ar_pro Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 Well, that's great news! A vintage Stereo 70 cage, maybe with a fresh powder-coat finish, would make for a very classy appearance. It's also really cool that the manufacturer has maintained the preamp power takeoff sockets and the "Phila. 4, PA" lettering, reflecting Dyna's earliest factory location. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AR surround Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 For those who are interested, here is some pricing from Bob's website: ST-120 kit including tubes: $1119 + shipping (Wired and tested $1580 + shipping.) Add $45 for capacitor upgrade. 2 x M-125 monoblocks including tubes; wired and tested: $2795 + shipping. So about $10k for a 7.1 system. Where do I sign up? LOL http://www.tubes4hifi.com/bob.htm#ST120 I wonder how many hours are vacuum tubes are expected to last before needing replacement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankmarsi Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 7-5-17 DavidR, "AR surround"' is correct about eventual tube replacement or how the newbies who have come out of the woodwork on other sites refer to it as 'tube-rolling' so, future upkeep costs are built in too. I also didn't realize the cost of this equipment being so high, then again I've dropped thousands in the last year or so on cartridges and records. FM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidR Posted July 25, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 Tubes are readily available. I have a vacuum tube CD player and a tube buffer for my other CD player. I have always found the vacuum tube CD player to have the best bass. I didn't like the tubes that are stock with the Yaqin SD-CD3 so I bought some NOS Sylvania CSN7 tubes and replaced the crap coupling caps with Mundorf poly caps. The Bob Latino VTA ST120 is not that expensive when you compare it to Audio Research, McIntosh and Conrad Johnson prices. Even used prices of those amps. The ST120 has been compared to the McIntosh MC275 and the Latino amp bests it. I have no feel for tube longevity but will ask the seller who has extensive knowledge o these amps. Typical comments from other owners>>>> "..with these amps, only warm, liquid, crystal clear sound comes forth......" If I don't like it there's a market for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankmarsi Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 I hope I'll stand corrected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidR Posted August 4, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2017 Well its been almost a week with the Bob Latino VTA ST-120. I've been listening mostly to jazz on vinyl in triode mode. Only a couple of CDs in pentode mode and triode. I now know what tube-heads are talking about. The music was sweet, fluid and WAY more depth. It was special and soooooooo enjoyable. Bass response is excellent!!! It was so much like listening to a live performance rather than a studio recording. Loving the sound. It's like the AR91's are a totally different speaker now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ar_pro Posted August 5, 2017 Report Share Posted August 5, 2017 The tube experience is how most people enjoyed their AR speakers in the '50s and '60s - there was definitely something right about it! So, what's your take on triode vs pentode mode? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidR Posted August 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2017 The pentode mode (60 wpc) delivers the full power of the amp and is more dynamic, and triode (32 wpc) is a bit sweeter. Triode has a little more mid range projection with a very slight roll off of the extreme upper and lower frequencies. In pentode the amp has a little more output at the frequency extremes. Nice for bass shy systems and systems that are a little “dark” in their top end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankmarsi Posted August 5, 2017 Report Share Posted August 5, 2017 2 hours ago, DavidR said: The pentode mode (60 wpc) delivers the full power of the amp and is more dynamic, and triode (32 wpc) is a bit sweeter. Triode has a little more mid range projection with a very slight roll off of the extreme upper and lower frequencies. In pentode the amp has a little more output at the frequency extremes. Nice for bass shy systems and systems that are a little “dark” in their top end. But, but, David, how could such a thing work for me? If I ever feel the need for things to be 'sweeter' sounding, I simply hit one of my frequency turn-over switches and walla, I've got it. Or, by using different sounding cartridges along with different tone-arms for even more options depending on the recording quality. I unlike some folks on so-called 'Hi-Fi' sites, utilize the full complement of sound shaping controls on my pre-amp and parametric equalizer all with full-power at all times. Tone-controls were made to be used. Granted many top-flight components may not even have tone-controls these days but, to me that fact leaves me at the mercy of the components designer and I'm a little more free-spirited and at times demanding than that. Vintage AR speakers up to the 3a by their very nature are just like you describe "a little “dark” in their top end". Being an AR speaker user for over 4+ decades I have always thought that they were ultimately lacking in the high-frequencies but, excellent in their mid-range and bass portrayal. Also, by being a user of high power amplifiers also for over 4 decades I've always viewed the components up stream or down stream of the amplifier as variables and have concentrated my changes