AR-2 tweeter repair

[dxho]

I've managed to blow another set (yes, all four). Has anyone repaired (or gotten repaired) these tweeters? I'm willing to put up with them- it's easier than the alternatives.

[RoyC]

I've managed to blow another set (yes, all four). Has anyone repaired (or gotten repaired) these tweeters? I'm willing to put up with them- it's easier than the alternatives.

If the original tweeters could be repaired, we wouldn't be spending so much time playing around with alternatives. The general consensus is that the old tweeters cannot be adequately repaired.

I would argue that trying to repair the old tweeters is nowhere near as easy as the alternatives...nor as potentially successful. Modern tweeters are more durable than those you have been blowing.

Roy

[dxho]

Looks to me like it's a question of (lack of) demand. These speakers are easily repairable (making them stouter, too?). And one place I called- Simply Speakers- said they could do just that if I or they had the parts. It's not a question of fresh stock- 5" cone speakers are still being made. SS will replace voice coils and cones on speakers 8" and larger, at very reasonable prices. They also claim to have OEM AR 3 and 3a woofers and tweeters. I didn't quiz them about those drivers.

The reason I'm even bothering is the original reason I joined this board- looking for more high end from these ancient speakers. Of course, most feedback around here is to keep things stock, and that's mostly been my experience in attempting upgrades (that original sounds better). So I'll wait for some more used speakers to roll around. I'm not ready for Zilch's upgrade yet, and I'd probably do that to the KLH 17s anyway.

[frankmarsi]

If the original tweeters could be repaired, we wouldn't be spending so much time playing around with alternatives. The general consensus is that the old tweeters cannot be adequately repaired.

I would argue that trying to repair the old tweeters is nowhere near as easy as the alternatives...nor as potentially successful. Modern tweeters are more durable than those you have been blowing.

Roy

Hi Roy, FM here. I've realized decades ago that a 'blown' AR tweeter ain't worth the paper it's made with, however,while reading this topic I thought you might find it at least somewhat interesting that "Part-Express" is now selling "Ferro-Fluid". At least I've never seen it before and I thought that maybe, somehow it can be used with existing old tweeters and also for replacement tweeter installs? I'm sure you're aware that there are several outlets that sell tweeter coils with domes and leads attached. I often wondered if they manufacture the sizes and workable specs and could possibly be 'hot-rodded' for vintage tweeters but, I never inquired. Any ideas?

FM

[RoyC]

Looks to me like it's a question of (lack of) demand. These speakers are easily repairable (making them stouter, too?).

Ken,

Sorry, they are not "easily repairable"...and it is not a question of lack of demand. Simply Speaker's is just one of countless speaker repair businesses (Millersound in Lansdale, PA being the best I know of) who would love to be able to repair the old tweeters. The fact of the matter is that the construction of the old tweeters was extremely unique. Special jigs were used to align the voice coil/dome assembly, and then suspend it with butyl covered blobs of urethane foam. There are absolutely no modern equivalents to this arrangement. (This is actually a very old discussion....If I can find Tom Tyson's much more thorough comments on this subject I will post it. Tom said the "reject" pile in the factory was huge!) I have spent quite some time studying this matter, and consult regularly with Larry Lagace (Ebay's "Vintage AR"), who has repeatedly attempted to find a way to fix the old tweeters without success.

You are correct that this forum is oriented around restoration, which is why our discussions concerning the HiVi Q1R and other replacement candidates revolves around duplicating original performance as closely as possible, not modifying it.

The replacement drivers sold by Simply Speaker's, Larry, and others, are all sourced from AB Tech Services. The tweeter fits the hole, but requires the parallel inductor to make it "close", just as the HiVi tweeter does. ABT drivers generally fit the holes, but are not a match to the originals.

Roy

[genek]

The reason I'm even bothering is the original reason I joined this board- looking for more high end from these ancient speakers. Of course, most feedback around here is to keep things stock, and that's mostly been my experience in attempting upgrades (that original sounds better).

I think what you've experienced reflects is that what represented "high end" in the era of classic ARs (making recordings seem more like reproductions of their original live performances) is different from what seems to represent "high end" for modern speakers (reproducing exactly what's on the recording, whether it sounds like the original performance or not). If your listening preferences haven't changed since the classic era, keeping the speakers stock or modding modern drivers to get them to approximate stock sound is always going to seem better to you than today's "high end," just as people who prefer today's sound will always dislike the sound of classics even if they can be made to perform to their original specs.

