Older AR's or, just buy new speakers?

[frankmarsi]

9/20/2023

I’ve been fortunate to be able to own and listen to my AR speakers for 52 years, in fact since 1971.

I realize there may be many more recent owners who are enthusiastic about vintage AR speakers as compared to a handful of long term owners but, if given the choice.

Which way would you rather spend your money?

Rare Original Acoustic Research AR-1 Speakers on the auction site.    

Cost: $10,000.00 for sale. Go take a look.

Or your choice of new?

https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/editors-choice-speakers-5000-10000/

To respondents, please tell us the span of your ownership.

[genek]

The AR-1 is really a collector's item more than a serious audio gear option.  Would you choose a 57 T-bird over a modern Mustang GT?

The only speaker in the TAS article that I've actually heard is the Harbeth, and that one is really more like an AR-4 on steroids.

I doubt I'd ever be willing to drop anything near $10k on a pair of speakers anyway.

First experience with ARs: uncle who owned AR-1s and 2s and took me to the GCS listening room and the Carnegie "Live vs Recorded" demo.

Bought my first ARs (1975 2ax) as a graduation present. Since than have picked up 6s, 3as and a variety of newer, smaller items like ms1s and an MC.1 center channel from the Holographic series. Plus a bunch of AR turntables that I've fixed up and sold off.

[AR surround]

AR owner since 1972:  AR5, AR3a, AR7, AR9, AR90, AR48, AR915

I personally would not spend a lot of money on a vintage speaker for the collector's value.   I would rather buy new. 

Of the ones mentioned in the article, I've only heard the Vandersteen 3A.  They are very nice speakers.

Every "modern" speaker that I've auditioned has very impressive, detailed sound..but I would describe it as more antiseptic than musical especially with digital sources.  Perhaps my ears are tuned to the sound of the AR9 series.  That is fine with me.

[jnolan5784]

My father bought his pair of AR-3a's in January of 1969. Throughout my entire childhood that sound became my reference point in audio. The setup in those days was anything but optimal - Pioneer 25 wpc receiver, speakers against the wall on carpeted floor, lamp cord for speaker wire, Dual turntable with who knows what cartridge, etc. He eventually put them up in the original boxes due the pots being so bad.

A couple of years ago I was putting together a surround sound system and needed two more speakers. I went to get them and only one was functional. I had the one speaker playing in the background as I was working on the other parts of the system. As I was walking away, I heard something unbelievable that stopped me in my tracks. The one speaker sounded really, really good. I realized that they needed saving because of their potential. At that point, I knew little to nothing about AR or acoustic suspension. 

Through this forum, I was able to learn and eventually restore those speakers (caps, rebuilt tweeters, and Kent's potentiometers). They sound amazing and was able to give them back to my father with a more capable amp that does them justice. 

I now have a set of LST's that I am currently working on and acquiring the appropriate components to power those beasts. 

In response to the original question - I vote for the vintage because they have a sound I haven't been able to find new, but that may be because I grew up on them. 

[frankmarsi]

 

 

@jnolan5784, you recall a good time of your youth as it was.  For me, at the early age of 21 was when I had in my possession two AR-3a’s and couldn’t be happier.  Then in 1987-89 I was lucky enough to start listening to AR-LST’s to the present date and beyond. 

“”I now have a set of LST's that I am currently working on and acquiring the appropriate components to power those beasts.””  jnolan5784

I’m glad to know that you’re alert of the needs in terms of actual amplifier power for maximum positive results in using them. In my experience and as anyone who has learned through proper listening knowledge and experience, I would agree, “these beasts” do require loads of power to respond at their best. And in general, all AR speakers need power contrary to what some unknowing folks say. I too started my AR journey with only 17.5WPC (short time) then 60WPC (short time) until and thankfully up to ultimately almost 400WPC which was the best my AR-3a's ever sounded, period.

Below is a sound-sample recorded directly with an early 2005 digital camera or a $59. cell phone (I don't recall), seated 15 feet away from the speakers. It wasn’t separately miked or mixed, just the camera's built-in mike. You can expand the screen to full-size by clicking the double-arrows in the upper left corner. Be aware, if using miniature-computer speakers, it will sound miniature so,.…

Nonetheless, the only way to achieve this sort of big-house-filling-sound is with big-power. It would be the same for new or vintage speakers.

https://community.classicspeakerpages.net/topic/10649-do-ar-speakers-really-sound-that-good-more-new-video/

I’ve have been very lucky since I made a life-long choice at the onset of my continuing membership in the world of ‘Hi-Fi’ and have remained loyal since as did the other prior two posters.

FM

[Dave S.]

