newandold
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Posts posted by newandold
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On 9/18/2021 at 11:54 AM, frankmarsi said:
“Power to the People, Power to My Speakers” or: AR speakers are best Listened and Enjoyed with High-Power Amplification.
About 50 years ago when I was a young man doing everything I could do to reach the level of better and higher fidelity in my listening, I purchased in kit form, what at the time was considered almost high power. At the time I was barely enjoying my brand new AR-3a’s because although musical instruments and voice never sounded more realistic in sound-quality because of their quality, something was sorely missing.
One interesting aspect that I noticed was I had to almost make a concentrated effort to hear cymbals and though they were seemingly there occasionally, they still weren’t vivid or crashing tingly sounding as I knew they sounded in person in the bands I had played in from 1964 onto ’73 or at concerts I had gone to. Nor did cymbals or higher register frequencies from different musical instrument’s leading and trailing edges in those ranges as I typically heard in a live performance. So, I obviously knew that in order to get more sound in the treble range I needed to turn up that tone-control but, that raised the noise-level and wasn’t very natural sounding and off balance to the overall sound. I lived that reality for a number of months all the while I was continuously reading more and more information on the benefits of good sounding balance music systems. Every chance I got, I also continued taking trips to the too few stereo stores in the boro in which I lived and on many a good day traveled by boat and subway to visit the numerous stereo stores in the boro of Manhattan, NYC which I actually started doing in 1967. This afforded me the run-in’s with eager and sometimes pushy salesmen who were more than willing to use the ‘switching’-boards’ that had the fun ability to switch between different amplifiers and speakers, turntables. My approach was to specifically hone in on my favorites of components and speakers and to immediately request what I wanted to hear.
‘What it was like in the early '70s’:
In those early years there was a new ‘phenom’ creating a stir in the then glorious world of high-fidelity. It was something that was creating somewhat of a stir for some folks while still creating a degree of confusion and I’ll tell you why.
As far back in 1971 and before, the general public was still relying upon anywhere generally speaking from 15 to 35 watts per-channel to power their stereos. That amount of watts was pretty much the going number for most folks. If someone had 75WPC which was not common, that person was big-timing-it. The knowledge of the benefits of higher-fidelity due to higher watts was relatively unknown to the masses. Besides, even though AR Corp. a number of years earlier had reached the amazing status of holding almost one-third of market-share in consumer speakers sales, the awareness or even the known necessity of high-power amplifiers was something most had no concern of even though in that and earlier period AR’s were grossly listened to with under-powered amplifiers. Much like some do today, many raise their chins in a posturing defiance insisting that their stereos sound "great" as is and certainly there is no need to play their music any louder than they do at home already. Or, not unless it was New Year's Eve and the neighbors and family were over tearing up the rug and spilling drinks on the living room floor, who needed more watts?
I’ll never forget the moment I finished building my new and not common to most, transistor amplifler (back then it was: "gee, no tubes for once"). I was now rolling in the upper echelon of ‘real’ high-fidelity because everything I read before that moment indicated that to reproduce the lower registers of bass, it required more watts and to render cymbals cleanly and clearly along with other high frequencies would all sound better if an amplifier wasn’t struggling to make the power necessary to reproduce those frequencies. An under-powered amplifier would tend to clip or distort, and sound thin therefore, modifying the original reproduced sound and not sounding realistic. With a small amp, and this apparent ’small-ness’ of sound, I wasn’t a happy listener. Mind you, I’m not implying loud. I’m talking bigger, fuller, more emotionally involving, where music has the ability to touch the heart and inspire but, with the small amp all that wasn’t there and fully realized.
‘With the hope of the future, better things will come’.