[RoyC]

Hi Roy, FM here. I've realized decades ago that a 'blown' AR tweeter ain't worth the paper it's made with, however,while reading this topic I thought you might find it at least somewhat interesting that "Part-Express" is now selling "Ferro-Fluid". At least I've never seen it before and I thought that maybe, somehow it can be used with existing old tweeters and also for replacement tweeter installs? I'm sure you're aware that there are several outlets that sell tweeter coils with domes and leads attached. I often wondered if they manufacture the sizes and workable specs and could possibly be 'hot-rodded' for vintage tweeters but, I never inquired. Any ideas?

FM

Hey Frank!

Ferro-fluid is but one ingredient. Building a tweeter from the ground up, or rebuilding the old one (see post above) is just not an easy task. Another thing I've noticed is that many folks fixing old speakers are looking to repair them on the cheap. (I KNOW that does not apply to you, Frank, given the warehouse of AR parts you are sitting on! ) If the day comes that a true drop-in duplicate shows up, or a viable repair is available, folks should be ready to fork out $100+ per tweeter. ABT is retailing their crappy one for $70+/- each.

Incidentally, both the AB Tech replacement, and the HiVi Q1R have ferro-fluid in their voice coil gaps, and are significantly more robust than the original tweeters.

Roy

[dxho]

Ken,

Sorry, they are not "easily repairable"...and it is not a question of lack of demand. Simply Speaker's is just one of countless speaker repair businesses (Millersound in Lansdale, PA being the best I know of) who would love to be able to repair the old tweeters. The fact of the matter is that the construction of the old tweeters was extremely unique. Special jigs were used to align the voice coil/dome assembly, and then suspend it with butyl covered blobs of urethane foam. There are absolutely no modern equivalents to this arrangement. (This is actually a very old discussion....If I can find Tom Tyson's much more thorough comments on this subject I will post it. Tom said the "reject" pile in the factory was huge!) I have spent quite some time studying this matter, and consult regularly with Larry Lagace (Ebay's "Vintage AR"), who has repeatedly attempted to find a way to fix the old tweeters without success.

You are correct that this forum is oriented around restoration, which is why our discussions concerning the HiVi Q1R and other replacement candidates revolves around duplicating original performance as closely as possible, not modifying it.

The replacement drivers sold by Simply Speaker's, Larry, and others, are all sourced from AB Tech Services. The tweeter fits the hole, but requires the parallel inductor to make it "close", just as the HiVi tweeter does. ABT drivers generally fit the holes, but are not a match to the originals.

Roy

Are we talking about this driver?

[dxho]

I think what you've experienced reflects is that what represented "high end" in the era of classic ARs (making recordings seem more like reproductions of their original live performances) is different from what seems to represent "high end" for modern speakers (reproducing exactly what's on the recording, whether it sounds like the original performance or not). If your listening preferences haven't changed since the classic era, keeping the speakers stock or modding modern drivers to get them to approximate stock sound is always going to seem better to you than today's "high end," just as people who prefer today's sound will always dislike the sound of classics even if they can be made to perform to their original specs.

I don't know if my preferences have changed. I prefer something less shrill than just about any modern tweeter I've heard, and brighter than the stock AR-2. The pair of 2axs I have mostly gets there.

[RoyC]

Are we talking about this driver?

Ooops! No! My apologies, Ken! I thought we were talking about the AR 3/4" dome tweeter, which has dominated the discussion in the past. OK, forget everything I said! You are absolutely correct...That would be the AR-2 "tweeter", which later became the AR-2a midrange. I know of no drop-in replacement for that midrange-type driver, and I completely agree with your comments regarding it.

Roy

[genek]

I don't know if my preferences have changed. I prefer something less shrill than just about any modern tweeter I've heard, and brighter than the stock AR-2. The pair of 2axs I have mostly gets there.

Welcome to the dinosaur club.

[soundminded]

I've managed to blow another set (yes, all four). Has anyone repaired (or gotten repaired) these tweeters? I'm willing to put up with them- it's easier than the alternatives.

AR2 was the first of a series of at least 4 models which used the same cabinet and similar woofers but everything else changed about them.

