST's better in any case, but:

Your AR9's are each missing a driver. Your crossover are still original and likely out of spec. You are driving them with an amp that probably had issues. You have them in a room that isn't set up for them acoustically.

Given all this, I think it is virtually impossible for you to even begin to know what the AR9's should sound like. The question is- is it worth your time and effort to find out? That is a question only you can answer, but I wouldn't judge the AR9's until you have heard them in their optimal conditions.

-Joel

[frankmarsi]

Steve, you’re no doubt correct regarding the no-tweeter thing having an affect on the over all balance, I just stupidly through that out there full well knowing.

And, no question about the ‘being-use-to-it’ thing. Being intensely familiar and attached to the LSTs is not easy to deny, especially over the course of a couple of decades. It must be first impressions are lasting ones.

New things take getting use to. The AR-LSTs have become a listening standard for me as they once were for the rest of the world many years ago.

The odd thing about that is, violins still sound like violins today much as they did many years ago, as do all instruments and voices, so that whole equation of old versus new has its credibility issues for me. Yes everything evolves, but some standards for me anyway are just that, standards, bench marks, almost final and constant in some areas. I question the consumer driven society we live in as the possible culprit in addition to the natural course of progress.

Then, we have the viewpoint that nothing is constant but change itself.

I honestly feel the medium had reached an apex in the seventies and everything thereafter has been a 2% or less improvement in any given area of itself.

I read on the net how some devout AR lovers drop everything when they’ve listened to the older and newer B&W 801. And I can imagine why, but I temper that notion with the guess that it’s only at best a 2 to 10% over all improvement in sound quality and degree of realism that is rendered.

Let’s us not forget the public’s ever changing tastes and perceptions, but I may just be a stick in the mud.

But, I wasn’t ready to blow an amp out with in merely a few hours of ‘time-in’ with these beasts. I worked hard on making sure that my re-foaming job was perfect, using 'Pledge', I rubbed those cabinets like it was a beautiful chic’s ass, well maybe not that well.

I’m still a dedicated vintage fool, check this amp out below, I bid, but have cold feet. It has the same circuitry that my two PL700IIs have. This circuitry was the key element and savior for most PL amps., before they were discontinued around ’81 or so.

My 700s run cool and only become as warm as the room they’re in may contribute to they’re own temps.

If the room is cool and with my variable low speed, low noise four inch fans, they run cool, even when pushed hard.

As the guy says at the gas station these days: “No problem, my friend”.

So, I’m at another impasse, and these 9s have been putting me into one predicament after another. I’m wondering if I brought it about myself by just thinking they would dissatisfy?

And speaking for myself, I wonder are they really worth their salt compared to my four LSTs.

And to think, I was going to place my third set of LSTs on top of the original four. My stands will support the weight,….no problem!

I thought of contacting state of Washington again and asking if he has any more 700s lying around?

To all, see the “Clair-Bros.” 700 link below.

My two amps, like I said, have been rebuilt to the same specifications, with the same circuitry. And should be able to handle the 9s? If they couldn’t then what da heck was AR thinking with these 9s?

Yeah, SteveF, I’m wondering what other 9 lovers will respond with? It won’t the first time I have mud on my face on this site.

In fact, I may change my name to: Dirty Frankie.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/321328377246?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

P.S. Touché Joel, but I explained those factors and possibilities existed, nonetheless you are correct!

Those factors and others all remain to be seen. And I really feel stupid talking about giving them up, especially at the price, condition and potential I understand they really have.

Actually I do feel that I’m being very unfair to our common choice of speakers, as I’ve been a dedicated lover of AR speakers since I first heard AR 4x’s in my dentist’s office way back in 1965, and then buying my first pair of AR-3as in 1972.

It’s common knowledge that as we get older, we are less accepting of change.

Maybe I’ll use a different name like “Doubting Thomas"?

P.S. Some interesting reading here from a few years ago: http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?showtopic=5192&hl=%2Bamplifiers+%2Btom+%2Btyson

P.S.II Even more intersting reading: http://mail.audiokarma.net/forums/showthread.php?t=358968

[frankmarsi]

3-6-14

I've been busy with the usual distracting mundane stuff lately but, I had a little playtime today.

