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newandold

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Posts posted by newandold

  1. 46 minutes ago, frankmarsi said:

     

    2-19-2022

    @newandold, thanks for the insights and conveying your experiences. Surely, you must understand that I’ve been an avid vintage-stereo person since just before my components were actually ‘new’. Additionally, that is to say however strong and competent my components are, I wouldn’t subject them to the hard rigors of modern day recording techniques along with the inherent stress and strain of frequency and electronic sounds video would put on them.

    I was thinking more along the lines of a dedicated high power receiver (did I actually just say that? I probably don’t mean it), to handle the inrush of odd space sounds, explosions or gun fire. Not that I watch movies that include that but, you never know when you have guests over and what they might request.

    Although i may veer-off my standard beliefs, I do have in my reserve-fleet,  six Phase Linear PL-400’s and 3 pairs of AR-3a speakers enough to satisfy the requirements for a 5.1 of even a 7.1 video set-up. There's also the option of using a spare pair of AR-LST's as the front speakers though they demand being against the from wall and would complicate issues regarding video set-up.

    But, like I said, I rather put the stress and strain on some newer less valuable components than my arsenal of vintage equipment whether or not their ability to handle the rigors of modern day video productions is sustainable.

    Room wise; the den is 20 X 12.5 feet and has oak flooring. Since the house was built in 1965 it also has that then popular, wood paneling and even though it’s the thicker better quality paneling, I may have to rip it all off and install 3/8” sheet-rock, or install the sheet-rock over the paneling. The room also has as one full wall of the room, a huge fireplace which I haven’t given any thought to as to how to deal with.

    I could fabricate a panel that would slide in front of it to cover the opening. It’s all still in the planning stages as luckily, I have many options.

    FM

    3.1

     

  2. 45 minutes ago, frankmarsi said:

     

    2-19-2022

    @newandold, thanks for the insights and conveying your experiences. Surely, you must understand that I’ve been an avid vintage-stereo person since just before my components were actually ‘new’. Additionally, that is to say however strong and competent my components are, I wouldn’t subject them to the hard rigors of modern day recording techniques along with the inherent stress and strain of frequency and electronic sounds video would put on them.

    I was thinking more along the lines of a dedicated high power receiver (did I actually just say that? I probably don’t mean it), to handle the inrush of odd space sounds, explosions or gun fire. Not that I watch movies that include that but, you never know when you have guests over and what they might request.

    Although i may veer-off my standard beliefs, I do have in my reserve-fleet,  six Phase Linear PL-400’s and 3 pairs of AR-3a speakers enough to satisfy the requirements for a 5.1 of even a 7.1 video set-up. There's also the option of using a spare pair of AR-LST's as the front speakers though they demand being against the from wall and would complicate issues regarding video set-up.

    But, like I said, I rather put the stress and strain on some newer less valuable components than my arsenal of vintage equipment whether or not their ability to handle the rigors of modern day video productions is sustainable.

    Room wise; the den is 20 X 12.5 feet and has oak flooring. Since the house was built in 1965 it also has that then popular, wood paneling and even though it’s the thicker better quality paneling, I may have to rip it all off and install 3/8” sheet-rock, or install the sheet-rock over the paneling. The room also has as one full wall of the room, a huge fireplace which I haven’t given any thought to as to how to deal with.

    I could fabricate a panel that would slide in front of it to cover the opening. It’s all still in the planning stages as luckily, I have many options.

    FM

    3.1

    Vintage speakers such as yours can handle anything you throw at them with one important exception and that’s what’s getting lost here.

    A processor with crossover point settings and dedicated LFE is essential (and I realize you don’t want this) to shield your woofers from bottoming out ( over excursion). as long as you’re not clipping the rest of the material would be child’s play for a system like the 3a

    One, or a pair of subs would also be needed and you indicated no interest there….that’s ok!

  3. On 2/17/2022 at 1:29 PM, frankmarsi said:

    “What I learned 60 years ago is not common sense these days. Nor is common sense so common anymore either. On top of it all, I would never mix a dedicated music-system with a video system, that’s just me as the expression goes and quite rightly so. Additionally, my vintage stuff more than likely would not survive theexaggerated levels in modern movie sound tracks so,I’d have to think modern in any future equipmentselections I may make. For such a video I'd bring in myconventional thinking and buy into those 'chip' ampssome folks rant about reluctantly although. one ofguitar amps is 100RMS watts and class 'D'.  Oh my,heaven forbid.”


