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AR-9 / AR-90 Crossover Re-capping Adventure


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Potentiometers for AR90's:

I've been listening to my newly recapped AR-9 / AR-90 surround sound system (with its spectacularly low WAF) for about 10 days.   I started with the attenuation switches for the tweeter, upper mid and lower mid at -3dB.    After a few days off, I now find the sound of the recapped speakers to be way too much "in your face."   Hi-resolution surround sound SACD's and DVD-A's that I once considered perfect demonstration discs when I had the old capacitors now sound way too intense.   The upper mid-range seems to be the culprit and I have obtained a more satisfactory result by setting that switch to -6dB on the front speakers.   However, I believe that an idea setting would be somewhere between the -3dB and -6dB levels.

Does anyone have a recommended pot that I can substitute for the switches currently in the AR-90?   Thanks.

 

 

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While some don't believe in 'it', give the new capacitors time to break in.  You could even let the system play while you're away each day, to give more burn in time.  Forty to 100 (or more) hours of play, will help the caps to settle in, and mellow out.  The peakiness should go away over time. 

As to modding the speakers to add LPads, I'm not sure?  I wouldn't want to change my 90s that drastically.  Plus, I believe LPads could present a different impedance to the crossover.  That wouldn't be good...  I hope others will chime in too.  Greater minds, and all...  Good luck.

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I always found the UMR to be out in front (with many amps and pre-amps).

It would be better to get a CD with pink noise and play it for hours. They sell them on eBay. I'll look for a link and post it later.

Absolutely nothing happens to the capacitor by playing it when new.

Here is an email exchange with Michael Jantzen on the subject:

Hi Mr Jantzen,

A while back you were very kind and took the time to explain some facts for me on capacitor selection for my Acoustic Research 90 speakers. I thought you would be a great person to answer the following question: It's a long held belief by many in the audio world that capacitors need time to 'break-in' before they sound good or sound their best. I'm of the opinion that your ears 'break in' and nothing is happening to the capacitor. As a person involved in the manufacture of audio capacitors is there anything physical that happens to the capacitor that would cause it to change it's sonics or is it all about your ears becoming accustom to the new sound?

Thank you for your time, David

RESPONSE>>>

Hello David

Thank you for your mail.

I will be happy to give you our opinions/views on audio related subjects. 

Please do note that I cannot decide if something is myth or fact, but only tell you what we think, based on our years of experience.

We believe that if a capacitor is made with high quality materials and with the proper winding method and overall care with build quality, it will sound the same from day one and until it no longer performs as it should.

For drivers, it is a different story as there are moving parts like membranes, voice coils etc.

Like with a new car it needs to be driven for a while to get the full potential from the engine, gearbox and other main components, much the same with speaker drivers.

The mind is a very powerful thing and if you tell yourself that a capacitor will sound better or different after i.e. 100 hours of play, then I am sure that it will sound different.

I think listening to speakers is like smelling perfumes in a perfume store or going to a wine tasting.

At some point, you will need to clean your pallet, because you will have sensory overload and everything will taste, smell or sound the same or you will have convinced yourself that things are different, because your senses are too saturated to give you an honest answer.

I think that if you buy some nice and expensive capacitors, you should give them a listen.

Then go do something else for a good long time and clear your senses, then go listen again with a fresh mind.  

There are a lot of clams, superstition and “magic” in the audio industry and we would like to think that we have a pragmatic “Scandinavian” approach to making audio related products.

We want our products to have a purpose and to be of high quality.

Yes, we do want our customers to have many choices and to offer new and exciting products, but we never launch a product until we are sure that it serves a technical purpose and that it has the quality and sound that is fitting for a Jantzen Audio product.

If someone can show me proof that a human ear can detect any difference for one of our Superior Z-Caps @ 1 hour of play and @ 100 hours of play, I will gladly change our view on the subject.

At Jantzen Audio we only care about what makes music sound better/different to the human ear.

We do not waste our time with things that are only improvements or changes on a theoretical level.

It would be like saying that we had created a dish using a very exotic spice at 5000$ per ounce, but no human can taste the difference if we add to in the dish or not.

Would you a restaurant the extra 5000$ for such a dish? J

I hope you can use my thoughts on the subject.

I wish you a nice day and a merry Christmas.

Michael

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Here is a monkey wrench thrown into the mix:   Tonight I changed the settings on the attenuation switches on the tweeters from -3dB to 0dB; and brought the Upper Midranges (UMR) back to -3dB.   The LMRs remains at -3dB.   Now everything sounds great again.   Doh!

So I started my listening tests 10 days ago with the tweeter, UMR and LMR all at -3dB.  These settings initially sounded very good to me.   I took a few days off from using the system and last night it sounded overbearing on heretofore great sounding hi-resolution discs...specifically the UMR was too bright and I had to kick it down to -6dB.   Tonight I counter-intuitively juice up both the tweeter and UMR by 3dB and all is well.   Why?   Is it the relative balance between the tweeter and the UMR?   Could it be that I had not used the system for a few days and it was cold in the basement.   I mean the kind of cold where I had to put a blanket over my lap.   I don't believe that it was cold enough to affect the amplifiers and solid state components, but perhaps it affected the speaker drivers?   Or is it just moody hearing in my aging ears?

Anyway, I'll dispense with the idea of replacing the switches with pots.

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10 hours ago, Stimpy said:

While some don't believe in 'it', give the new capacitors time to break in...

I agree with DavidR about capacitors and burn-in. If you do believe in capacitor burn-in, think about this. If there is a real improvement in sound quality, and it is properly attributable to 'burn-in', and the 'burn-in' period is not something that the designers/engineers recognise or have measured, then I would worry that after a further period of time, the golden sound era following burn-in may end with a period of 'over-burn', with the sound returning to its former state or maybe further degraded. It is strange how we never hear of this opposite burn-out phenomenon. We only hear the positive side of 'burn-in'.