So, I set-up the newly acquired AR-9s to run bi-amped with two PL400s. It sounds as if power is more accessible but because the speakers are not set-up properly, it's still difficult to actually hear and assess what these monoliths really sound like.

I will say that because of familiarity and an undying love, I'm so much more comfortable with the quality of sound the AR-LSTs produce!

Since the room still requires so much more work to actually be a listening room, I haven't mounted appropriate tweeters with-in the cabinets and decided to temporarily use the 'Mighty-Micro-Statics' while preliminary testing and room arrangement decisions are being contemplated. Also, I have a fear that if one of my amps blows because they haven't been used in a few years, there goes more tweeters, so my hesitation is warranted, believe me.

Admittedly, with these temporarily tweeters on top of the cabinets, the AR-9s do sound a little better, and I presume that's aided by using double amps.

One thing I've noticed is: every once in a while I hear a very slight almost crackling, popping low-level sound emanating from the speakers occasionally.

Now, I'm not certain if this sound is being caused by one of the amps, or perhaps a defective capacitor with-in the cross-over? Correct, I haven't replaced any caps yet, so club me to death.

Has anyone encountered such a sound coming out of a speaker due to a defective or an end of life capacitor?

Please don't mind the messy room but, here's a crappy snapshot of the early stages of amp and component placement and selection.

fm

P.S. Contrary to my usual stubbornness of retaining old PL400 amps, I started looking around at some of the recommended low cost possibilities.

Crown XLS2000 at:

375W/Channel @ 8 Ohms Stereo

650W/Channel @ 4 Ohms Stereo

Price is $499.00

or the:

QSC GX5 at:

500 watts/ch at 8 Ohms Stereo

700 watts/ch at 4 Ohms Stereo

Price is $399.00

The QSC seems to be sometimes recommended by individuals on this site and is a less expensive option, making it more attractive to me.

The questions are; what do these amps actually sound like? Are they mostly suited for P.A. and sound reinforcement use, or is their sound quality acceptable for quality listening? Or, are they merely a cost compromise and perhaps not at all musical sounding?

You know, this is very difficult for me as I've been using PL amps since 1974 and my affection for their sound quality and looks has kept me satisfied since.

But, at this stage of life, do I really want to mess around with antiques and the like. On the other hand, I'm never going to even think about other speakers!

I can report using a B&K ST-202 amplifier back in 1991 for a short time while my PL400 was out for repairs, and I used it again in 2004, for a short spell.

I was comparing it to the PL400, it had absolutely no-balls and a very reticent high-end and suffered from not enough power to handle AR-LSTs.

The PL400 had so much more bass-slam and ability to handle peaks with alacrity; the 202 didn't come close at all!

After about three weeks of using the 202 in 2004, which was just for comparison purposes, I was more than convinced that my affections were with the PL400 and I quickly removed the B&K and re-installed the PL400, which allowed a huge smile to suddenly reappear on my face. I was fully convinced that my PL400 was my choice, as it had always been.

Let us not forget the PL400 & PL700 were heralded in TAS. And admittedly, for their time and still today offer more than some others do if properly redone and maintained/repaired.

I hope that perhaps this is just a phase (no-pun) that I'm experiencing and that I will return with an equally overwhelming thrust to get back into-it!

** Some interesting reading regarding Pro-Amps being used for H-Fi: http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?134978-PRO-amp-VS-HI-FI-AMP..test.....

More: http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=302707

** Here run with the ball!........

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=+%27hi+fi+blind+test%27&gbv=2&oq=+%27hi+fi+blind+test%27&gs_l=heirloom-hp.12..0i22i30l2.1246.1246.0.4471.1.1.0.0.0.0.178.178.0j1.1.0....0...1ac.1.34.heirloom-hp..0.1.177.djCEwmP1TCs

 

[RoyC]

3-6-14

I haven't mounted appropriate tweeters with-in the cabinets and decided to temporarily use the 'Mighty-Micro-Statics'

Admittedly, with these temporarily tweeters on top of the cabinets, the AR-9s do sound a little better, and I presume that's aided by using double amps.

One thing I've noticed is: every once in a while I hear a very slight almost crackling, popping low-level sound emanating from the speakers occasionally.

Now, I'm not certain if this sound is being caused by one of the amps, or perhaps a defective capacitor with-in the cross-over?

