Bi-amping AR9 with tube amp on upper end ???

[DavidR]

Frank, I never thought of you as a rock music fan. Classical and jazz, yes.

Who is it that you like?

I'll look into this Cotton Club.

I can hear cymbals just fine; especially on my restored AR91's. Also, if your pounding the music at 90 to 110 dB then you really don't need tone controls. I used to use them but with the better gear I've acquired I've found I don't need to augment. I'm not against it by any means.

[frankmarsi]

DavidR, the shorter list would be, who don't I like in rock?  I also played in a number of good local bands from 1964 to 1973.

I must state that I go back to listening to the first kinds of rock and roll going back to 1953-4 because my older sisters listened to the early stuff on the radio and 78 shellacs.

Just one thing, the levels you are mentioning seems a little too out of the ordinary.

When I'm cranking hard, when friends are here and we've lost it, peaks might hit 103 tops and I stress instantaneous peaks of a split second or so though, I've seen 106db maximum, again instantaneous not the average sound coming out of the speakers which might be in the 70 to 85db range dependent on the input.

That's powering each, I repeat each, LST with over 600+ clean un-stressed watts RMS per-channel at 4 ohms X's four speakers  while listening to heavily recorded hard hitting powerful crescendos and peaks like a strike of a very loud power-chord or overly loud recorded rim-shot, or everyone in the band getting carried away at the end of a song and killing it, or the power of a full orchestra in a huge crescendo. These measurements are sitting on a sofa 15 to 17 feet away from the speaker cabinets.

I'm running monster amps with fans going that are hard to equal in their output unless you actually have something bigger for amplifiers along with physically  larger radiating speakers?  The room's large dimensions are 26 X 13 there is pass-thru open single wall at one end into the dining room, otherwise, the room is 26 X 13 unto itself. Just look at the set-up and if you can imagine what's going on.

I feel that you may be measuring incorrectly?

There's an  A or C weighted in measurement with a level meter, and you'd have to specify with more precise info so that I can imagine and understand.

85 to 95db is like standing 25 feet from a loading garbage truck for an idea, 85db or more standing next to a larger gas lawn tractor while fully revving.

120db is the excruciating threshold of ear pain which I doubt you're listening to, nor do I or we'd both be deaf by now.

FM

The above shot was taken with a cheap cell-phone at 15 feet away from the speakers, and sitting at the opposite wall across from the equipment. A wide-angle lens will distort perceptive inherently.

FM

[AR surround]

David and Frank: Those SPL's you are talking about would give OSHA fits!!!

[frankmarsi]

I did urge caution.

But really, DavidR is not listening that loud, something is being inaccurately reported.

[DavidR]

Frank, its seems as if you started your music listening 10 years before I did. When I was around 11 or 12 my best friend had a brother who was in college. When he'd come home for the summer he would bring his albums: Muddy Waters, Bob Dylan, B.B. King, Little Walter, Howlin' Wolf, etc. We'd always listen to them and loved it. The when the Beatles came along we would be listening to the radio more and it was The Who, Cream, Stones, Mountain, Zeppelin, etc. I also picked up on Traffic which got me into jazz. Once that era ended I went back to the Blues and Jazz.

I was an Environmental, Health and Safety Mgr and used a dB meter quite a bit. It would be the A-scale that my meter uses. My listening area (as of right now) is quite small so I'm sitting about 6ft from the speakers. My 901_II speakers in the Family Room are even louder but you can't turn them up more than I have AND stay in the room. I'm also not subjecting myself to a constant 100+ dB for any extended period - not like I used to.

[frankmarsi]

Hi, I would imagine sitting at six feet away from the speakers would dictate that you wouldn't turn it up very much at all. Certainly, if I stood closer to the speakers the readings would be higher, but sitting 15 feet away my ears are a little safer. I recommend being careful sitting as close as you say you do.

I'm still thinking that your reported numbers are a little high and if these are the levels, caution is advised.

My measurements are not scientific of course but, to see how nuts I'm getting when I do turn-up the volume, the meter is used to protect my ears and speakers.

If I were to get real crazy with the volume control, of course I'd blow the FNM2 speaker fuse first or a driver.

FYI,1965 Steve Winwood was 15 years old and his first hit then was 'Gimme Some Lov'in' which was a big hit.

Ten years ago I received some flack from a couple members on this site because of my loud listening habits, I have since become a little more conservative as I've smartened up, I think.

In my teens while playing in bands, I didn't care as much as I do now, though some common-sense did prevail.  I've always been aware that after a half hour or so of loud listening, one's ears become accustomed and turning up the volume more could be damaging. 

I use high power amplifiers because in these last 50 years I learned that more power affords cleaner sound, more depth, greater detail and spaciousness, henceforth more realism. But, like a gas pedal in a car, one can get stupid.

Using my LST's and knowing the power-hogs that they are, and additionally influenced by meeting an AR executive in 1990 who told me that he and a few other execs in Britain were in the mid '70s using stacked LST's with two PL-700's amplifiers just set me off on my merry way to do the same.

[DavidR]

1 hour ago, frankmarsi said:

I use high power amplifiers because in these last 45 years I learned that more power affords cleaner sound, more depth, greater detail and spaciousness, henceforth more realism. But, like a gas petal in a car, one can get stupid.

 

 

Exactly correct. The better, more powerful gear I've acquired I have found that I do not have to play it loud to get the enjoyment of the music.

When I play it loud I'm normally not sitting but moving about the room. When standing my ears are not directly in front of the speakers. When I say 110 dB that is not constant but a peak. I'm not as reckless as I used to be. But some songs/some passages I push the pedal.

[AR surround]

David, as a former EH&S professional, you know that 85dB over an extended period of time can cause permanent hearing loss.    I try to limit peak levels at the listening position to 85dB with occasionally going somewhat higher.   In addition to a SPL meter, I have another device called "wife" that lets me know when the music is too loud.   But then I have to scold her when she uses the leaf blower without ear protection.

[frankmarsi]

AR surround, that's very funny.

I too started using ear-plugs recently when using gas powered outdoor tools. It noticed a big difference to my ears when I'm finished using the tools.

Until recently, I when finished working outside, I'd come inside, turn on the system and it would not sound the way I thought it should, I'd have to turn it up more than I normally do.

[harry398]

On 7/24/2017 at 10:24 PM, AR surround said:

For those who are interested, here is some pricing from Bob's website:

ST-120 kit including tubes: $1119 + shipping (Wired and tested $1580 + shipping.)  Add $45 for capacitor upgrade.

2 x M-125 monoblocks including tubes; wired and tested: $2795 + shipping.  

So about $10k for a 7.1 system.   Where do I sign up?  LOL

http://www.tubes4hifi.com/bob.htm#ST120

I wonder how many hours are vacuum tubes are expected to last before needing replacement?

 

Bob Carver has a trick he wires into the tube amps, makes the tubes last 30 years.

 

I have  NO interest in tubes.....I prefer the Carver 4.0    plenty of BALLS, with great sound.

 

Right now I have a tfm 42 hooked to the Nines......   gets really loud, and the meters just start to move  LOL

I have to thank my brother for the Carver gear.......