     

    For years leading up to 2000, I was determined to build one system that would render BOTH music and film 🎥 to the highest standard with A frequency range from 20,000 all the way down to 15HZ   where you feel rather than hear. 
    There are many out there who feel a dedicated 2 channel system should never be mixed with multi channel, but  with today’s modern pre. Pro. Offerings only outdated thinking stands in the way. I have owned and still have two true high end audio preamps that that just happen to have AV capability (Sunfire and Emotiva XMC1)

    I have separate configuration settings for film vs music that are tweaked depending on source material. None of my 2 channel systems of the past could out perform what I’ve got going on now!

  4. 12 hours ago, frankmarsi said:

    2-16-2022 8:30PM EST

     

    “@newandold, I too have been thinking about buying a sub-woofer ever since I hooked up a 5 inch sub woofer and sound bar to my new Sony 4K TV, it was very surprising to hear what a little speaker can do. However, I wasn’t listening for purity of tone or, quality of output sound.”

    Hi Frank,

    I use different subwoofer AND processor settings when listening to music VS. special effects movies for exactly those reasons you’re concerned about.

    12 hours ago, frankmarsi said:

    “Embarrassingly enough, I was looking into a 15 or 12 inch “SVS” which is a moderately priced unit.”

    Not embarrassing at all….SVS has tier level products and their top level stuff today is practically second to none. I’m zeroing in on the biggest SVS sub. out there now, to potentially replace the Velodyne HGS 18 that’s currently in my system. Velodyne is long gone from the subwoofer business so keeping this beast running could become problematic.

    12 hours ago, frankmarsi said:

      “My system drives four AR 12 inch woofers as it is. The sub would add additional bass to the lower regions but, I still have my reservations in terms of the actual hook-up and use.”

    Hookup is easy as is control and integration once you get into it.

     

    “I struggle with the thought of a sub-woofer and coming from being a electric bass player in my youth and a strong lover of the bass sound whether it be a stand-up bass, electric bass or organ bass notes. I’m not a fan of the exaggerated low frequencies as is found in movies that is added solely for effect. My ear/mind connection rejects that level of falseness immediately after it’s heard or felt.”

    The key to these concerns is simply making (once again) the distinction between film and music. I’m a huge fan of highly accurate bass guitar in all music….but an EARTHQUAKE should be a frightening film experience indeed.

    12 hours ago, frankmarsi said:
  5. I grew weary of the whole “how many watts” thing decades ago and got past it in 2 ways….

    1= Subwoofers:

    The Fidelity I crave (and most people) I believe and perhaps 🤔 not realizing it comes primarily from the tweeters and midrange from AR or Allison in my case and not so much the woofer sections. Much of the amplifier horsepower is needed to drive that woofer section, so if you take much of that load away with powered subs., you’ve got yourself more amp. headroom for those mids and tweets.

    Depending on the crossover point you’re using and if you were diligent in matching the subs to your mains, you’ve got it all including freq. response low enough to enjoy organ music if it pleases you without testing the limits.

    Put that together with a high power main amp and you can put the whole subject to rest.

  6. Now into my 10th year with this extraordinary acquisition of the first pair of IC20’s. (Hard to believe)!

    Operating flawlessly since the initial and very thorough going over back in 2012. 
    At 35 years “young” minus those 20 years of originally boxed storage, they have but 15 years only of careful usage, with the low end relieved (still) by the Velodyne 18” sub.

  7. High and low powered amplifiers share a common thread.

    There is PERIL with both when taken to the extreme.

    The difference?  Too Loud with high power and you’ll damage your speakers, but the amp. Will survive it.

    Try to make it loud with a “toy” amp. and probably, you’ll. Lose them both.

    I’ll take high power with discretion any day of the week 

  8. On 1/23/2022 at 1:14 PM, JKent said:

    Sorry, I was unaware of that. 

    I'm not an Allison expert. I owned a pair of Fours for years and loved them. Have also refurbished other Fours and Sixes (not CD6). I think member newandold is the resident Allison expert so I hope he'll chime in.

