AR11 Advice

[powerglide]

Hi there, 

fairly new to the AR scene a set of 2ax's the only pair I had the pleasure of owning or even listening too. 

Ive been on the the hunt for some 3a's to restore but they are few and far between over here. Some 11's have surfaced for a reasonable amount, what do people think of these being a step up from the 2ax's. I can't seem to find any real praise on this model, is it just because people are comparing them to the 3's ? 

I not looking at replacing the 2ax's, just want to refurb a set of 12" and want opinions on the 11's. I have mentioned the 2ax's as these are my only reference 

thanks Powerglide

[Aadams]

1 hour ago, powerglide said:

Some 11's have surfaced for a reasonable amount, what do people think of these being a step up from the 2ax's. I can't seem to find any real praise on this model, is it just because people are comparing them to the 3's ? 

Elevens are a fine speaker.  The only downside, if you could call it one, is the mid has a toggle switch instead of a pot or LPAD.  It is the same mid faceplate as the late 3a, max dispersion and very potent when unattenuated. I use an equalizer so it would not bother me.

 

Adams

[powerglide]

Thanks Adams, 

The crossover looks a little more complex than that of the 2ax's but not OTT hard to tackle? generally in this model do the caps require changing, haven't been inside but thinking they are circa 78. 

Reading between the lines on what you have said the bass drivers are equal to the 3's and being 12" should push a little more air around than my 2's so .......... in theory they should have the same signature but a bit more oomph and lower bass? 

Have not installed my new tweeters yet, have everything on standby waiting for full covid lockdown. 

[powerglide]

My other issue with the 11's is they are 4ohm, my mainstay amp is locked at 8ohm. 

Any one have any real concerns with this? , ie blowing my amp if push hard for a long period. 

[Aadams]

8 minutes ago, powerglide said:

My other issue with the 11's is they are 4ohm, my mainstay amp is locked at 8ohm. 

Any one have any real concerns with this? , ie blowing my amp if push hard for a long period. 

You would face the same issue with the 3a.  The 11 is on the same level as the 3a with regard to the 2ax. The concern with the amp is it could damage the speaker if it can't drive 4 ohms at normal listening levels or its protection circuitry would frequently interrupt or the speaker could damage the amp.  I wouldn't try to find out which.  You may have a 4ohm/8ohm switch.

Adams

 

[powerglide]

Crickey, I never looked at the Ohms of the 3's rats! 

I have other Amps that with drive them but none as nice as my AU-D11 

http://www.sansui.us/AU-D11.htm

http://www.sansui.us/PGMP_AUD11.htm

[Aadams]

1 hour ago, powerglide said:

. in theory they should have the same signature but a bit more oomph and lower bass? 

If the drivers are original and operating correctly the bass is the most immediately noticeable difference but the mid range crossing at 525hz is better as well.  OTOH, in a sweet spot, the 2ax and 11, positioned identically, with the right program materiel, could be made to sound very similar, which should be no surprise because it was an AR goal.   

RE the caps.  If the AR11s have Spraque Compulytics I would not bother changing them unless there was something audible after listening.   Compulytics are notorious for remaining in spec.

[powerglide]

Thanks so much for your info Adams, unfortunately the seller is after a bulk purchase, I've offered a fair price for the 11's but his waiting it out and not too keen to split. 

Fingers XXX

[ar_pro]

The series II version of the Sansui AU-D11 had a speaker impedance selector switch on the rear panel, that optimized performance for different loads.

On the rear panel of your amplifier, the impedance range indicated for the A or B speaker connection appears to be from 4 to 16 ohms, which should mean that you'd be OK running a single pair of 4 ohm systems like the AR-3a or AR-11. Check out the closeup photo attached, and compare it against your own amp to be sure.

The AR-2ax punched well above its weight class, as they say, and its great performance was arguably the reason - and there's been lots of discussion of this topic - that the more expensive AR-5 was less of a sales success than AR had hoped for.

That said, in a properly-sized room, the midrange performance and LF extension of either the AR-3a or AR-11 should set them apart from the AR-2ax.

[JKent]

I'm working on some 11s now: 

Waiting for some wood for the grilles.... it's a long story.

I replaced all the caps. In addition to the metal cans (not Sprague) there were some of the notorious black and red Callins.

The 11 "should" be a modern copy of the 3a but the lack of pots (or L-pads) is an issue, as Aadams mentioned above. I consulted Roy on these and he said the 11s don't sound quite as good as the 3a--more forward in the midrange--because of this limitation on adjusting the midrange and the stronger tweeter (I'm paraphrasing). I have a lead on another pair of 11s and will build different crossovers, probably based on the 3a Limiteds.

Larrybody did essentially the same thing by putting AR-91 crossovers in AR-58s's *

But back to your original question, the AR-2ax are outstanding AR speakers. I sold mine when I got some 3a's and there is VERY little "better" about the 3a. They go just a bit lower but how often do you listen to music containing 20Hz notes? And the 3a (and 11) are power hungry. You need lots of clean 4 ohm power. My advice would be to stick with the Sansui amp and the 2ax's.

Kent

* edit: Actually, the AR-91 also uses 3-way switches, so not the same as the Limiteds. If I get another pair of 11s I want to install L-pads.

 

[ar_pro]

Larrybody did essentially the same thing by putting AR-91 crossovers in AR-58s's 

Ha, ha!  I did exactly the opposite!  