Frank,

-There is absolutely no way you can evaluate the sound of your AR-9's without appropriate tweeters installed in the cabinets! Using "double amps" has little to do with the quality of what you are, or are not, hearing.

-The distortion you describe is not due to a cap. It sounds like you are overdriving at least one of the drivers, or (less likely) there is an issue with one or more of your re-foamed drivers.

-Concern with what amp to purchase is really putting the cart before the horse. It is not likely the amplifier you choose will be the deciding factor regarding your opnion of AR-9's...especially AR-9's that are not functioning properly.

Roy

[frankmarsi]

3-18-14 3 P.M. EST

RoyC., first of all: Ouch!

I still love you though, even though you are more productive than I am.

You must understand though I try very much to imitate a giant sea lion's ways of lying around basically lumbering and slowly sliding about.

This web quote is pasted here for all of the AR speaker owners who power their speakers with Phase Linear amplifiers.

Date Reviewed: May 18, 2012

Bottom Line:

I originally owned a Phase Linear 400 when I was in college, back in the early 1970's. In the day it was a wonderful sounding amp with tons of power and was affordable. The problem was that the amp was very unstable, and mine would blow, taking my speakers with it. This happened on so many occasions, I finally traded the amp for a Luxman M-2000. About a year ago, I found that there had been a lot of wok going on refining the Phase Linear amplifier line. White Oak Audio had SPICE modeled the amplifier and had discovered many of the original design problems which made the amp unstable, and had created a new PCB driver board which addressed the problems with the design. Another individual had designed a DC protection circuit which turned the amp off if it sensed any DC current in the output signal of the amp. Also there had been a new LED light board for the meters developed and a new kit for replacing the storage capacitors with three times the storage capacity. With all these improvements, the Phase Linear 400 (as well as the 700, 700B and all Phase Linear amps using PL14-20 PCB boards) were back in my sights. This amp lives again! And it is not the same amp you might remember. The frequency response is now ruler flat to below 20 hz, and to abover 40 khz. Distortion is lower than the original amp. I think it could compete with any amplifier on the market today. The new production driver and output transistors recommended for this amp, combined with the new PCB now give this amp the ability to produce about 550 watts RMS into an 8 ohm load. I see a resurgance of popularity and renewed interest in this venerable old road warrior. With all the fixes incorporated into the newly designed parts, I think this amp is ready for another 40 years of producing music. Over the years I have owned many different brands of amplifiers, most of them come and go, but this amplifier has been reborn. If you want a powerhouse of an amp, cloaked in a vintage wrapper, this is the amp for you. If you need more than 500 watts you might want to consider the Phase Linear 700B. This amp is now capable of producing over 1,000 very clean and thunderous watts. My rack now houses two Phase Linear 700B and four Phase Linear 400 Series I amplifiers.I can listen in stereo, or 7.1. These amps are hard to beat. I could use all the audio phrases to describe the sound of these amps, but suffice it to say they sound GREAT. It is not the same amp I owned in the 70's. read less

Expand full review >>

http://www.audioreview.com/cat/amplification/amplifiers/phase-linear/400/prd_116073_1583crx.aspx

O.K. Let's get back to me, after all, it's only about me and my speakers and my speakers and me!

What, what members here are different? How so? Let's not get into that!

Well as fate would have it, sometimes I do ‘get-lucky’!

In two separate auctions I scored four #200029-1 AR tweeters at $62.50 each. This price is what Abtech charges for each of their AR3a tweeter remakes.

I sit here with a shit-eaten grin on my face and I know that all members here would be happy for me? You all are happy for me, aren’t you?

I now have the correct tweeters for my newly purchased AR-9 speakers and that I have emergency back-ups in the event if I burn two out?

All I need to do is replace the capacitors, which I will do as soon as I can. But, being still newly retired, I tend to take my sweet time more these days. Gee, after over 47+ years on the work force, I deserve it! Don't hate me for being that way, that would be 'elderly-abuse', or cruelity to animals.

In other news: In my little mind, I’m considering purchasing either the Crown 2000 amplifier or the QSC amp, but like ‘humpty-dumpty’ I’m on the fence still.

My fears are that these two newer amps may sound too clinical or antiseptic so to speak, which may be ‘un-musical’ sounding (to me) when all is said and done.