AR2a added an 8 ohm versiou of the AR3 tweeter to AR2. AR2ax replaced the two 5" midranges with a 3 1/2 inch midrange and an 8 ohm version of the AR3a tweeter. It also replaced the cast basket ferrite magnet 4 hole woofer with a stamped basket alnico magnet 6 hole woofer (did I get it the right way about the magnets?) I don't know what AR2x was about.

The AR 10" woofer is an excellent performer. However, sadly I found out the hard way it does have its power handling limitations as I damaged one AR2a woofer with an 80 WPC Pioneer SX 950 Receiver. Bill Degall at Millersound in Landsdale repaired it flawlessly of course. That is typical of all his work as far as I can tell. At the time I was there, he was repairing 5" drivers from an AR2a for someone who wanted an accurate restoration. The cones were warped just like mine are. He was actually making new cones for them.

I restored a pair of AR2axs and found them to be outstanding speakers when carefully equalized. As I've reported in the past, mine sound much better than any I heard back in the era when they were on the market. I haven't decided what to do about the AR2as yet but I bought an extra pair of AR2ax midranges on ebay. I may try them in place of the 5" drivers. If that isn't satisfactory by itself, I'll probably add some mylar dome tweeter arrays. I'm not one who is concerned with authenticity, I just want the best sound I can get. I think that's what AR's engineers wanted too and I don't think they'd have had any problem with my point of view.

[dxho]

Welcome to the dinosaur club.

So, shrill would qualify me as hip ?

[dxho]

AR2 was the first of a series of at least 4 models which used the same cabinet and similar woofers but everything else changed about them.

AR2a added an 8 ohm versiou of the AR3 tweeter to AR2. AR2ax replaced the two 5" midranges with a 3 1/2 inch midrange and an 8 ohm version of the AR3a tweeter. It also replaced the cast basket ferrite magnet 4 hole woofer with a stamped basket alnico magnet 6 hole woofer (did I get it the right way about the magnets?) I don't know what AR2x was about.

The AR 10" woofer is an excellent performer. However, sadly I found out the hard way it does have its power handling limitations as I damaged one AR2a woofer with an 80 WPC Pioneer SX 950 Receiver. Bill Degall at Millersound in Landsdale repaired it flawlessly of course. That is typical of all his work as far as I can tell. At the time I was there, he was repairing 5" drivers from an AR2a for someone who wanted an accurate restoration. The cones were warped just like mine are. He was actually making new cones for them.

I restored a pair of AR2axs and found them to be outstanding speakers when carefully equalized. As I've reported in the past, mine sound much better than any I heard back in the era when they were on the market. I haven't decided what to do about the AR2as yet but I bought an extra pair of AR2ax midranges on ebay. I may try them in place of the 5" drivers. If that isn't satisfactory by itself, I'll probably add some mylar dome tweeter arrays. I'm not one who is concerned with authenticity, I just want the best sound I can get. I think that's what AR's engineers wanted too and I don't think they'd have had any problem with my point of view.

Ah HA! So there is someone who'll attempt repairs on these speakers. It just doesn't seem all that big a deal. I'm not even worried about warped cones. I just need 'em to squeak.

I blew out this last set on a Carver HR-772 receiver @~125 watts per channel. Hey, at least it wasn't clipping. I do truly enjoy these things, too. The AR-2axs are the front speakers, and these AR-2s are the surrounds.

I've definitely looked at upgrading these to later AR-2whatever specs, since I'm apparently not going to replace them. My preference would be to add the dedicated tweeter. But the box is cut wrong, and this addition requires a new crossover. This is one of those situations where the fix is probably going to cost more than the original investment.

[RoyC]

AR2 was the first of a series of at least 4 models which used the same cabinet and similar woofers but everything else changed about them.

AR2a added an 8 ohm versiou of the AR3 tweeter to AR2. AR2ax replaced the two 5" midranges with a 3 1/2 inch midrange and an 8 ohm version of the AR3a tweeter. It also replaced the cast basket ferrite magnet 4 hole woofer with a stamped basket alnico magnet 6 hole woofer (did I get it the right way about the magnets?) I don't know what AR2x was about.

Hi Soundminded,

...been wondering where you have been.

