AR-9 / AR-90 Crossover Re-capping Adventure

[iso]

Has Erse gone belly up as I tried to ask some questions about parts I need for my various projects but never got reply to my e-mail... or is this how they do business all the time?

Kimmo

[Carlspeak]

It's been my experience that Erse is a small company that makes and sells speaker parts. Seems they like large orders and have a rather high $ minimum order threshold. So, it's no surprise to me it takes considerable time to not only answer questions, but also just to fill orders. Their coils are wholesaled to Parts Express, but they keep their caps to themselves to sell. 

[DavidR]

12 hours ago, iso said:

Has Erse gone belly up as I tried to ask some questions about parts I need for my various projects but never got reply to my e-mail... or is this how they do business all the time?

Kimmo

I have always had issues with the outlet they use ( J&C Group, Inc) to sell their caps. Very slow. They don't carry (in stock) all the items listed on the website.

I also wonder who you can get the top ERSE caps from - the C-Cap.

It's too bad as they do have lots of sizes other companies do not.

I've given up on them and have yet to use any of the caps I bought from them (Pulse-X, mylar and some npe) so I can't attest to their SQ. I also got tired of getting one cap a percent low and the other a percent high.

[harry398]

On 1/24/2017 at 12:08 AM, RoyC said:

Hey David,

Well, you motivated me to tear into some caps, as I found a red and black AR cap in the stash. Attached are photos of it, as well as several other new npe's after dissection. I also included photos of a dissected AR "wax block" cap from an AR-5.

Every capacitor below is an electrolytic capacitor. Aluminum foil and/or aluminum oxide deposited on film (the film you saw) is in every one of them. What makes them "electroytic" is the oily liquid or semi-liquid electrolyte impregnated paper rolled up with it. (The paper in the old wax block actually has a petroleum odor and is rolled up with a thicker foil.) As better electrolytes were developed and manufacturing techniques became more precise, npe's became smaller. Note that the use of foil and oxide film in these caps does not make any of them a "film and foil" capacitor, which is a type of film cap. Film caps are dry...no electrolyte.

Btw, after looking at the innards, I concur that Erse are not the best npe's to use. Even though I've been able to verify that they measure (just) within stated spec at 1000hz, they are smaller, and their construction does not inspire confidence.

So while you guys debate the unmeasurable "nuances" of various brands of film caps, or by-pass film capacitors, make sure to keep in mind the very measurable differences of the original (as well as new) npe capacitors. If after a re-cap, a tweeter or mid is sounding too bright or harsh (compared to before) it is extremely unlikely to be due to the brand of film cap, or due to a missing by-pass cap. It is simply due to the removal of up to an ohm of resistance in the circuit, as well as differences in npe behavior at varying frequencies.

I'm not saying not to use film caps. I use them often...and it is fun to experiment and speculate. Most people are happy with the outcome. It just makes me smile to read discussions about Clarity vs Solen vs Dayton vs whatever film caps, given the greater variables to consider in 40 year old speakers.

Roy

 

back to information sharing.

 

I can say, Without a Doubt, I had audible issues with ERSE yellow poly caps on my AR9lsi.   I finally narrowed it down to that cap after trying resistors, but was still harsh

I swapped in a Dayton Poly with a bypass, and  WALA     muchhhhhh smoother, and speaker doesnt irritate my ears.   So on the point where people cannot hear the difference in caps , I disagree.    Or that people Can hear Harshness.......and for whatever reason certain poly caps may create that.  Not all.

 

However Roy, I agree with you 100 % in your assessment that NPE caps are all we need in these speakers.   I have recapped around 10 sets of speakers now, (yes I am new at this) and everytime I use straight NPE caps I am 100% satisfied.   Other times I have used Dayton - Audyn Poly caps mixed in, I am also happy, however results are not always significantly Better.   Yes the Poly in theory may last longer, maybe........

For example, I have 2 sets of AR98ls I did a test on.   I recapped one in Pure NPE, and the other I mixed in Polys on mid and Tweeter circuit.   The result was the NPE ar98 was improved, more focused and smooth as glass.   The Poly capped ar98ls was also improved, a bit more clear and also smooth as glass.  The difference was slight, but it WAS and IS there.  

This had me in a headache mode for months about the AR9lsi (which I bought from a Audiokarma guy that did Very Good work in rebuilding the speakers).   They were nice, but they irritated my ears everytime on the midrange,   and it did not make sense since the drivers and crossover was the same.  4 weeks ago I added bypass caps on mids and tweeter,  slight improvement, but still irritating and not smooth.    2 weeks ago I CUT THOSE ERSE YELLOW caps out, and soldered in the dayton poly's  I had layying in a box...HUGE improvement.    Still I hear that tweeter circuit now......that damn Yellow POLY erse...

 

My plans on the 9lsi?   It will get ALL NPE CAPS.    they are cheaper, sound almost if not as good, and not one time did it make any speaker harsh.   I may have had bad experiences with the yellow turd,  but it hit home about importance of caps.

 

If this Helps 1 Person who has had problems with harshness and has those stupid Yellow erse caps inside,  I will be Happy.    DITCH them.  cut them out, and round file them.