I am an Allison and AR fan and going back to 1976. I’ve owned Allison One, Two, Three, Four, and Eights as well as AR11, 9, 9LS and. 98LS. My brother has owned I’ve listened to extensively over the years AR10pi, 3, 3a. That being said I’ve been out of the Allison/AR ownership circle for many years but the sound these speakers produced were the reference and basis for hopefully my last “modern” speaker purchase. I wanted a speaker that evoked the qualities of those speakers but with more up to date characteristics speaker designs now produce. Long story short, I have been listening to Bryston Mini T speakers for almost eight years now. Attached are links to the speaker brochure and a white paper. While researching what first grabbed my attention was the design philosophy about in room response and sound power. I know speakers are like food; everyone has different tastes but I feel these speakers attributes may give you the sound you are looking for. When available used, they are usually very reasonably priced. Just my two cents!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ya5hf6s9fc986a3/Bryston Speaker Whitepaper.pdf?dl=0

https://bryston.com/passive/mini-t/

 

[meta_noia_fot]

I've been enjoying AR speakers for two years now. I was born in the mid-80s and grew up listening to my dad's Bose 501's, mostly with CD's. When I was 15 I started collecting records, including new records at a time when that was near its nadir. I had an extremely basic system through college, a first career and grad school, but those records traveled with me across the country. Not long after moving to New England, I picked up a pretty busted up pair of 6s. I fixed those up and have been hooked on AR and other New England-manufactured speakers since. I've been fortunate to have some expendable funds the past couple years and have put some towards acquiring relatively cheap AR sets and mostly performing necessary repairs myself. My main system is a pair of AR-9's, but my most used system is in our living room where I've set up 91's. I'm a parent and this is where me and the kid listen to most of our music. I'll also have my quad system up and running again soon (quad is another weird, new obsession since I inherited my grandfather's receiver) which is composed of four 3a's. I've also heard some others, including the AR-2x, -4x, -8, -92, -303, and the Rock Partner.  

I'd rather spend the 10K on the AR-1's although I agree they'd be more of a collector's item rather than something I drove daily. I prefer AR's for a few reasons. First, I agree with ARSurround that most modern system demonstrations I've heard sound antiseptic, and I wouldn't describe any of the AR's I've heard that way.

Second, AR's and the -9's in particular, suit my musical tastes well. I often listen to music that punches close to 20hz. I love electronic music and many of those can go very low. The track "1st 44" by Aphex Twin is a system tester for me. And the 9's make each of those numerous bass punches feel authoritative. I've also heard some avant-garde organ music I love recently, "Black Host" by William Bolcom. Some of the notes in that you feel more than you hear it seems. I have eclectic tastes, and whatever I'm listening to, whether it's John Zorn or Harry Nilsson, my ears are referencing the 9's now. I want an all-in-one, full spectrum loudspeaker system and AR delivers.

Finally, I think I'll be sentimental about AR equipment because it's the first nice equipment I've ever had. It's not new, but I bought it, I fixed it, and I'm enjoying it. Beyond the sound of the speakers, I enjoy that they were designed and manufactured in the US and specifically New England. Almost all my equipment is older than I am (some significantly) and I feel like I'm in danger of being nostalgic about a time I never knew.

So give me 10K and I'll take the AR-1's. I want to hear what the best loudspeaker system in the 50's sounded like.

[Aadams]

21 hours ago, meta_noia_fot said:

The track "1st 44" by Aphex Twin is a system tester for me. And the 9's make each of those numerous bass punches feel authoritative. I've also heard some avant-garde organ music I love recently, "Black Host" by William Bolcom.

Good write up. I see why the "44" is a test track.  I tried the Bolcom and couldn't make contact.   There is a lot of value in a properly working AR.  I am sure by now there must  be new speakers at least as good as an AR9 but I am skeptical they are $10,000 or $15,000 better. 

[meta_noia_fot]

On 10/1/2023 at 6:37 PM, Aadams said:

Good write up. I see why the "44" is a test track.  I tried the Bolcom and couldn't make contact.   There is a lot of value in a properly working AR.  I am sure by now there must  be new speakers at least as good as an AR9 but I am skeptical they are $10,000 or $15,000 better. 

Thanks. The Bolcom isn’t for everyone for sure. But a lot of those 70s Nonesuch avant-grade albums are really well recorded and mastered by Bob Ludwig. The Bolcom (and the B-side piece by William Albright) in particular has a huge dynamic range. They also tend to be cheap. I got my copy for $5 and it looked unplayed, apparently the previous owner didn’t make contact with the music either. 

[frankmarsi]

@ meta-noia-fot, if you haven't already, look into E. Power Biggs. More traditional renditions and these older recordings may not have the extremes of frequency response as the ones in your recommendations.

I have a few of his LP's and listening for extended periods can be monotonous as listening to any singular instrument can, even though the organ pretty much covers the gamut of frequencies. Of course these are classics nonetheless

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIBnIp1SoUs 

 

FM

372

[genek]

On 9/30/2023 at 6:25 PM, meta_noia_fot said:

AR's and the -9's in particular, suit my musical tastes well.

So give me 10K and I'll take the AR-1's. I want to hear what the best loudspeaker system in the 50's sounded like.

I already know what they sounded like, and if your preference is AR-9's, you won't care much for them.

If it was my $10k, there's be a pair of LSTs or 9s undergoing cost-is-no-object restoration, and I'd pocket any change.

[frankmarsi]

I agree with Gene, those AR-1's are from a different time. I've never heard them but, they must have a vintage sound that differs greatly from AR's domes.
Probably closer to my father's old Magnavox console than my AR-3a's and AR-LST's.