on sources before the amplifiers while relying on the amplifiers as the constant. I have set-up my electronics, speakers, room and anything else in my system to give me the absolute complete spectrum of sound to be as natural sounding as possible at all times. I, of course cannot speak for the variables found with-in the recorded medium which since the time of its invention has always been an unpredictable factor. I do try to purchase certain brand names of records because some have proven better reproduction and recording quality than others. Of course, this may mean and be different things to different people in all that I have said, though there are certain standards that can be observed. FM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ar_pro Posted August 5, 2017 Report Share Posted August 5, 2017 Triode has a little more mid range projection with a very slight roll off of the extreme upper and lower frequencies. In pentode the amp has a little more output at the frequency extremes. Nice for bass shy systems and systems that are a little “dark” in their top end. That's interesting - the triode mode seems to be the way to go for midrange purity at moderate levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidR Posted August 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2017 Just now, ar_pro said: Triode has a little more mid range projection with a very slight roll off of the extreme upper and lower frequencies. In pentode the amp has a little more output at the frequency extremes. Nice for bass shy systems and systems that are a little “dark” in their top end. That's interesting - the triode mode seems to be the way to go for midrange purity at moderate levels. Yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidR Posted August 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2017 @frankmarsi I almost NEVER use tone controls. Top notch Pre amps don't even have tone controls. The only time I've used tone controls as of late would be when I rotated my 91's into my SS system in place of the 90's. I had to add bass just to tolerate the drop-off from the 90's. With the tube amp it's not necessary. I also have a vacuum tube CD player and a tube buffer for my SS CD player that has both balanced and un-balanced outputs. I find cartridge swapping to be a PITA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankmarsi Posted August 5, 2017 Report Share Posted August 5, 2017 18 hours ago, DavidR said: @frankmarsi I almost NEVER use tone controls. Top notch Pre amps don't even have tone controls. The only time I've used tone controls as of late would be when I rotated my 91's into my SS system in place of the 90's. I had to add bass just to tolerate the drop-off from the 90's. With the tube amp it's not necessary. I also have a vacuum tube CD player and a tube buffer for my SS CD player that has both balanced and un-balanced outputs. I find cartridge swapping to be a PITA. It's more than obvious that we have different ideas and experiences. Regarding the absence of tone controls on equipment to me is idiotic and feebly surrendering to what someone else has prescribed as being perfect. To assume that all program material is recorded, printed and sounds the same and is perfect is not only incorrect but, extremely limiting and controlling by many manufacturers while the buying public dumbly is accepting it. That concept is in line with the fact belt drive is better than direct-drive turntables but, let's look at that area for one moment before I go and bust a gut. Except for one or two manufacturers no one makes drive-drive turntables anylonger, did you ever ask yourself why. But, before I go on, is it not true that vinyl record masters are cut using direct-drive cutting lathes? When the Nipponese came out with direct-direct TT's for the home there were mostly only idler-drives which itself goes back to almost the very beginning of TT's. In the later fifties Garrard and Thorens TOTL tables then, which are still heralded today as some of the best were idler-drive, In the last 40+ years or more Thorens continue but with belt-drive whilst, Garrard just went to the dogs altogether. Technics first came out in 1971-2 with their direct-drive SL-1000 which even today if you can find one is cost prohibited as are their SP-10, SP-10mk2, SP-mk3 most here are considered to operate at the most accurate speeds in the industry. Shortly after the SL-1000 came out, the SP-10 along with the SL-1100a, then the SL-120mk1. After the public fell in love with direct-drives around 1973 on other than the TOTL models that I just mentioned Technics was making trashy, any one can buy it tables which for the unknowing had tainted the whole barrel and left an almost indelible incorrect opinion about direct-drives. Fast forward to today and look at the perspective some folks have about owning V__I turntables which are belt driven and on one particular ‘lofty’ site many members of that site buy from the same manufacturer giving the members this false but accepted status, that if they own such tables, that they are automatically an audiophile and every word leaving their lips is assumed to an 'expert-opinion', they're all experts on that site, or so some of these numb skulls think of themselves anyway. The ironic unbelievable fact is that same belt-drive company's absolute TOTL table is, wait for it,,,,, is a direct-drive. Yes, and they want $30,000 for it and I bet my vintage 40+year old direct-drives are at least 85 to 100% as good or better even if mine are servo-controlled. It's an obvious fact to those who understand the simple economics that mostly every company today that makes tables in the $400. to $2,000. range rely on what I call the 'saw-dust and glue' type of material for their platters. Admittedly, a good quality type of 'MDF' has acceptable acoustic properties but, it's still the cheap and easy way out and they can’t approach the higher qualities as they are built to a price-point. The actual machining and cost of production is beyond these newer companies altogether. The concrete truth is that companies today don't any longer have the 'economics of scale' as "Panasonic" or Pioneer and Kenwood once did back in the 'Golden-Era' and these new companies could never afford to make 'direct-drives' as these earlier companies once did as many newer companies are ‘boutique’, this is cost prohibited for them and the profit-margin would be lacking besides. Excuse me, I’m all roused up here. Regarding not using ‘tone-controls’. So, is it possible that recording engineers when making a recording either in studio or on location are thinking as you do. I can with-out any doubt whatsoever bet that their hands are all over the slider-controls they use to modify, alter and mold just so to their tastes either dictated by the producer or company themselves. Using certain types of microphones for certain musical instruments, baffling the drum set, dampening certain cymbals, etc. I wouldn’t even speak about how grossly deficient AR’s top end was in the ‘Golden-Era’ and folks today think it’s acceptable? OMG, how could they? Well, many haven’t a clue one way or the other and simply accept what is presented to them. From the very first moment I hooked up my AR-3a’s in 1972, I knew something was missing, as I did in the show-room when I was in my ‘audition-stages’ many, many years ago. I laid blame on poor Dyna-kit PAS-3X pre-amp and or the speakers, I wasn’t completely sure at the time being an virtual ‘newbie’ myself. I did stand-fast about the 3a’s because I had just dropped a ton of money on them ($392.), had read all of their literature and compared them to other speakers but let me backup a little bit and I’m speaking from a middle-class point of view: When I was a little kid the general public didn’t know shit from shinola about good sound quality. Oh, of course those with the funds and knowledge did but, I’m talking from the perspective that the masses were listening to tube TV’s, tube radios and some of the fortunate had a consol stereo built around tubes. Tubes were all we knew and had. The easest frequency for any amplifying device or transducer to make audible and amplify is the midrange, the easy frequency for us as humans to hear is with-in the mid-band of our standard of 20 to 20K hertz range. Back then if the disk was too scratchy sounding or bright, you’d turn down the treble, if it was bass-deffecient, you’d turn that control up. One way or the other most folks used their tone-controls. That is if they cared and had any sort of discerning ability of how music is supposed to sound. Low and behold somewhere in the later part of the last century, some high-end designer thinks that his design all out proves the quality highest of quaity available and it’s so damn accurate, it doesn’t even need tone-controls. I say really, really! I ask, if you are sitting there listening to any music USA, and the cymbals sound muted, or the bass is thin sounding, you mean to tell me that you are accepting of that and swallow that? I don’t buy-it, because that’s putting in an amount of trust that everything is perfect and you accept that as such and that you’re Okay with that. I’m not! Then again, why am I appealing to this subject, I don’t need to as I have learned and have known for many a year now. I run amplifiers of uncompromising power and drive, my speakers are AR-LST’s, my cartridges cost $2,000. to $4,000. My records were cut and printed by Columbia, London, A&M, and countless other great record companies of whom I trust and even then my ‘tone-controls’ are pretty much left in the positions I have adjusted them to, key word here, 'adjusted'. That’s because I have adjusted, tweaked and tuned my system to what I feel is the next best thing to a live musical performance. My opinion is generated by what I have learned across all of these years. I 'adjusted' them because I’ve been listening to music my entire life and I refuse to settle for what everyone else might settle for, I demand accuracy and realism of the musical ‘note’ and the complete sound a peice of music is made and projected to my mind. I don’t accept just whatever comes before my eyes, I’m selective and discerning of all that is around me. It’s my choice or I don’t participate. To put forth the notion to not use tone-controls is not only saying that a system, each component, the room, program sources, etc. etc. are perfect and don’t need to be adjusted to enable the music coming out of that system to sound as real as possible or, then perhaps the system is not producing a high resolution and accurate portrayal of music and the differences aren't revealed. Or, one just doesn’t have the where with all to discern the difference and or flat-out doesn’t care about improvement, progress or naturalness in how their system and music sound. Lastly, and I quote: “I find cartridge swapping to be a PITA.” Sorry to hear that you do, yet you’ll move heavy speaker boxes around. Apparently, our goals and concerns seem to be vastly different. I need not defend why I do things the way I do, as I have been using amplifiers, pre-amplifiers, cartridges, turntables, cable, speaker wires, and records since my late teens. The information, knowledge and lessons that I have learned are priceless, and certainly of substantial value to me. I have used those 50+ years of