 

 

[harry398]

On 1/22/2017 at 11:55 PM, RoyC said:

Thanks for the reminder, and the link to your measurements, Carl. They are consistent with John O'Hanlon's findings. I agree...those red and black caps are unlikely to be any different than those found in KLH and other speakers of the era. You've also confirmed the high ESR associated with these caps. David had me wondering what it was he saw when he opened his specimen, but Kent reminded me of John's comments, which were very specific and very much in line with your findings.

I've been intrigued at the behavioral differences between film and electrolytic caps of late. Although it is less pronounced than the black and red variety, it is apparent that even new electrolytic cap values rise as frequency goes down (unlike film caps). It is why many mainstream capacitor meters are showing high readings for new npe's. These meters are measuring at frequencies as low as 8hz.  I'm also finding Erse npe caps to be physically smaller and more variable than others (Parts Express and Bennic). I won't be using or recommending Erse npe's in the future.

Roy          

 

 

 

pictured are a dayton .01 bypass.  notice alot of film with foil

 

Erse, all foil is what i see.

 

 

[AR surround]

3 hours ago, harry398 said:

...However Roy, I agree with you 100 % in your assessment that NPE caps are all we need in these speakers.   I have recapped around 10 sets of speakers now, (yes I am new at this) and everytime I use straight NPE caps I am 100% satisfied.   Other times I have used Dayton - Audyn Poly caps mixed in, I am also happy, however results are not always significantly Better.   Yes the Poly in theory may last longer, maybe........

For example, I have 2 sets of AR98ls I did a test on.   I recapped one in Pure NPE, and the other I mixed in Polys on mid and Tweeter circuit.   The result was the NPE ar98 was improved, more focused and smooth as glass.   The Poly capped ar98ls was also improved, a bit more clear and also smooth as glass.  The difference was slight, but it WAS and IS there.  

This had me in a headache mode for months about the AR9lsi (which I bought from a Audiokarma guy that did Very Good work in rebuilding the speakers).   They were nice, but they irritated my ears everytime on the midrange,   and it did not make sense since the drivers and crossover was the same.  4 weeks ago I added bypass caps on mids and tweeter,  slight improvement, but still irritating and not smooth.    2 weeks ago I CUT THOSE ERSE YELLOW caps out, and soldered in the dayton poly's  I had layying in a box...HUGE improvement.    Still I hear that tweeter circuit now......that damn Yellow POLY erse...

 

My plans on the 9lsi?   It will get ALL NPE CAPS.    they are cheaper, sound almost if not as good, and not one time did it make any speaker harsh.   I may have had bad experiences with the yellow turd,  but it hit home about importance of caps.

 

If this Helps 1 Person who has had problems with harshness and has those stupid Yellow erse caps inside,  I will be Happy.    DITCH them.  cut them out, and round file them.

 

 

Harry,

Don't hesitate to try those little Dayton F&F bypass caps across the NPE's.    I did so on the UMR Mundorf E-Caps on both my AR9's and AR90's and it made a significant difference.   In my case I considered it an improvement.

I also recapped a pair of Boston A70's with NPE's and did not like the results even after adding a 0.5 ohm inline resistor.   I then tried Dayton F&F bypasses and the improvement was remarkable.   Perhaps the main contribution of the F&F bypass caps is that they increase the ESR of the circuit...I really have no idea because I haven't measured the results.   Hey, so what if it is indeed due to simply increased ESR because the bypass caps are cheap and easier to retrofit than an inline resistor.

[harry398]

16 minutes ago, AR surround said:

Harry,

Don't hesitate to try those little Dayton F&F bypass caps across the NPE's.    I did so on the UMR Mundorf E-Caps on both my AR9's and AR90's and it made a significant difference.   In my case I considered it an improvement.

I also recapped a pair of Boston A70's with NPE's and did not like the results even after adding a 0.5 ohm inline resistor.   I then tried Dayton F&F bypasses and the improvement was remarkable.   Perhaps the main contribution of the F&F bypass caps is that they increase the ESR of the circuit...I really have no idea because I haven't measured the results.   Hey, so what if it is indeed due to simply increased ESR because the bypass caps are cheap and easier to retrofit than an inline resistor.

Hello AR surround.

Yes, I do run those .01 daytons on my Dayton NPE caps.   I like the results, and generally I have been doing that for the last 5-6 recap jobs.   When I say I am very pleased with the NPE results, those little .01 are involved. 

Interesting about the BA speakers.   In the end, all that matters is the sound is smooth and accurate to me. 

I have followed your progress on your ar9 and ar90.   It was nice of you to share all that!

  I recapped my ar9's this week.  I went with all NPE with bypass's on mid circuit and went with Dayton poly on tweeters with .01 bypass.  Results?  Fantastic!!!     If anything, I wanted to try NPE on the tweeter, my i got a bit jumbled when I made a big order from parts express.    I played them last night again on medium to low level.  Tremendous speaker.  Very well balanced.  Neutral.  I dont understand how some people think its overbearing on bass, it is NOT.     The designers of the ar9 did a great job.   I would love if they would stop in here and "pontificate on their achievements" LOL

 

I have learned alot, and I am still learning.  What I do know, is my top 2 performers are the ar9 and ar9lsi.   I am surprised the ar3a is now 3rd...and that happened when i changed out those erse caps from the ar9lsi.  catapulted the ar9lsi ahead of the ar3a in terms to total enjoyment and smoothness.