CYNR Posted October 18, 2020 Report Share Posted October 18, 2020 Hello good people: My CB-10's are the biggest woofer I am running right now (along with baby advents and AR 102's both with 6.5" woofers) but feel I need a little more bottom end bass , and after scouring ebay and other auction sites I see I can buy all the drivers I need to piece together a decent KLH system, model 5 12" woofers mids tweets and crossovers cheaper than a complete speaker set.. DO any of these companies (AR Advent KLH etc.) make a stand alone sub??) What makes these speakers so good ?? the drivers the boxes etc, I should be able to make a exact copy of a speaker box and if I use factory drivers and crossovers would it not sound the same? What are you guys (girls) doing for more bottom end? Lonny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKent Posted October 19, 2020 Report Share Posted October 19, 2020 Although I've never heard the KLH CB-10s I would think their 10" woofers would provide plenty of bass. And although I really like the KLH Fives and am really looking forward to seeing your custom cabinets, I doubt they will provide much more bass. And yes--if you use the KLH Model Five drivers and crossover, and build exact copies of the cabinets and use the same amount of fiberglass stuffing they should sound the same. AR did make the 1-W, which would be a standalone sub but those are pretty rare and expensive. I have a kit-built VMPS sub from the '80s that I use in my home theater. 12" driver and 15" passive radiator in a big box. Pretty earth-shaking. I used to run it with an electronic crossover and a bridged amp but later added a plate amp from Apex Jr to save space. You're obviously into cabinet building. You could go to apexjr.com and scope out the woofers he has for sale. On this page http://www.apexjr.com/speakerstuff.html he has a Cerwin Vega 12" woofer along with suggestions on cabinet size and a plate amp. Parts would run you about $80 plus your cabinet. Or check out Parts Express. They have lots of subwoofer drivers and parts. Here's an 18" "starter" kit https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-18-ultimax-subwoofer-and-starter-enclosure-package--300-7028 There are MANY modern subs that could work. This one is good and quite reasonable https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000092TT0?tag=aboutcom02lifewire-20&linkCode=ogi&th=1&psc=1&ascsubtag=4066815|naaeee42341ea4ce69172a29276a4b84419 or a step up: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00NVPMJNC?tag=aboutcom02lifewire-20&linkCode=ogi&th=1&ascsubtag=4066815|naaeee42341ea4ce69172a29276a4b84419 or...... there are many out there. Kent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CYNR Posted October 19, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2020 Hello Kent: I was not aware of the AR-1w, but after reading this http://acousticresearchspeakers.net/2016/10/acoustic-research-ar-1w-loudspeaker-single-lacquered-walnut-finish-sn-09697-2/ It gave lots of technical numbers for the speaker and the box, I like it. IT gives me another way to go , I'm looking for a winter project (we already have 4-5 inches of snow). Being in northern B.C. Can. KLH fives are hard to find, and if you do find one(two) they are $800-$1000 pr. I've priced out KLH 5 woofers, mids, tweets and crossovers and I could build one (two)for far less. The Dayton kits look interesting in a 15" or 18" I saw an ad for the AR 1w $2500 a pair WoW. I'll keep posting my progress.. Lonny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CYNR Posted October 23, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2020 Hello All: After reading a lot about the AR-1W I have come to the conclusion that I need them (but not for a $1000+). I have my KLH 5 woofers and crossovers being shipped as of yesterday . All the reading I did on the AR-1W and KLH 5 I found the boxes to be very close in size, 130 cubic inches (2.1l ) difference to be exact, So I decided to replicate the AR-1W boxes with the KLH 5 12" woofers and some form of crossover/lowpass circuit ( the AR-1W was low passed at 600-650 hz) I should have my wood cut (3/4" oak to match everything else) before my woofers get here pictures will follow... Lonny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ligs Posted October 23, 2020 Report Share Posted October 23, 2020 I also experimented with DIY woofers to add extended bass to my smaller main speakers. I had played with AR 3a woofer(essentially equivalent to AR1W) and more recently NHT 1259(used in NHT 3.1) and finally Dayton RSS380 HF4. Theoretically the NHT and Dayton will have lower resonant frequencies( below 40 hz) and more output capacity than the AR woofer. . https://community.classicspeakerpages.net/topic/10520-dayton-rss-390-hf4-and-nht-1259-subwoofers-relative-frequency-response-in-a-room-searching-for-20-hz-deep-bass/ My experience has been positive and would like hear about your