    If you go with a replacement you first need to be sure it will fit in the hole. Not all 8" woofers are truly the same diameter. Next, it has to be 4 ohms. There are other technical specs you don't list so I suppose a woofer that is designed for acoustic suspension use (not ported) is the next important criterion. I'll do a little looking but again, I'm no expert.

    LOL ! (Hardly an expert) just  An Allison lunatic who saw the writing ✍️ on the wall and started scarping spare parts!

    First time I saw trouble as an Allison end user was around 1994, when a woofer I ordered from the company wasn’t exactly what I expected. That being said, It played beautifully, despite it’s appearance being somewhat different.

    Fast forward past the 2000 reorganization debacle, (for myself at least) its been Ebay all the way.

    Keeping it going here for as long as possible. Still running my surround system with all original Allison drivers 28 in all, save one Velodyne Sub.

  9. 23 hours ago, surrendertoo said:

    While beginning the refoaming process I discovered one of the spiders is immobile. Like it’s paralyzed. No movement or even the ability to move. The cone is stuck in place.  I suspect it may have been that way when I got it 30+ years ago. The other spider has sagged. I think that can be addressed, but I think I’m better off replacing both woofers. 

    You’re describing a voice coil that is destroyed. The spider and the surround are the suspension components for the coil.

    There are many ways that could have happened but over driving is most often the cause.

    The spider sag is another age related phenomenon, where they “ look” fine but have lost compliance thus shifting too much burden on the surround to keep it all together.

    IMHO, spiders are the most overlooked component when do it yourselfers jump in there and replace a crumpled surround….then think everything is A OK. The reality however, is quite another thing.

  10. 14 hours ago, npt3 said:

    Just a little Saturday night post.  Since around the end of the Before Times, I’ve really expanded my audio avocation.  I restored a Citation Receiver!  And for my home office (the one I had to set up of necessity) I came into an absolutely mint Citation 17/18/19, which more than capably drove my Allison Threes until I inherited a stunning pair of KEF 105/3s (with the Kube), at which point I retired the Threes.

    Anyway. I was lucky to come upon a simply beautiful Fisher 500-C with the original walnut case, and was looking for some good speakers to pair it with in a separate room, along with an AR XA. At first I was using some found EPI 150s, which were easy to drive, but <something> was missing. As it happened, a pair of CD6s that I’d restored a couple of years ago came back to me, and I decided today was the day to replace the EPIs. 
     

    So I hooked them up to the Fisher, put ‘em up on some stands, fired up those tubes, and oh my god, everything that I fondly remembered about the Allisons came rushing back, with the added bonus of that warm Fisher sound and rendering. ❤️

    That’s a good story!

     I never had a serious listening session with the “six”, but the keyboard player of a small group I was playing with back in ‘88 had a pair book-shelved in his living room. Better in his space as opposed to something like the “four” which needed more space than he had. (I had ones at home back then.)

    He probably had them because one of the few high end stores near by (Mamaroneck NY) carried Allison at the time. I saw the 9 displayed there but again, didn’t “hear” them seriously. The dealer had only the FM radio playing thru them.

    Still hooked today, playing mostly Blu-ray films through my “Allison Home Theater” system that contains 3 pair of restored and maintained Allison speakers.

  11. On 1/1/2022 at 2:33 AM, samberger0357 said:

    Happy New Year all…

    My days of rowdy celebrations are long gone so I decided to move my A1’s into the spare room that I have set up a second system in. And for experimentation and practical purposes I have placed them on opposite long walls, more then a few feet from the front wall, facing each other, about 12 feet apart. And as I have read from others, they do indeed sound great this way. In fact even though this room is considerably smaller then my living room where they were, they are perhaps better suited for this room from a distance from walls perspective. 

    Feline Chelsea enjoys the new set up as well.

     

     

     

     

    D811B40B-F002-45A8-94EB-6E3E9E44E8CC.jpeg

    It was fun and interesting to try those different location possibilities afforded by the A1’s!

     In the 35 years that I owned them, they spent around 14 years on adjacent walls and the balance on one wall. Eleven of those “same” wall years they were kept company by the Velodyne HGS 18 Subwoofer, that brought the response clean down to 15hz.