[powerglide]

14 minutes ago, ar_pro said:

On the rear panel of your amplifier, the impedance range indicated for the A or B speaker connection appears to be from 4 to 16 ohms, which should mean that you'd be OK running a single pair of 4 ohm systems like the AR-3a or AR-11. Check out the closeup photo attached, and compare it against your own amp to be sure.

Right you are, never had the original manual and have been using specs from the Sansui web, but my rear panel reads as per your photo.

nice work

[powerglide]

29 minutes ago, JKent said:

I'm working on some 11s now

I've been monitoring your thread Kent and they look great, most of the content is about timberwork which I'm all over, If I'm lucky enough to get these 11's I'll be after inside info of the inside workings. 

 

[JKent]

Thanks powerglide

Crossover work for the AR-11 is easy: one each 120uF, 40uF and 10uF per cabinet. I used film but you could use NPE for the larger values if you want. But you originally asked "what do people think of these being a step up from the 2ax's" and my opinion is it's a very small step. And for most listening the 2ax may be more satisfying.

Kent

[powerglide]

These will be cheap enough, if he bites, if not this thread has enlightened me on them and my Amp, I kind of feel there's a set of 3 waiting for me in the future. 

Good feedback Kent, I'll get the modded Hi-Vi installed into the 2ax's and finish my restoration post, including a more detail review now that they have been in my system for several months. I was somewhat off the mark with my first impressions, Watch this space 

[powerglide]

So the seller has pulled he sale due to the tweeters not functioning, is the Hi-Vi mod I'm doing for the 2ax's the same for the 11's minus the 25ohm resistors?

[Aadams]

43 minutes ago, powerglide said:

So the seller has pulled he sale due to the tweeters not functioning, is the Hi-Vi mod I'm doing for the 2ax's the same for the 11's minus the 25ohm resistors?

No.  But the good news is there are brand new replacement tweeters available in the states.

Adams

 

[powerglide]

Thank you again, have linked the seller to this post 

[Aadams]

6 hours ago, Aadams said:

brand new replacement tweeters available in the states.

https://www.midwestspeakerrepair.com/shop/home-audio/mw-audio-mt-4121-75-inch-dome-tweeter/

Above is the link to the seller.  There are several threads discussing this tweeter.  Current consensus is it is a drop in replacement for AR 10pi, 11,  and 3a improved but not the dome tweeters with the 3 orange dots like your 2ax.

[ligs]

AR 3a is much more satisfying than AR 2ax due the better bass. AR11, IMO, is more transparent than AR3a, probably due to less sound diffraction around the front baffle and grill(foam instead of cloth as I remember). I would grab a pair of AR11 if I had the chance. 

 

 

[frankmarsi]

 Above was the first word three years ago on good available tweeters since the ABT type and HiVi type first gave any sort of hope.

FM

[johnfalc]

17 hours ago, powerglide said:

Crickey, I never looked at the Ohms of the 3's rats! 

I have other Amps that with drive them but none as nice as my AU-D11 

http://www.sansui.us/AU-D11.htm

http://www.sansui.us/PGMP_AUD11.htm

I ran a Sansui AU-D11 with my 3a's and 90's to high levels with no problems at all for a year or two.  This was, BTW, the original D11, not the D11 II.  You'll have no trouble at all, I expect, with the 11's or 3a's.

[johnfalc]

3 hours ago, johnfalc said:

I ran a Sansui AU-D11 with my 3a's and 90's to high levels with no problems at all for a year or two.  This was, BTW, the original D11, not the D11 II.  You'll have no trouble at all, I expect, with the 11's or 3a's.

From a site with a review of the AU-D11 ... plenty of power for 4 ohms:  http://www.hifi-classic.net/review/sansui-au-d11-332.html  

"The ultra-low distortion of the Sansui AU-D11 was demonstrated by its performance into 8-ohm loads at 1,000 Hz, where the distortion was between 0.0005 and 0.001 per cent for power outputs up to 140 watts. When the AU-D11 was driving 4-ohm loads, the distortion did not change very much, reading less than 0.0014 per cent up to 190 watts. Many amplifiers, over the limited power range through which they can drive 2-ohm loads, have substantially higher distortion driving such impedances than they have with higher ones. Not so with the AU-D11, whose distortion was under 0.0032 per cent into 2 ohms from 1 to 200 watts."

I see similar performance when checking the AU-D11 with my HP 339A ... some clever circuitry (feed-forward in the current gain stage) and a solid integrated amp with a good MC/MM phono section.

[powerglide]

8 hours ago, johnfalc said:

solid integrated amp with a good MC/MM phono section

Thanks John, I've had this amp for 4 or so years and have only added external phono stage's over the past year, really not worth the effort and especially not the $$$$

As you would know the intergrated phono is one of their best, straight out of the AU-917 I believe and can handle MC's down to .1mV it has a gain option to .2 but no loading which is why I wanted to try a dedicated phono with multiple options. I choose an Exposure 26 and as nice as it is, small step up from the on board, I don't think being spot on to the carts spec makes any massive sonic difference. Just as long as your in the ball park. 

[powerglide]

19 hours ago, Aadams said:

Above is the link to the seller.  There are several threads discussing this tweeter.  Current consensus is it is a drop in replacement for AR 10pi, 11,  and 3a improved but not the dome tweeters with the 3 orange dots like your 2ax.

Thanks Adams and Frank, I liked the Hi Vi price better. To get these landed in Oz $380 AUD for the pair.

The seller is checking the crossovers and internal wiring first, what is the median life of the originals? Is it common that they would just stop working or would they start failing the higher frequencies and then get weaker and weaker? 

Thanks Al