information gathering, learning, practice, enjoyment, and absolute musical bliss to assemble what I listen to today. The only people I would maybe not challenge who heard my system and lend comment would be Jonathan Valin, Michael Fremer, John Atkinson, Art Dudley, and a few others. P.S. CD player with tubes is a form of tone-controlling built-in! P.S. II, if the above ‘P.S.’ is an admission to the fact that tubes inherently have a softer top end and bottom end in most cases, the cognoscenti would admit to that too. FM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidR Posted August 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2017 A properly built TT with DD is better than a TT with a rubber band that can cause rumble. TT's like my Sansui SR838 and the Technics SL-1200 beat just about anything being built today IMO. Top 6 Japanese TTs Sadly this does not include TTs like Thorens, Dual and others. Nobody wants to bother to build a tight tolerance, brushless DC motor that can perform. Frank, I admire your dedication to the purist journey to hi fidelity excellence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthropologo Posted August 6, 2017 Report Share Posted August 6, 2017 Ugh - this is thread has turned into a vhs vs beta, apple vs. microsoft, xbox vs playstation, analog vs. digital, tubes vs. solid state throw down: with the predictable outcome that no one is going to change anyone else's thoughts, opinions, outlook, proclivities, or inclinations. Moderator - can this please be moved to the kitchen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidR Posted August 6, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 6, 2017 24 minutes ago, Anthropologo said: Ugh - this is thread has turned into a vhs vs beta, apple vs. microsoft, xbox vs playstation, analog vs. digital, tubes vs. solid state throw down: with the predictable outcome that no one is going to change anyone else's thoughts, opinions, outlook, proclivities, or inclinations. Moderator - can this please be moved to the kitchen? The Kitchen? Really! Does it appear heated? I like hearing Frank's opinion. I might learn something. Just because I don't bother to tweak the way he does doesn't mean I don't appreciate his method. It may come from working in industry for 35+ years around loud equipment and my ears probably can't detect the differences he's hearing. My tastes are different to Frank's. I bet he's not listening to Blues like Stevie Ray at 100 dB like I do or even some of the jazz I like at moderate levels. I think those are key differences to why we each do what we do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankmarsi Posted August 6, 2017 Report Share Posted August 6, 2017 This is DavidR's thread about what he's using to power his AR speakers. How we listen to our speakers and comparing what we think works best in our given situations. It certainly is esthetically more fun to read than the usual fare about the 'cabinet-sanders', the 'pot-scrubbers' or, the 'spider-gluers', and the 'cappers', recapping. No one is insisting that you agree or disagree, or even read it. Asking the 'moderator' to can it is pretty rude and interruptive, might you have something of value to add to this thread besides merely complaining and insisting what the posters here should do to please you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankmarsi Posted August 6, 2017 Report Share Posted August 6, 2017 I like what I'm reading from DavidR as his system is growing and he speaks of slated and positive changes in using AR speakers. And I like to hear him say: ""Frank, I admire your dedication to the purist journey to hi fidelity excellence."" especially because I've done the best I could with what I had and could afford. In fact I'm playing to some jazz rite-now but, I'm 30 feet away from my speakers sitting at my desk. I find it amazing how the LST speaker can actually cause me to jump up and run into the living because it's sounding so good that I've got to experience it. It's a single disk out of a box-set of 100 disks printed in Italy in the early 1980's. Sadly, I only was able to find about 60 or so disks in one shot most in 'minty' condition, cleaned them and they make my Acoustic Research Speakers sound so much like, well AR speakers should. I'm joking in light of the "UGH". The set includes many early jazz players through out the '40s, '50s, right up to the early '80s and has increased in value lately as I've been following it's popularity here and there looking for more. It was printed in Italy, is of remarkably high quality when the originals permit and is called " I Giganti Del Jazz", aka, "The Giants of Jazz. The label is "Armando Gurcio", I highly recommend it. P.S. If you want to look for a sampling of quality and fun jazz, look for album number 50, so far my favorite. I have seen the full collection at over $500. Nonetheless, it appears to be quite rare. P.S. II excuse me, I've got some pots to scrub and sanding to do. Just kidding as I've always been a listener and have never performed any wood working efforts on my speakers except for using my ears. Though, if I ever do restore my 3a's I will have to do some recapping and pot scrubbing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthropologo Posted August 6, 2017 Report Share Posted August 6, 2017 LOL - humble bragging vs. strident correctness and the third party observer / commentator is the problem - classic thread narcissism.....y'all have a good one and enjoy the music and you're right - i'll defer on this scintillating convo moving forward - cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ar_pro Posted August 6, 2017 Report Share