By approximately the close of the ‘60s the Crown Corp. who, known for excellent professional-studio 10-1/2” tape recorders came out with an improvement on the 1960s entry of the D-60 amplifier except, for their new entry the D-300 produced a huge (at the time), 150 watts per-channel RMS @ 8ohms. This new revelation was great except for the sometimes evident audible grainy-ness and at times stringent high-frequencies that seemed to be by-products of the ‘new’ solid-state devices being used known as the transistor. Consequently, that Crown amp was one of the only of it’s type and for a short time notable in the spread of a new dimension of stereo at the time. That was the ability to make the stereo-typical (pun intended) stereo to come-alive and reproduce and present music in a more realistic fashion. With-in a years time, a young enterprising physicist from this county’s west coast devised a similar newer design with even more power of 350wpc @8 ohms. With a fair amount of advertising Bob Carver had unleashed upon the world a evolutionary giant step in the furthering of stereo sound to offer even more realism and coming closer to the original musical experience.
‘One Thing for Certain’
With-in less than 24 months Mr. Carver introduced a 350 WPC ampliflier and later a 200WPC amp and a very innovative and excellent sounding pre-amplifier. Shortly thereafter other major companies from the USA and abroad came out with their versions of high-powered amplifiers and more flexible pre-amps, better turntables, improved phono-cartridges and cables. It was considered part of the “Golden-Era” of high-fidelity. The “Power-Wars” ensued and the race was on. More and more consumers were buying into high-power. Many other speaker manufacturers were coming out with acoustic-suspension speakers because now, the higher power necessary to realistically reproduce sound was available . And, these same manufacturers also up-ing their game by manufacturing higher power amplifiers also.
“Forgive Them for They Know Not What They Do”
There are some individuals on this forum and other forums that will and do either dismiss and dispute most of what I’ve said here. Though to me, I've been a major proponent (AKA fanboy) of AR speakers judiciously powered with high-power amplification since 1974,(what were you listening to?). I firmly believe that anyone who disagrees with my rants is primarily due to the fact that they themselves don't use anything over 200WPC.
Back In 1971, I hooked-up my brand new AR-3a speakers with a low watt Dynaco ST-35 amplifier @ 17.5 WPC hoping for the best and I was very disappointed until a few months painfully went by and I bought into another amp. Hey, great sound was all pretty new to me, I was in the process of learning, even if I knew enough already to buy AR-3a’s.
So, in less than a few months, I excitedly purchased and built a Dynaco ST-120 kit that promised 60WPC RMS with a pedal to the metal and balls to the wall 67WPC RMS at clipping. In a very short time I realized my satisfaction level was only ever so slightly elevated. This newer purchase only gave me slightly bigger bass and only slightly more realistic sounding higher frequencies in terms of ‘size’ or volume. However, that lousy amp was a mistake of a purchase. I ended up tearing it down and rebuilding major parts of it several times. By mid-late 1974 I bought my first Phase Linear PL-400 and was extremely happy ever since. In 2009 there came two PL-700's and there I rest to this day.
‘Afraid of the Watts?’ ‘Why?’
The ‘pushers’ of anything lower than 150+WPC @8 ohms with an AR-3a speaker are with-in the group of non-cognoscenti who more than likely have never spent adequate time intently listening to a system that approaches the realistic musical levels and excitement that the use of high-power with inefficient speakers affords. You’ll have nothing to fear but, the ‘new’ level of enlightened enjoyment.
Below a popular advertising piece right around the same times that I’ve spoken of. By 1972 through the end of and beyond into the early 1980’s many folks were to become believers and are certain of the ways of achieving a higher degree of reproduced musical quality because of higher amp power.
P.S. To JKent, I recall quite a few years ago a few folks using the term “Big Watts” or last week someone said “Mac-watts” when referring to their amps but, in all seriousness, there is no valid measurement either electrically or otherwise that can be measured and called ‘Big-Watts’. And if this misleading expression is valid, please explain to me and others what is meant by big-watts? Is the bass bigger, fuller, the treble higher, brighter, is it a particulat flavor or color? Do other amps get the participation award just for being there also? Beyond amps sounding different by design, I find that ‘big-watts’ term bogus and should be left to the unknowning.
It is nothing more than misinformed with misleading statements. Because, otherwise that connotation would define ‘colored’ or an editorialized sound quality and is not desirable to me.