By the time I became an aspiring audiophile, to a degree many people were still disputing dome tweeters but, AR forged on ahead. With-in a couple of years and many undisputed positive listening tests, many other manufacturers adopted domes. Not to mention, when I did enter hi-fi, most speakers were ported designs or simply sealed enclosures or simply, open-back enclosures.

AR had many battles proving the 'acoustic-suspension' design principal at the onset. In due time many non-believers of acoustic-suspension prinicpal also came to understand the benefits. Many relatively new- comers to audio and speakers on this and other forums simply take it for granted whereas fifty or more years ago this was a major issue for the buying public. You had to read all about the technology first and then go listen as many times as it took to make you a believer.  The many AR brochures printed were also eloquently written and almost handing their design principals to you on a silver-platter. 

Today, for the 10 or 15 grand and if I was never aware of AR's. I'd go another direction and probably would've bought used "Apogees" and spending a whole lot more.  Though at the time in the late 1960's and early '70s I had strongly considered the Wharfedales and the Rectilinears, heck I even considered the "Fisher" bookshelf models too, while Advent was still to come about. I took the plunge in 1971 with tremendous trepidation. I was 20- 21 and spending money that was so important to me for other diversities and my education, I was shaking all over. When I finally had the two 3a's horizontally up on 6 foot elevated wall shelves (as prescribed back then), in my room, I knew I made the correct choice and that my prays were answered even if the highs were somewhat muted.

Today, all things considered and compared to back then, I'm on another level. And now 52 years later whenever I put on a record and due to all the elevated quality details I put in place (cables, cartridges, tonearms, etc), I'm certain that that's how the music sounds as it was recorded. Realism is key, exaggerated  highs, bloated bass are not what I seek. It took countless listening hours in my own room and many hours visiting salons, showrooms and listening to friend's systems served to confirm that my direction was correct.

FM

 

 

 

 

387

[genek]

The AR-1's low end is quite similar to the later 3, 3a, etc. (yes, LST as well); Except for the lowering of the woofer/mid crossover frequency that happened in the AR-3a, the low end of AR's 11" woofer models didn't change all that much until the dual woofer AR-9 came on the scene.

The 755a full-range the AR-1 used as a mid/high driver was a hugely overrated speaker. The sound was smooth enough in the voice range - not surprising when you consider that it was originally designed to be a PA speaker -  but it started rolling off at around 10kHz, and by 13 kHz there was nothing there.

If there was no such thing as vintage speakers, I'd be checking out Yamaha's new NS-5000, the modern reimagining of their NS-1000 with 12" woofer and dome mid and tweeter. It's bass reflex rather than acoustic suspension, but initial reviews describe the lows as "tight," the highs as "sweet," and the soundstage as "big and expansive." It will probably also have that "modern antiseptic" sound quality, but fixing that is what tone controls and equalizers are for, isn't it?

Unfortunately, it blows the budget of this discussion with a $15k MSRP. No idea if anyone still sells new audio at discounts.

[newandold]

$10,000.00

+ $450.00 shipping…….

 

I had no interest at all in that eBay pair of A1’s…… Until I read further and found out that the shipping was only 450 bucks. Damn, if I didn’t nearly go for it.

 

All kidding aside (well perhaps not) this is still a free country and you can ask whatever you like!

 

These days you can buy an awful lot of sound for 10,000 bucks

[ligs]

I owned AR 4x,2AX,3A, 11, 9 , and 15 Hi Res over the years, reflecting the evolution of AR sound from classic to modern era. Each model is quite different except for 3a and 11 with the latter being sounding cleaner to me.

As to "Older AR's or, just buy new speakers?"  I belong to the camp of " instead of either or,  why not having both new and old but make sure they are level matched and properly crossovered. 

While classic AR speakers have good bass if you like 100 db spl at 20 hz you probably still need a potent subwoofer or two. On the other end spectrum, if you need more articulated treble it is ok to add a standalone tweeter or just borrow the topend of a well design modern speaker. You can use passive crossover or active crossover such as implemented in 
 here

 

George

 

[ReliaBill Engineer]

I’ve been/am very happy with these ‘65 AR-2ax speakers. They are musical, and just great to listen to. These are now in my workshop in the garage, getting some needed cosmetic attention. Listening to some Bonnie Raitt: (Wife not happy in the kitchen. James Bond on TV….)

 

 

[frankmarsi]

I guess the above post is what they call off-topic? And it should be in the Mods, Tweaks, and Upgrades to the Classics as those AR-2ax's are modded. And here it is again, "AR-2ax: Early Midrange" https://community.classicspeakerpages.net/topic/17353-ar-2ax-early-midrange/        And it's on A.K. also, I own two pairs of AR-2ax's and have extensive listening hours with them way back in the early '70s. Although I enjoyed the many hours of listening to them, for me, they never matched the AR-3a's, are smaller-scale sounding and quite frankly feel they certainly do not deserve repeated same point (?) discussion and repeated postings of the same videos in multiple threads and forums. What is the point of such repetition?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

781