adventure. George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKent Posted October 23, 2020 Report Share Posted October 23, 2020 8 hours ago, CYNR said: I should have my wood cut (3/4" oak to match everything else) before my woofers get here pictures will follow... Looking forward to that! I do like solid oak cabinets. The surrounds in my home theater include Cizek HTA (rear) Cambridge Soundworks Ambiance (side) and home-built Hi-Vi 3" full-range (front high) speakers. All solid (not veneered) oak. I may covet your subwoofer Kent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CYNR Posted October 23, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2020 What have I got myself into, woodworking and MATH! two of my least favorite subjects, but I am a details guy so I know the results will be exactly what I am looking for. It's snowing here again so just about time to turn the heat on in the shop and get to work. Ligs I read your other post and I have a question for you or anyone, is there a formula to figure out how much fill to use in each box?? more to come... Lonny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKent Posted October 23, 2020 Report Share Posted October 23, 2020 13 minutes ago, CYNR said: is there a formula to figure out how much fill to use in each box?? I'd use the AR-3a as a starting point. This is a quote from the Restoration Guide: "The early Alnico-woofer AR-3a requires 28–30 oz. of yellow fiberglass. The late ceramic woofer models require 20 oz. of fiberglass. AR did not use polyester stuffing in the AR-3a; it will not provide the required low system resonance, fC". I looked through my notes on KLH Five restoration but did not find any info on the amount of stuffing. So maybe start with 20 oz of fiberglass and see how it sounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CYNR Posted October 23, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2020 Thanks Kent, The AR3a box is verrrry close to the AR1w box and mine will be the same dimensions as the AR1. I read that the AR1w box " was filled with fiberglass" but no numbers ? So now I have a number to start with. I have not read all of the AR3a Restoration guide but will .. Lonny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ligs Posted October 23, 2020 Report Share Posted October 23, 2020 6 hours ago, CYNR said: I have a question for you or anyone, is there a formula to figure out how much fill to use in each box?? more to come... Lonny The general rule is about 1 lb fiberfill for each cubic ft volume. If there is a specific recommendation for a specific woofer then use that as a starting point. George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CYNR Posted October 30, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2020 Hello Speaker freaks: I received my KLH 5 woofers (and xo's) today, checked the VC's 4.1 ohms ,frequency sweep from 0 to 1000 sounded smooth . These speakers look new except for the sloppy re soldering job. These cones are the thickest and stiffest material I've seen. Looks like the cloth surround's and dust caps need to be resealed . Ok now for the questions, the speakers came with 5 Mf 15v caps soldered across the + - terminals, as I am not using the KLH 5 crossovers should I keep them or remove them ??? I will be using off the shelf lowpass filters 350 hz 12 dB slope. I had to drop my wood at a cabinet maker to get cut because I don't have the tools or room to cut a 4x8 sheet down, I should be able to pick it up next week. Till next time... Lonny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ligs Posted October 30, 2020 Report Share Posted October 30, 2020 I would remove the 15 v caps, since you plan to use your own filters. BTW, from the KLH 5 crossover schematic, I did not see any 5 Mf 15V capacitor connected in the woofer circuit. Usually when a cap is used in a speaker crossover, the voltage rating is typically 50v or higher. George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CYNR Posted October 30, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2020 Thanks ligs: The cap looks too new to be factory so they might have been added by the previous owner. Lonny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKent Posted October 30, 2020 Report Share Posted October 30, 2020 15V is not appropriate. The caps in the original Model Five were 25uF, 16uF, 3x4uF, 3uF. All were 50VDC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CYNR Posted November 22, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 22, 2020 Hello good people: I am making progress on this project now that I have (almost) everything in hand, there are no before pictures of the speakers because all they were was a pile of plywood pieces not photo worthy. A picture of the KLH model 5 woofers with the new low pass filters and spring terminals from my baby Advent II tune up. The cabs were made of 3/4 inch Baltic birch because the available oak was crappy looking, so Baltic birch with 3 coats of golden oak stain. I sent the baffles back to the carpenter to have the rabbet joint cut around the hole for the speaker inset. not much else I can do until I get the baffles back . I have ordered surround sealer from Vintage AR as mine look to be very porous, judging by the flashlight behind the speaker test.. Tomorrow some waxing and buffing and maybe install the lowpass filters and terminal cups.. Lonny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aadams Posted November 22, 2020 Report Share Posted November 22, 2020 On 10/29/2020 at 11:04 PM, CYNR said: using off the shelf lowpass filters 350 hz 12 dB slope. Have you considered wiring the filter externally? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ligs Posted November 22, 2020 Report Share Posted November 22, 2020 Wiring the filter externally is an excellent idea if you want experimentations. BTW, golden oak stain on Baltic Birch looks very nice. I ought to try that. George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CYNR Posted November 22, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 22, 2020 Hey Guys: Thanks for the tip about the XO's, I am planning on mounting them inside but will have access to them if they need tweaking. The gold oak on birch looks great when it is still wet, but dulls a little while drying so today I will try furniture wax and elbow grease. I still have to get the pink insulation stuffing and 1/4" hardboard for the grills, the grill fabric is in the mail and is coffee colored to match the CB-10's and baby Advent's. I am still waiting on a backordered amplifier (200 wpc 8Ohms)to power the AR's KLH's and Advents then these woofers will get the Peavey IPS150 75 wpc. Lonny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CYNR Posted November 22, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 22, 2020 Hey all: got the crossovers and terminals installed today along with a few hours of wax on wax off they are really starting to shine now. i should get the baffles back on Tuesday to complete this project. Lonny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CYNR Posted November 26, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 26, 2020 Finally, got my baffles back, never tell a worker "No Hurries". Installed 24 oz. of pink insulation as per Ligs and kent's recommendations ( averaged ) got the grills cut out but am still waiting for the cloth to cover them . don't have time today to hook them up . Lonny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CYNR Posted December 1, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2020 Hello all: I hooked these up and was not disappointed with results, I have no scientific way of measuring them, just my ears and brain, and my brain said wow! Once I get the surrounds doped they should get better according to most everyone on here. Now my dilemma these are too nice to just be subs, so I am bidding on some model 23 tweeters to finish this build and turn them into replica 23's (for the basement) but I need a little info, measurement's to cut the tweeter holes (top to middle of tweeter and side to middle) and numbers (milihenry's) for the inductors, I have the numbers for the resistors and cap along with a diagram So any "23" owners out there please feed my addiction.. Lonny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CYNR Posted December 12, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2020 Hello All, I carried this thread over to AudioKarma https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/klh-model-23-dimensions.939140/ But am still in search of Model 23 tweeters to finish this build.. Lonny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dxho Posted December 12, 2020 Report Share Posted December 12, 2020 If you weren't aware, Model Five and Twelve tweeters are equivalent. Model Six, Seventeen, Twenty, Thirty, and Thirty Three will fit, but they have different voicing. I haven't compared the two variations side-by-side, so I don't know how much difference there is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CYNR Posted December 13, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2020 Thanks dxho, I am aware of these other tweeters I could use, when I say I'm looking for model 23 tweeters I am looking at all options just none have come up for sale yet ,That is why I went with a phenolic tweeter until I find the correct tweeters, I am still waiting on my crossover parts to build the 23 crossovers..... https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/klh-model-23-dimensions.939140/page-2 Lonny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CYNR Posted January 11, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2021 i got my crossovers finished and switches installed but still looking for Model 23 (or equal) tweeters to finish off this build. Lonny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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