Posted August 6, 2017 I've owned the belt-drive Thorens TD-125 MKII and the direct-drive Technics SL-1210 MK5, both fitted with the SME 3009 Improved arm, and I have a very strong preference for the Technics, which - like virtually all top-of-the-line DD turntables - hasn't a hint of drift or speed instability. The Thorens might have a more feedback-resistant design, but that - fortunately - has not been a consideration for me, and the overall fit & finish of the SL-1210 is better in all respects. A side note: I've never liked either the original Technics arm, or the Thorens arm, considering the range of SME arms (with a high-compliance cartridge) to be perfectly adapted and an improvement for either of these turntables. At their introduction, both of these systems were pretty well-regarded, but they have certainly been eclipsed in price if not in quantifiable performance over the past 40 years; I cannot speak to the benefits of current ultra-high-end record-playing equipment, but I absolutely believe that the engineering & manufacturing skill behind these two respectable, sub-$1000 'tables is leaps & bounds superior to what's currently being offered in the same price range. As some may know, Technics has re-entered the turntable market with new variations of the classic SL-1200 design that incorporate improvements to their direct drive system. Technics mentions the elimination of "cogging" in their new drives, which might put to rest the most often-heard argument in favor of belt drive systems. Having never been able to perceive the effect of "cogging", I'll take their word for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidR Posted August 6, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 6, 2017 12 hours ago, Anthropologo said: LOL - humble bragging vs. strident correctness and the third party observer / commentator is the problem - classic thread narcissism.....y'all have a good one and enjoy the music and you're right - i'll defer on this scintillating convo moving forward - cheers No. It's a matter of preference (and budget). Just because Frank likes variety A and I like variety B doesn't mean one is wrong and the other right. We are both right because that's what WE like. Frank suggests an MC phono cartridge because he likes what he can hear. I bet he's right, from what I've read and others say they beat out MM. However, when you have several hobbies and a son about to go to college I have to be happy with my MM cartridges. If money wasn't an issue I wouldn't be buying Emotiva gear and Bob Latino VTA amps. I'd buy Audio Research, Krell and other high-end gear. But I'd still buy AR speakers. .........and sometimes I like to tease Frank buy calling a belt drive a rubber band................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidR Posted August 6, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 6, 2017 11 hours ago, ar_pro said: As some may know, Technics has re-entered the turntable market with new variations of the classic SL-1200 design that incorporate improvements to their direct drive system. Technics mentions the elimination of "cogging" in their new drives, which might put to rest the most often-heard argument in favor of belt drive systems. Having never been able to perceive the effect of "cogging", I'll take their word for it. I'm not sure I can hear cogging either. The SR838 has Quartz control and pitch control modes. I prefer pitch control. Why? Not sure but there is the slightest improvement in smoothness to the sound. I swear that in quartz mode I can see the slightest back and forth walk with the strobe on the platter markings. It's not a big difference by any means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ar_pro Posted August 6, 2017 Report Share Posted August 6, 2017 The Thorens TD-125 had the observable back & forth motion of the strobe that you've described, David, but the Technics in Quartz-lock mode doesn't budge. We once owned a very nice Sansui XR-Q7 for about a year, and it was a terrific turntable, with an arm that did an excellent job. It was completely annihilated by a nearby lightning strike, and it was the last turntable that we had until the past couple of years. Check out the description: https://www.vinylengine.com/library/sansui/xr-q7.shtml Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidR Posted August 6, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 6, 2017 Looks like great specs. The wow and flutter is basically non existent. I picked up a Technics SL-D2 for my son off of CL at a great price. It too is dead on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankmarsi Posted August 6, 2017 Report Share Posted August 6, 2017 Even though I'm a dedicated 'rock' fan, I'm also a lover classical, jazz and other types of music. Then there are certain disks that I use for what I call 'Show-Off' disks. Their genre doesn't matter as I use it to show-off my sy These disks must be in excellent condition to start with from a quality label, must have exciting transients, great peaks that can bite because in person brass instruments can bite, good bass, clear transparent highs and excellent soundstage ability, and good musically, of course. So, here's one for DavidR and ar_pro and anyone else who has the desire that I bought on the bay in good condition 2 weeks ago. I highly recommend side one as the better of the two sides. I was too preoccupied with other matters when it first came out in '84 and ignored it. And DavidR, if you can't feel the bite of the brass and the crystal cymbals, start touching those tone-controls, cause something ain't rite. The Cotton Club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.