369
I was one of those who went from the 60 WPC AR to the phase 400/2000 preamp back in 77. Everything about not enough juice came to an end, requiring only a common sense level of discretion. I’ve stayed with Bob Carver designs right up to the here and now with Sunfire Signature. I swapped the 400 after over 11 years of service for Carver’s 1.0t
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there is your link…through there, you will find that Allison group
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4 hours ago, quickjack said:
cool thx for the info i want o contact him ! i am also a writer and would like to do a story about Allison speakers !
that name is pretty common actually ! do you have any other info that might be helpfull in finding him ? i will be professional and polite!
Hopefully, he’s still with us….last time I spoke to him he was in the office 20 years ago clearing it out after the failed attempt to get the company up again. Somewhere around that time he had a heart attack, but was recovering.
The real story lies with anything and everything ROY ALLISON. You should join the Allison Speakers group (Groups.io) you’ll have to look it up on the search engine, but some of the last who are knowledgeable about RA are still there.
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2 hours ago, quickjack said:
Great well how do you do that ? ( world wide e bay search ! ) and if you hear of some i sure would appreciate you letting me know !
aanoyingly some guy bragged he has all the drivers and has been looking for some speakers for 10 years ! which is really WEIRD as surely he could have found some to buy i have seen several and i'm not looking that hard! damn hoarders!
have run in to this w/ rare auto parts too! the hoarders and their stash ? they often DIE and their hoarded parts are inevitably sold for pennies on the $ or even tossed away !
( My family KNOWS what to do w/ all my saved parts and i have their estimated worth labled on everyone of them ! LOL )
whats stupid is there IS a market for replacement speakers and there WOULD be a market for reproduction speakers ( if offered at reasonable prices ) and some bright chap COULD make a new and improved Allison type speaker design ! ( there HAVE been improvements advances in speakers ) as I was advised by Danny @ GR research who chided me for wanting to put different drivers in my Allison boxes as being too difficult to pull off and sound good !
I have asked MANY speaker kit makers to makea kit w/ the push-pull woofers at least as it DOES have advantages we could ALL benefit from ! all those 2 woofer designs are 10 Db or so full of distortion !
Allison DID have a better idea !
well i have not seen ANYONE use the Allison push-pull w/ their woofers! ( and they should ! ) as we can see failure to do so DOES cause about 10 DB of distortion ! and your twin woofers must be out of phase ? their design for the mids and tweeters is really good too but was radical then and is STILL radical ! and no one makes speakers like that anymore !
re the push pull design of the woofers :
"The Push-Pull Design used in the IC10 Speakers is used to reduce second harmonic distortion. The results are typically a 10dB reduction of distortion in the second harmonic. Allison Made use of this technique in a few other designs like the IC20, and the AL series. "That’s easy!
When you “save this search” worldwide is in the filters list.
No big deal really…a pair mostly from Italy pops up occasionally. I did once have a nice chat with somebody across the pond because of that.
You might be interested in reading my thread about the IC20’s in original boxes for 20 years! If you read that, you’ll discover I’m no stranger to Allison’s push/pull configuration. Scroll down the Allison Topics list and you will see it
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19 minutes ago, quickjack said:
yes i was told that story and could not confirm it they did respond and said " they would only make them for Allison " which DOES kind of confirm the story !
who owns the rights ? where are the plans, drawings, molds, equipment
That information was never a matter of public record to my knowledge.
David Faulkner was the name of the investor that funded and attempted to restart the company way back in 2000.
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11 hours ago, quickjack said:
need some of the hoarders to cough up some speakers! do it NOW ! ( well, that escalated quickly ! ! as they say ) LOL !
LOL is right!
I was thinking about this a bit, then realized in the past year or two, I saw a couple of the hardcore guys that I thought would never let go, part with their prized systems. That’s why I maintain an ongoing (world wide) Ebay Allison search. I’m not in need, but it’s fun to keep an eye out.
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The answer you received from eminence was incorrect actually….Allison Acoustics was originally building their own drivers, though towards the end they were outsourced, (not familiar with that detail).