Please all of you owners of said amps, don't get your panties into a bunch, please. Be nice, after all I do own many AR speakers and if nothing else, you could endulge me in that respect!

As the above mention web-quote gleefully explains; the Phase Linear amps do have a strong potential to refurbish them to display their glorious shining armor another day for me.

Correct to say, the money to have the necessary work done by an experienced individual along with shipping would probably exceed the cost of buying the afore mentioned new amps, but I may have my reasons.

One reason is I like the look of my ‘elder’ amps as they so look so much the part they play, especially if you're a 'baby-boomer' like myself and have played with electronic stuff since puberty and always wanted one of those huge "Crown" 10 inch tape recorders from the late sixties, early '70s.

Two, I really enjoy looking at those big output meter faces, even though on the PL400 series 1 these meters are so wildly inaccurate and only give a slight indication of what the amp is actually doing. However, I do not prefer guessing what an amp is doing by not giving any indication at all besides an occasional flashing LED warning light, which is the size of a pinhead from 10 feet away.

Another reason is during the first part of this new century, I had purchased five running PL400 amps to join my first, which I purchased new in 1974, much later in 2009 buying two PL700II as stable mates.

In addition to the seven amps, I bought the dedicated rear fan shrouds, which are no longer available anywhere unless you might find one on the auction site and then they are usually and unnecessarily over-priced. I also have many four inch quality AC cooling fans with dedicated wiring which also took a little time to seek the remaining few suppliers that still carried them. I later purchased a number of variable speed controllers to operate the fans.

All these items and the untiring search to get just the correct items was and still is part of the fun this hobby and the pursuit of items it entails, is much to my pleasure in doing.

As I become older, I'll probably just want to listen and not tinker, who knows?

I realize that some members on this site use these ‘newer’ amps, but my typical web-scouring has alerted me to some of the possible pitfalls of using these newer manufactured amps. One of which was their sound quality, which overall has not really been described very much except for a few small paragraphs on different and various sites. This has put a note of fear in me, as I’m not so sure if I want a newer amp’s ability to make music sound like music according to some of these conflicting reviews. Consider how lately in some circles people are condemning early CD quality when all the while and especially for the past 30 years most peeps sheepishly went along to embrace it when it was new and now for the past decade vinyl is back and growing widely. Thankfully, my main system is able to distinguish many of these differences quite readily.

The theory that all amplifiers sound the same is incorrect to me given the minor degree of knowledge I have, but instead I would pit other’s opinions against my own experiences of listening through out all these years.

What I mean is, I easily learned the differences between my Dynaco ST-35 tube amp compared to at the time, in 1972 the new Dynaco ST-120 transistor amp which I built in kit form, rebuilding it several times because it made me. And I rebuilt my Dynaco PAS-3x twice and although, it has a wonderfully natural sound quality of its own, it’s still ‘hissy’ as hell coupled with major switch noise, although there’s a guy out there who offers a retro-kit.

Combining that learned experience along with the major differences between a PL400 and those Dynaco amps there were even more differences compared to a B&K 202 amp, which brought in me older terms that aren’t used too often these days, such as head-room, neutrality, bass-slam, transparency, texture (none of which the B&K amp had), and other terms that were once used in many reviews in the ‘Golden-Age’ of Hi-Fi. Which by the way is where I enjoyed mostly all of my experiences first hand. Yes, I understand that it’s a new day but, so-what!

Nonetheless, I feel that the older PL amps, except for a possible degree of fragility, etc. due to age and their circuit architecture have a smoother and more musical sound to them contrary to what is mentioned by some detractors. This is ironic due to the amp’s almost primitive early design choices.

Today, much as, back in the day when the world was making the transition from tube to transistor, ultimate sound-quality was always a major consideration for me.

As time went on and proved that transistors were able to sound ‘musical’, that with proper design basis, they could actually in a way emulate a warm tube sound, the benefits of transistors took flight. If one roams through T_S & Stereo-goma-pile magazine, many new but expensive transistor designs are almost impossible to beat. In terms of ruggedness I believe the QSC and Crown amps may be just that. It’s their sound quality I question. In the 'Golden-Age', Crown had a reputation of sounding 'transistor-like', even compared to a PL. And who is this QSC, are they related to Crown? Where'd they pop out of? I need to know!