    The opposite wall test failed….room constraints at that time prevented me from getting them close enough to the end of the room to kick the bass up.

  12. 20 hours ago, samberger0357 said:

    "Two absolute classic loudspeaker systems!  Both speakers were the best of their times and still superb!  It is fortunate that you drive them with a transformer-coupled McIntosh amplifier—capable of easily handling any load.  Paralleling the AR-3 (whose impedance drops below 3 ohms over part of the range) and the A:1 would pose some difficulty for most amplifiers.

     

    Very nice, Sam! "- Tom Tyson comments made in the Allison Speakers Google group.

    No surprise coming from Tom (and no one knows better than he).

    Tom owned the most pristine pair of Allison Ones I had ever seen…..If I recall correctly, the very last pair ever made.

     

  13. 32 minutes ago, samberger0357 said:

    Very interesting stuff. I knew that the early One's didn't have a biamp option. If I ever get a chance to own a pair of those I will. And would I ever love to find a pair of IC20's. That search is never ending.

    The biamp experiment is over, and I'm "just" using the MC2300 to power the A1's. They did fine with both amps, but in the end, simpler is better, as it usually is.

     

     

     

    Yours are superior for a very important reason. The original outboard connections for the mid range and tweeters  had been done away with And were then wired internally. By far that was the most significant improvement in those speakers.

  14. When the ALLISON:One was introduced originally, The crossover network had a horizontal “slope switch” and no Biamping connection option. When the Biamping option appeared a few years later, I always felt (speculation only on my part), That it was not Roy’s decision, But rather taken under advisement from within the company in order to be competitive with other Loudspeakers operating on that level. 
    My IC20’s are biampable by means of a toggle switch instead of the jumpers. My goal was to completely avoid the Biamp option, and I did so by fashioning 1 foot jumpers, of #12 THHN. That takes the switch with its thin lead connection out of the loop.  Each of the five channels of my Allison system, are receiving 405 watts rms@8ohm. Each of the systems is a nominal 6ohm load. The Velodyne HGS 18 Sub. continues to have the system respond down to 15HZ. Before Velodyne went out of business, the California-based company rebuilt and upgraded the class D plate amp. They are back by the way operating overseas and have expanded back to the USA.

  15. 4 minutes ago, newandold said:
    49 minutes ago, samberger0357 said:

    Giving them a vertical biamp try now and once again, they sound quite excellent. I'm getting the feeling these are those kind of speakers where there isn't a lot that you can do for them(other then proper placement and even then you have a fair degree of flexibility) for them to sound less then 

    The A1 crossover is a passive network.

    No meaningful difference would come out of it unless you’re doing it to add power to the mix.

  16. 48 minutes ago, samberger0357 said:

    Giving them a vertical biamp try now and once again, they sound quite excellent. I'm getting the feeling these are those kind of speakers where there isn't a lot that you can do for them(other then proper placement and even then you have a fair degree of flexibility) for them to sound less then 

  17. 14 hours ago, samberger0357 said:

    Just thought I'd add that while I completely agree with this statement, they sure do sound great biamped with a McIntosh MC2120 on the mid/highs, and a MC2300 on the bottom. Both amps have gain controls, and the 2120 has switchable input sensitivity  so that I can get it down to .75v which is close to the 2300's .50v .

     

    Happy holidays everyone!

    B7014-AD8-6629-45-EF-B8-D2-03-D612-F5-B820.jpg

    Is that the latest with the AR’s removed?

    They are great speakers, but the A1’s need no help!

  18. The CD 6 remains a unique and highly restorable loudspeaker.

    The tweeters could be the biggest challenge if you have a failed one (so rare) but it is the two way that is common to the A4 A5, 6, 7. 
     

    Using EBay or a marketplace of your choosing you could If needed take a tweeter from any of those and use it in yours.

    The woofers are conventional enough that they can be restored by any competent speaker repair outfit (like Simply Speakers, etc.

  19. 25 minutes ago, samberger0357 said:

    Yes I realize that. But you still can read how that won’t let you hear what the speaker fully has to offer without a lot more quality watts. And I do think that’s not wrong. But unlike a speaker like the AR3 where the recommendation was for 25 watts but it’s clear that more is better, the One’s are nowhere as picky. They get loud fast with my 1060 and the bass is pretty much as satisfying as with a 200 watt McIntosh amp. Which surprised me, thus my post.