The timing yes. Getting anything from the company became a nightmare around 1999. Restarting the company came and went with failure and is now fading from memory, except for those of us who were young enough and saw it coming. There is NO huge cult of fanatics out there clamoring for Allison. Just a small group of hardcores keeping an eye 👁 out.
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Just now, newandold said:
Lol!….well it appears you’ll have a blast playing around with the cabs no matter what creation you come up with (tinkering is your passion.)
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3 hours ago, quickjack said:
yes well it seems i bought them, noone else did ! only noticed later they had been modded w/ more material on the face "baffle " ? hopefully NOT a botch job !
now need someone to get them, make a simple crate of 1/4 ' ply and 2X4 's wrap them in bubbble wrap and ship them to me via greyhound bus freighter ( it is cheapest way! )
know anyone near Hull Massechusetts ?
i bought a old SAAB dealer sign some years ago and shipped that way ! just found a handyman on craigs list in the area paid him . May have to do that again ! -
13 hours ago, quickjack said:I need the OEM speaker specs so I can compare them to others! so far this driver seems interesting,as Allison midrange drivers are NLA what do you think about substituting a BMR ( balanced mode radiator ) as midrange?I read :"You can position them anywhere in the roomAnother benefit of BMR technology includes near-180 degree sound dispersion. This makes it much easier to fill a room with sound wherever you place them whilst also avoiding creating ‘sweet-spots – areas where sound quality is at its highest. Additionally, the BMR radiates sound uniformly with the same dispersion characteristics in both the horizontal and the vertical plane.In short, because BMR speakers aren’t fussy about placement, they can be positioned almost anywhere in the room and still sound great."this seems to be consistent w/ the Allison philosophy?this BMR mid is 3" would use as ONLY a mid range
I saw those cabs on EBay a while back
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10 hours ago, JohnnyTheG said:
Just to give a follow up to those who have given some very valuable suggestions to me, I finally got around to changing the position of my speakers so they would be pointing straight out instead of slightly toed in and I moved them back towards the rear wall and the change was dramatic. I got a full stereo image with proper center imaging finally and there were big improvements in the mid bass response. Who knew? All these years I was missing out on how much better these speakers could have sounded.
Thanks everyone!
I lived with both the 2a and 2ax just like that neither toed in.
The distance between was the only thing I played around with on the 2ax.The 2a’s we’re Always planted in furniture
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14 hours ago, mpfrank said:
“Many others are flat and don't fit well.”
Many?? I’ve never seen a flat surround in 44 years of being at this (just sayin’) maybe some clarification
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On 8/8/2021 at 1:08 PM, David in Hollywood said:
Anyone interested in this piece or can recommend how I move it to the next welcoming family?
That’s a tough sale, but EBay is where you will get the most exposure.
RA had no real involvement with the NL series, but they were quite good actually. I have several of the main NL systems, but no hands on experience with the subs.
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On 6/18/2021 at 10:05 AM, newandold said:
A bit of History….(if it wasn’t clear about the IC20).
The cabinets were not built by Allison Acoustics, but rather by an outside contractor.
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1 hour ago, Seahawk57 said:
Hello, Hans!!
My first Allisons were in 1980....a pair of Model Fives. Sold them for some *** reason, but now at age 64, I'm going back !
Had a pair of lc 110s I purchased from Kentucky years ago as they were closing shop.
I refoamed woofers, gave them to my friend as I had acquired a pair of Fours from eBay.
Now have CD8s, Fours, lc-125s that need work, and a pair of Ref 303BKs from SAAT( Stanford Advanced Acoustic Technology) with a Mini2 SW sub.
I just bough a pair (not arrived yet) of F-1s...but have always wondered about the ESW...do you still have it?
I'd be interested!
Thx...Roy is sadly missed...was a real gentleman and a self-taught scholar!
Doug Swindell, O.D.
Doug,
Have you considered subwoofer (SVS or similar?)