That 1"+ orange dome tweeter used in the AR-2a and early 2ax was actually the very same low impedance driver (less than 2 ohms dcr!) used in the AR-3. Folks often assume it was an 8 ohm version, like the later 3/4" domes, but it wasn't.

The AR-2, 2a, and early 2ax all shared the wide flange, 6 bolt, cloth surround, alnico magnet woofer. The AR-2ax ultimately used 4 different versions of the 10" AR woofer, 3 with alnico magnets...earlier with cloth surrounds, and later with foam. Someplace near the end of the line, the ferrite magnet, foam surround woofer showed up.

The most common 2ax woofer is the 4 bolt version shared with the AR-5, which had a standard size flange, foam surround, and alnico magnet.

The AR-2x was similar to the 2-way AR-4x, as it used a similar (same?) cone tweeter. Both were crossed over at 1200hz, but the 2x used the 2ax 10" woofer in a 2ax size cabinet.

Roy

[RoyC]

Ah HA! So there is someone who'll attempt repairs on these speakers.

Ken,

I agree with Soundminded...Bill LeGall http://www.millersound.net/about.htm is your best bet for a fix.

A possible solution to your high range issue, would be to place tweeters on top of the cabinets. AR sold "supertweeters" for this purpose for the AR-1 and 2. These were essentially the orange dome tweeters discussed above in a box (with a crossover capacitor) that sat on top of the cabinets. Any of the tweeters mentioned in this thread, new or old, could be set up for this purpose.

Roy

[JKent]

Those AR2s used two 5" mids as tweeters, mounted in a metal or plastic frame to angle them. Two questions: What about using a pair of 5" full-range speakers? Madisound has some that are recommended for older speakers, like the Aurasound NS525-255-8A or the Goldwood GM-35 5.25" Paper Cone Midrange. Roy--would either of these work?

OR... since you keep blowing these, what about finding a wave guide that fits the dimensions of the angled mid/tweet enclosure and going with an E-Wave mod?

Kent

[RoyC]

Those AR2s used two 5" mids as tweeters, mounted in a metal or plastic frame to angle them. Two questions: What about using a pair of 5" full-range speakers? Madisound has some that are recommended for older speakers, like the Aurasound NS525-255-8A or the Goldwood GM-35 5.25" Paper Cone Midrange. Roy--would either of these work?

OR... since you keep blowing these, what about finding a wave guide that fits the dimensions of the angled mid/tweet enclosure and going with an E-Wave mod?

Kent

Hey Kent,

Well, we're back to the same old set of problems...Finding something that neatly fits the hole, and then making it "work" like the original. It always comes down to the (very likely) required crossover adjustments. We have no specs to go by to even hazard a guess regarding possible replacements. I think Ken's instincts are on the money at this point. If he can find used originals, or get the old ones repaired, he could then look into ways of enhancing the high frequencies, if necessary. The other route is exhaustive experimentation with possible modern replacements like the ones you mentioned.

Roy

[dxho]

Miller Sound is plan A at the moment.

[genek]

Periodic cruising through eBay to sock away spares has become something of a hobby. There have been a few cross-fired tweeter assemblies listed in recent weeks, though none currently.

[soundminded]

Those AR2s used two 5" mids as tweeters, mounted in a metal or plastic frame to angle them. Two questions: What about using a pair of 5" full-range speakers? Madisound has some that are recommended for older speakers, like the Aurasound NS525-255-8A or the Goldwood GM-35 5.25" Paper Cone Midrange. Roy--would either of these work?

OR... since you keep blowing these, what about finding a wave guide that fits the dimensions of the angled mid/tweet enclosure and going with an E-Wave mod?

Kent

OR... he could fuse them. They don't appear to me to be much different from ordinary table radio speakers. Probably couldn't handle more than a few watts each, typical for that type of driver in its day. Not intended for high SPLs of a high fidelity sound system. I'm not sure the newer midrange drivers could handle much more power either. These speakers were not designed for blaring rock at ear shattering levels. Back in the day when they were on the market, repeatedly using them at high SPLs to do something they weren't designed for was merely a matter of money and inconvenience. Today it's a matter of whether or not they can be repaired or replaced at all.

As I think Tom pointed out, we really have no way to know for sure what any of these speakers sounded like when they were new, just our memories to go by. There are no pristine examples to use as a reference and even in the most mild of condions, there are physical and chemical changes to the materials over these last 40 or more years that have changed them to where they are almost certainly audibly different from the way they were when they were new.