    Meaningful also, to point out, the “super amps” of the 70’s were not on the scene yet for the AR to benefit by (though still there were plenty arriving around the same time period).

    That ease of output seen by the ones is largely due to double the number of drivers from the 3. Like so many voices added to the mix the output increase was rather dramatic.

    As if that were not enough, going from 12 drivers in the A1 to 20 in the IC’s, that additional impact was once again felt, but on a new level of live with no strain whatsoever.

  20. 7 hours ago, samberger0357 said:

    Recently acquired a 30 watt(although bench testing in the day indicated that it could hit the 40-45 watt range) Marantz 1060, and have delighted with how it handles the A1's without issue. Using a McIntosh C11 preamp, and the sound is warm, yet not without detail, and provides the same room filling experience as does the 200+ watt amps I've used. No issue with loss of bottom end either(don't know if the ESW I'm also using has anything to do with that...probably not so much) and overall an extremely satisfying combination. 

     

    Granted I don't have a huge listening room, so even when I am listening to something that I want to crank the gain with more then usual, it doesn't take much to get the speakers more then loud enough for me.

     

    Bottom  line, and as newandold indicated, one doesn't necessarily need a very big amp to get these speakers to sound good/great.

     

     

    Roy Allison himself stated (back in the day) that 30 wpc with these puppies was all it took to get 100db. SPL in a typical listening room. That would be without the ESW

  21. On 2/21/2019 at 3:31 PM, mikezohsix said:

    I understand I will not have the push pull woofers, and will not have "real" IC20's, but I'll be closer to them then I currently am with my refreshed A:1's.  I have considered the push pull, and could print the reverse woofer tube, which I may very well do if I decide to build IC20 replica cabinets.  I'm not there yet, this is an interim experiment, that may never go any further.

    I've played with stacking speakers, running multiples, and have always found the results interesting.  You gain some things and lose other things.  One of my other plans is to build a pair of either a 16 or 25 driver linear array.  More drivers seem to mean more music.  Roger Russell's, of McIntosh speaker fame in the same time frame as Roy Allison, last project was the IDS-25 array.  Look it up, it's got quite a following, and I may not be remembering correctly, but I think RA was experimenting with them also.

    Guess where I'm going with all this is I'd like to "correctly" add more drivers to the A:1.  And by correctly, I mean use the original drivers (have them), and build the IC20 cross over - which I will do.  To house the added four drivers to my "tops", I had first thought about cutting up a set of empty A:1 cabinets my son has, essentially lop the top off, flip it over, and put new top on it, and put it on top of my A:1.  I was persuaded not to sacrifice those cabinets, so will build new.  So now I'm committed to building new top cabinets, so really just want to see if RA kept the mid to tweet spacing the same as the A:1.

     I may even build the switchable cross over, haven't decided yet, but if I do, it won't be remotely operated.  So, short of the push pull, and the cabinet volume, I'll be as close as can be.  Roy is not building these anymore, and as we all know, they're extremely rare, so how would one get close? - I think the path I'm on is pretty solid.

    Not surprisingly…..it appears this project has been shelved

  22. On 11/10/2021 at 10:50 AM, samberger0357 said:

    Thanks for your comments. As always appreciated.

     

    I'm not looking to improve the bass response at this point. Really the point of my comments were to point out how, somewhat surprisingly to me the speakers had opened up and produced a sound that included a lot more bass then when they first came into my life almost a week ago. I've experienced break in with other components in the past, some very subtle, others less so. But usually with used gear that hasn't undergone any type of major surgery there's no noticeable change from when I get it. Sometimes older tube gear responds to new or fresh tubes, but that's about it. So hearing these speakers really start to generate a true, room filling experience with a very authoritative bottom end that was not there when I first started using them has been quite interesting to me. And very satisfying.

    When going from fireplace to closer to the corner, you “loaded” the bass which would explain the bass response increase.

    For sure your positioning now is about as optimal as you’re gonna get.

    The woofers could be a little stiff after being refoamed. 
    Do you know if there is any “mileage” since that was done?

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