The ESW was good back in the day, but it’s day is over for a number of reasons.
Age related most of all…..
All our beloved Allison’s are rapidly aging. The ESW boost makes the old Allison drivers work harder than ever and that’s not a good thing.
An outboard powered or passive sub. does the opposite, taking that excessive work load away from the Allison’s and preserving them further.
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I grew up on the 2A (Dad). Got my own 2ax pair later on. I enjoyed them, especially because they were my own first pair of Hi Fi speakers.
They fell short, however and started searching for a bigger, more live sound.
My ears led me to the Allison:One, and I was forever hooked. I believe at the time the connection between AR and RA was purely coincidental.
The powerful sound and dispersion….there was no comparing.
I maintained those systems from 1977 all the way up to 2012, when an EBAY opportunity gave me a shot at Allison’s Flagship IC20 and that was my last stop.
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33 minutes ago, CAllyn said:
Yes, send me the contact info if you would please. I haven’t decided what to do with them yet. I have a working set in my Ones plus have secured a spare. I hate to throw them but don’t “need” them right now either.
https://www.simplyspeakers.com/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIzK_5o5Xw8QIVWv7jBx2drABQEAAYASAAEgLqOfD_BwE
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15 hours ago, CAllyn said:
I have 2 Allison done midranges on which the faceplate including the dome and coil have literally come unglued from the magnet structure. Does anyone know how to align them during gluing so the coil doesn’t rub in the gap? I haven’t tried it yet but assuming it’s almost impossible?
I’ve had several of those professionally restored. Too tedious and valuable for me to chance it myself.
The trick is sending test tones thru the driver to be certain there’s no rubbing involved (signal generator).
My guy no longer repairs Allison but Simply Speakers is one I trust to get it done. You want to contact them?
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8 minutes ago, LesE said:
Hey Bill,
I must have grabbed this from the Allison group at some point. Most likely from the old Yahoo site. I pop into the new groups.io every now and then just to find out what those guys are up to. That platform seems to work for them and that's cool but I agree that modern forums such as CSP are a more effective and convenient way to communicate.
Cheers,
Les.
Last thing I did with them was just a few months ago….Dave Moran had someone who felt he could replicate the Allison tweeter and supply them to the group….. needed a “ template” so I sent him a dead Allison tweeter to assist in the process. Haven’t heard back yet as to any progress on that…..
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47 minutes ago, LesE said:
I happen to have a copy.
Les,
So glad you came up with that here! (one stop shopping).
The Classic Speaker Pages is superior in every way to that other site and all the big New England players are here (AR) etc.
Years ago I appealed to the moderator to move everything here and I was met with extreme resistance….borderline hostility. Oh well, an agenda there for sure
Bill
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12 minutes ago, Kvn_W said:
Thanks for that! Wow, it confirms a suspicion I had, that the bass section of the 9's are electrically identical to the 3's. I had thought maybe there would be some series resistance added to the 3's woofer to balance out corner loading, but that's not the case.
Perhaps that’s because the “loading” energy from the floor is similar to the corner loading.
I have a Sonos system in my kitchen that I tuck in the corner for the same reasons the Three is in there (inspired)!
The results are indeed quite dramatic
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On 7/13/2021 at 8:42 AM, Kvn_W said:
Believe it or not, I bought back my CD-9's this week! I missed those beauties and the gentleman decided to part with them, so I jumped on the opportunity to bring them back home.
Does anyone have the crossover diagram for that model? I want to compare it to the other 3-driver models like the CD-8 or Model 3.
Thanks!
Go here. Search “Allison Speakers” and join that group, if you would like to get the schematic.
Guaranteed somebody there has it, or it’s in the files section, or both.Thought I had it, but came up dry.
Bill
Amplifier wattage for AR3a
in Acoustic Research
Posted
Frank,
That is an amazing story and historical accounting (I loved the photograph!) I do “travel” quite a bit lighter than yourself, especially because we are contemplating a move possibly in the next year or so.
My gear constantly evolves and when it does, the older is either used up, sold off or both.