[genek]

The original AR-2's high frequency response topped out somewhere around 12-13kHz, which was plenty for the sources of the period but too low even for the "subdued" classic New England sound of the 60's and 70's. If these have only blown recently, I think I'd try getting a couple of inexpensive 4-inchers and playing around with the HF level control to see how far off they are. Might actually get you to the somewhere in between original and modern sound you'd like.

[JKent]

A couple of thoughts:

1. Since we're talking about 5" mids and not the 2ax tweets, maybe they CAN be fixed. And if anyone can do it, it's Bill LeGall. You can email him: Millerspkr@aol.com
   
2. The originals are 5" diameter, with the mounting holes 4-3/4" diagonally. Since these are being used as rear speakers in a surround setup, I (like Gene) would be tempted to try inexpensive replacements. Wonder how the KLH mid/full range would be?
   
3. For improved high frequency, any add-on tweeter should work, as Roy said, but a really nice way to go is the MicroAcoustic array. They were made for use with AR and KLH
   http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?showtopic=3251&st=0&p=68788&hl=+microstatic%20+tweeter&fromsearch=1entry68788 Or, Radio Shack marketed some "super tweeters" years back--just a tweeter in a housing that sits atop your cabinet. They sell for crazy prices now. If you are handy, you could make your own add-on out of a block of wood and your choice of tweeter. A guy was selling something like that on ebay a while back. Not handy? How 'bout these http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=297-409
   
4. Fusing! Of course! Where's Vern when we need him?
   
5. The housing is 10-1/2 x 6-1/2". There must be a suitable wave guide for a Zilch special. Bet the 6-1/2" x 12" one sold by PE would work with just a little cutting of the baffle board.
   
6. If a member wants to test one of my 2a mid/tweets and post the findings, in order to help others find suitable modern replacements, PM me (I'll want the driver back intact).
   

Kent

[genek]

The MA array doesn't kick in until around 3kHz. It'd be a good add-on for a fully functional AR-2, but not a suitable replacement.

A rectangular waveguide in the exsting slot would require the speaker to be horizontal. Of course, the original cross-fired cones also require this, so maybe not an issue.

[dxho]

A couple of thoughts:

1. Since we're talking about 5" mids and not the 2ax tweets, maybe they CAN be fixed. And if anyone can do it, it's Bill LeGall. You can email him: Millerspkr@aol.com
   
2. The originals are 5" diameter, with the mounting holes 4-3/4" diagonally. Since these are being used as rear speakers in a surround setup, I (like Gene) would be tempted to try inexpensive replacements. Wonder how the KLH mid/full range would be?
   
3. For improved high frequency, any add-on tweeter should work, as Roy said, but a really nice way to go is the MicroAcoustic array. They were made for use with AR and KLH
   http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?showtopic=3251&st=0&p=68788&hl=+microstatic%20+tweeter&fromsearch=1entry68788 Or, Radio Shack marketed some "super tweeters" years back--just a tweeter in a housing that sits atop your cabinet. They sell for crazy prices now. If you are handy, you could make your own add-on out of a block of wood and your choice of tweeter. A guy was selling something like that on ebay a while back. Not handy? How 'bout these http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=297-409
   
4. Fusing! Of course! Where's Vern when we need him?
   
5. The housing is 10-1/2 x 6-1/2". There must be a suitable wave guide for a Zilch special. Bet the 6-1/2" x 12" one sold by PE would work with just a little cutting of the baffle board.
   
6. If a member wants to test one of my 2a mid/tweets and post the findings, in order to help others find suitable modern replacements, PM me (I'll want the driver back intact).
   

Kent

1) waiting to hear back. They do refoam work for $30 a pair (the 5 inchers).

2) I haven't really gotten serious about non-OEM replacements. That might work, though I'm inclined to wait for Mr. LeGall

3) see above. If I can't get the originals repaired (or if they aren't satisfactory), I'll look at options. My inclination is toward AR's own upgrades. I've not done it so far because it would involve crossover upgrades, and I'm not that serious yet.

4) fusing good. Soon to come, I can only call it lazy on my part. it's not like this is a new phenomenon, or anything.

5) ewaves are on The List. But at this moment I'd probably start from scratch, rather than trash an antique.

I am running these horizontal.