Driving the point home, I’ve learned the obvious differences between a LOMC cartridge as compared to mostly all moving-magnet cartridges. The differences of a low priced interconnect compared to a mid-priced one or higher. An entry-level turntable compared to a better performing one, or more. Most of all, the differences of AR speakers compared to other speakers.

Why are we here, and what is reality? It's clear that I too am a AR fanatic. Maybe not as well heeled as some peeps here, and I agree merely owning is not considered being a entry ticket to speaking expertly as generally is the case here, but I can stand my ground.

So, where do I stand in regards about my amps?

Like I said and it has been proven, old PL amps can sound more natural (they always have to me), and can be refurbished to a higher degree of dependability and usefulness.

Ultimately, what I elect to do is anyone’s guess!

fm

P.S. Where do I stand with my feelings about the AR-9s? You say, no one is asking?

Well, I haven’t provided good living arrangements for them as their new room isn’t ready yet and niether am I but, I do have some early personal indicators. Some of which are obvious and regardless of design parameters. They may never sound like the sound of the stacked AR-LSTs, so will I enjoy their ability to reproduce music as the AR-LSTs do, which is something that I’ve grown more than accustomed to? Hint: I feel the LSTs are nearly perfect! Gee! Didn’t AR’s designers and most of the world think that way back in the day? What are we doing here with our pants down?

Do I enjoy the AR-9’s seemingly ‘in-your-face’ midrange projection, can I listen to music with their directional mids somewhat blaring at me? I also realize the room and their placement is really all that stands in their/my way of the strong probability of shutting me up once and for all, I may become a LST turn-coat yet? I know, it's subjective, I'm playing around. I must admit privately that I feel more 'AR-ish' strong knowing I have a pair just waiting for my carcass to bust a move. They've eluded me until I brought them home, now I am their master!

Do I enjoy the AR-LST’s ability to project sound with a ‘multi-layered’, multi-dimensional effect along with a high degree of ‘sound-staging’ and impact?

Do the AR-9s ‘image’ too strongly?

Of course I do make allowances but, as my memory of experiencing music in sound halls and concerts and such has taught me that musical reproduction not only is directly absorbed by the ear straight-on but, is also absorbed and perceived by ‘bounced’ and reflected sound, this is academic.

So, just as ignorance can be blissful, that is where I’ll remain as I enjoy figuring out and flirting with this whole situation. I mean after all, if my systems were complete and finished, besides the actual listening to music, what fun would I have in playing with all this stuff? And although used record finding is taking almost as much time as actually playing the damn vinyl, this is how it goes for me. I do try and usually succeed in playing my main system everyday for any length of time. In fact right now: I’m listening to a 10inch tape I made in 1990 on the wonderful Revox A77Mk4, and as anyone whose experienced a quality tape playback, there is not much else, regardless of popular formats that have been devised that come close to the quality of two track tape. And although these were taped by simply using a Shure Type III cartridge, tape just has that sense of naturalness/realness about it that’s hard to beat.

It can be said, that much like keeping company with an intelligent, bright and beautiful woman, my music systems will always keep me guessing and keep me on my toes just as I’d do with her, if you catch my drift?

fm

[JKent]

I easily learned the differences between my Dynaco ST-35 tube amp compared to at the time, in 1972 the new Dynaco ST-120 transistor amp which I built in kit form,

Ha! Were we separated at birth? My first "hi-fi" was a kit-built Dynaco ST-35, a KLH Model Eighteen tuner (it had variable output so no need for a preamp) and a pair of headphones. I was an impoverished college student at the time. When I graduated and got a job I added an AR turntable and a pair of AR-4x speakers. Then, maybe it was '72, I decided to "upgrade" from the lowly 17wpc tube amp to the "better" Dynaco ST-120 (again, kit-built). I guess lots of us did that.

A walk down memory lane.

-Kent

[frankmarsi]

Kent, I believe you've exposed a certain dynamic here!

Maybe this is all something relating to other forces for me, like: I never really did grow up, I only aged like nice piece of cheese becoming more smelly with each passing decade?

Maybe this is my post 60 year older reassessment that nothing has really changed for me and I’m struggling to get it out, whatever ‘it’ is?

I’m stuck in a mental rut?

I can’t afford anything else and choose to stay with all things that I am familiar with?

Life has and is passing me by and I don’t give two turds, cause I just wanna be me?

I occupy a time warp that only I am not aware of?

That perhaps dabbling and dilly-dallying has become a way of life for me?

Or, perhaps I’m just so damn anal about most things and so over-all screwed up and I can’t change because I choose not too.

That maybe I’ve been wrong about everything and refuse to see clearly?

I presume I’m no different than anybody else and simply enjoy playing with the speakers I fell in love with over forty two years ago.

You know there oughta be an assisted–living facility or holding pen where we’re all end up in, maybe someplace upstate where youngins won’t have to deal with us types?

Or, ….. or we’re just so privileged that no one else could ever be so lucky and self-content with their pass time indulgences?

I’m gonna opt for the last mention as this is likely really the case, even though I dumbly can shamelessly lay claim to some of the above mentioned ones also, inwardly I’m happy and grateful for what I have.

Maybe a nice blend of all, or just a supporter, and not the kind you wear, of the lost land of “AR”? I kinda feel I’m actually on ‘Planet-AR’, and I may set-up a website and call it that, so don’t go getting any ideas as I have the copy right already wise guy! Doesn’t MF at Statusphile use something similar for his site?

A place where time has stopped and the world has moved on and forgotten?

Uh-Oh! That last one has a catch to it.

I better go and put on another record on and wipe it with my schicky and not corrupt you innocents with my malarkey!

fm

P.S. Actually, I first built the little Dyna PAS-3x in very early 1968. By the time I was in the USN, late ‘68, I asked a non-com who was a very smart electronics guy to check all the solder joints and put it on a scope to check everything out. He did and found only a few cold-joints and said it was the poor quality slide switches that comprised it’s performance. Other than that it was just good basic quality design.

When I was discharged and back home, I rebuilt it a second time and was very satisfied with the results, I still have it, even made a nice wood case for it back then. Ya see RoyC. I used to be very motivated. Shortly after, I bought the AR-3as in '72 and have been with them ever since, maybe that’s it? Haven’t used that pre-amp since mid1974. I almost miss it and I clearly remember what it sounds like, I loved it, still do as it’ll go toe to toe with many other quality pieces out there. They should have never gone under, a really good maker of affordable and quality gear, resulting in more dollar value to the consumer, not like today’s market.

Other than the big ticket pricey equipment, a commoners choices are very limited these days.

That’s it Kent! Eureka! I refuse to give in, that’s my M.O.!

fm

[ra.ra]

Just gotta admit that I built a Dynaco FM-5 tuner as a teen, and I still have a ST-120 amp squirreled away somewhere in its original blue-white box. Frank's comments reminded me of a comic strip that runs in the Boston Globe that often amuses me called Adam@Home - - here are the two most recent days.

[frankmarsi]

Just gotta admit that I built a Dynaco FM-5 tuner as a teen, and I still have a ST-120 amp squirreled away somewhere in its original blue-white box. Frank's comments reminded me of a comic strip that runs in the Boston Globe that often amuses me called Adam@Home - - here are the two most recent days.

adam at home.jpg

ra.ra. very good, you hit the nail on the head.

You know, I really did want that tuner and the FM-3 too, but I was scared off by the fact of alignment, which I read wasn't easy to do, even though Dyna made it basically the opposite I presume for it's buyers.

I settled for an "Electro-Voice" tuner and I installed a proper outdoor roof antenna and flat brown wire. I came home from class one day after a severe lighting storm and it was fried along with my PL4000 pre-amp, which strangely enough PL fixed as part of the warrantee for free. That's good ole Bob C. for you. Anyone see his new speaker ad in Statusphile this month, yeah he's one of us.

fm

[ar_pro]

I built a Dyna Stereo 120 that literally blew up while being driven by a Crown IC-150 preamplifier into a pair of AR-3a systems - there were actual sparks & smoke.

The 120 was not Dynaco's finest hour.

I think it's probably unfair to compare the current crop of Crown commercial, DJ-type amplifiers with the ones produced for home use in the '70s-'90s.

Granted, most of those designs were either straight-up versions of their commercial amps, or slightly housebroken variants that didn't look as if they'd been stolen from some radio station's rack; but to the best of my knowledge, they were (nearly) all provided with adequate heat-sinks, and fans were not required to reach spec.

Crown earned a solid reputation for reliability & performance with those products, but does the current crop merit that rep?

Anyway, how in the world have you not ever used a big McIntosh solid-state amplifier with your hard-to-drive LST systems?

If you're going vintage, before pulling the trigger on another Phase Linear, take a look at one of these older Macs (note: they will ALL output their rated power into a 1-ohm load all day long):

MC2205

MC2255

MC7270

[frankmarsi]

4-3-14 Email sent to some friends today.

Interesting comments on rock on this web page, link is below.

Especially read the comments on the Beatles and Led Zeppelin. The poster mentions Sergeant Pepper's making major changes in rock music and is a bench mark overall.

I tend to agree.

I frequently listen to a Brookdale, NJ public FM radio station out here in central Jersey. Although the station is really good most times and plays mostly new 'rock-ish' music laced with some select classic-rock stuff, the new stuff is in question for me.

I do enjoy a lot of the new stuff, but I feel as though I may be betraying my music tastes and history.

I was there during the period of the early to mid-fifties as a kid, I played current rock in the mid to late sixties in bands and never stopped listening to all types of music ever since. As my reference, I had been exposed and taught about classical music by family members. My eldest sister taught me how to listen to classical musiic, early rock taught by my middle sisters, and opera music from my father, I even have all of his original 78s of Caruso from the early 1930s.

I personally enjoy diverse tastes in music and utilize a top of the line vintage music system to play it on. I generally play music everyday, always have, through out my entire life.

Alot of the new stuff/music sounds like shades of early Dylan and where music was back in the early mid sixties, however the newer music also is infused with some country overtones, which makes me wonder.

I'm thinking modern rock type music isn't and perhaps can't break out of the mold formed in 'Rock&Roll' and 50+ years ago in 'Rock' from 1965 to 1990 or so.

The looming question might be posed: will there ever be an acceptably progressive modern day rock for me, or will all rock-music simply go on being repetitive and never really progress any further?

Are we to rely upon the rock-classics in terms of giving pleasure, cause the way I see it, present rock is not moving ahead in an acceptable way for individuals who know the older music.

I guess if cars can still have four wheels and it's light during the day and dark at night, some things may always be constant and need not ever change?

Your comments are welcome. "Excuse me while I kiss the sky."

fm

From: FRANK MARSI

Sent: Thursday, April 3, 2014 6:09 PM

Subject: Interesting comments on Rock...................

http://www.amazon.com/Led-Zeppelin/forum/Fx1UOB6GSPMH6DD/Tx1GXA3FI9INQW3/1/ref=cm_cd_dp_tp_cq?_encoding=UTF8&asin=B000VLE3IS&cdSort=oldest#Mx2BGFJJDCOQ7Z2

O.K. Lets get back to my new AR-9s.

I've noticed that there is an apparently strong midrange presence, more so than from my AR-LSTs. But, on occasion there is an overt sibilance on certain 'S' words with all input sources.

I haven't changed out the capacitors yet, but have elected to listen in an ill-prepared room and simply allowing things sort of grow on me.

I'm questioning might it be the old caps that are causing this occasionally over-done S problem? It happens both with CD and Vinyl but, not with 'FM' radio.

I will say that the AR-9s are seemingly very revealing with a definite separation from mids to low frequencies, but still, at times an overly prominent midrange.

In regards to my problems mentioned in an earlier post; it was an old and possibly out of condition CD player I was using in my early tests. It was no doubt giving off some strange sounding spurious digital noises, that at times were actually scary and made thnk my amps were going astray.

RoyC. It was not an incorrectly done job redoing the foam-surrounds causing these strange sounds as was mentioned. I have to say, I pride myself on my re-foaming skills as I love loudspeakers, and have since I can remember as a child, especially ARs and would never slight the speaker nor myself in that way.

I've been running in a 'bi-amp' mode with two vintage Phase Linear PL400 amps.

Both amps a loafing along and never seem to break a sweat in this configuration, even at moderately loud levels.

Once I clear out the newly dedicated room in which the AR-9s are now vacationing, I will post more of my findings.

I may even change out dem-der pesky capacitors before long.

Below is system number two testing front-end.

fm