The email DavidR quoted from Michael Jantzen makes perfect sense as to why we may believe there is an improvement.

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8 hours ago, AR surround said:

Here is a monkey wrench thrown into the mix:   Tonight I changed the settings on the attenuation switches on the tweeters from -3dB to 0dB; and brought the Upper Midranges (UMR) back to -3dB.   The LMRs remains at -3dB.   Now everything sounds great again.   Doh!

So I started my listening tests 10 days ago with the tweeter, UMR and LMR all at -3dB.  These settings initially sounded very good to me.   I took a few days off from using the system and last night it sounded overbearing on heretofore great sounding hi-resolution discs...specifically the UMR was too bright and I had to kick it down to -6dB.   Tonight I counter-intuitively juice up both the tweeter and UMR by 3dB and all is well.   Why?   Is it the relative balance between the tweeter and the UMR?   Could it be that I had not used the system for a few days and it was cold in the basement.   I mean the kind of cold where I had to put a blanket over my lap.   I don't believe that it was cold enough to affect the amplifiers and solid state components, but perhaps it affected the speaker drivers?   Or is it just moody hearing in my aging ears?

Anyway, I'll dispense with the idea of replacing the switches with pots.

Well that makes sense.  If too forward, dropping the UMR by -3dB around both the tweeter and LMR, would level out the balance.  Now why the initial -3/-6/-3dB settings worked, and then didn't work; I have no idea?  Unless it's the caps breaking in and changing in sound???   ;) 

As to the validity of capacitors breaking in, again, I have no idea.  While I really don't think we have a grasp on everything that needs to be measured, and how to measure it, I tend to trust my ears.  If I hear differences, that's all I need.  Are those differences real and valid, or me just adjusting to the new sound, I don't really care.  It's a moot point.  I hear what I hear.  If I like what I hear, I'm good with that.  If not, it's off to round 2 of the mods and experimentation!  Or, new speakers...!   :D  Regardless, I'm truly happy for the OP.  Me, I like the thought of a recapped 90/9 system.  It can't get much better than that.   :P

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13 hours ago, DavidR said:

I always found the UMR to be out in front (with many amps and pre-amps).

It would be better to get a CD with pink noise and play it for hours. They sell them on eBay. I'll look for a link and post it later.

Absolutely nothing happens to the capacitor by playing it when new.

Here is an email exchange with Michael Jantzen on the subject:

Hi Mr Jantzen,

A while back you were very kind and took the time to explain some facts for me on capacitor selection for my Acoustic Research 90 speakers. I thought you would be a great person to answer the following question: It's a long held belief by many in the audio world that capacitors need time to 'break-in' before they sound good or sound their best. I'm of the opinion that your ears 'break in' and nothing is happening to the capacitor. As a person involved in the manufacture of audio capacitors is there anything physical that happens to the capacitor that would cause it to change it's sonics or is it all about your ears becoming accustom to the new sound?

Thank you for your time, David

RESPONSE>>>

Hello David

Thank you for your mail.

I will be happy to give you our opinions/views on audio related subjects. 

Please do note that I cannot decide if something is myth or fact, but only tell you what we think, based on our years of experience.

We believe that if a capacitor is made with high quality materials and with the proper winding method and overall care with build quality, it will sound the same from day one and until it no longer performs as it should.

For drivers, it is a different story as there are moving parts like membranes, voice coils etc.

Like with a new car it needs to be driven for a while to get the full potential from the engine, gearbox and other main components, much the same with speaker drivers.

The mind is a very powerful thing and if you tell yourself that a capacitor will sound better or different after i.e. 100 hours of play, then I am sure that it will sound different.

I think listening to speakers is like smelling perfumes in a perfume store or going to a wine tasting.

At some point, you will need to clean your pallet, because you will have sensory overload and everything will taste, smell or sound the same or you will have convinced yourself that things are different, because your senses are too saturated to give you an honest answer.

I think that if you buy some nice and expensive capacitors, you should give them a listen.

Then go do something else for a good long time and clear your senses, then go listen again with a fresh mind.  

There are a lot of clams, superstition and “magic” in the audio industry and we would like to think that we have a pragmatic “Scandinavian” approach to making audio related products.

We want our products to have a purpose and to be of high quality.

Yes, we do want our customers to have many choices and to offer new and exciting products, but we never launch a product until we are sure that it serves a technical purpose and that it has the quality and sound that is fitting for a Jantzen Audio product.

If someone can show me proof that a human ear can detect any difference for one of our Superior Z-Caps @ 1 hour of play and @ 100 hours of play, I will gladly change our view on the subject.

At Jantzen Audio we only care about what makes music sound better/different to the human ear.

We do not waste our time with things that are only improvements or changes on a theoretical level.

It would be like saying that we had created a dish using a very exotic spice at 5000$ per ounce, but no human can taste the difference if we add to in the dish or not.

Would you a restaurant the extra 5000$ for such a dish? J

I hope you can use my thoughts on the subject.

I wish you a nice day and a merry Christmas.

Michael

I bought a complete crossover upgrade kit for the Yamaha model NS1000 from Michael. Of course, all of the parts were new and Jantzen made. There was a mix of large iron core inductors to their very fine Superior Z caps and copper foil coils. Below is a picture of one of the completed crossovers. 

Below is a quote from an email from the customer for whom I did the Yamaha job for. He sent this a month or so after install of the new xo's.

" "Hiya Carl, I hope you're feeling better. I wanted to let you know that the changes you made for me on my Yamahas have bloomed in a huge way. I mean, they sounded so much better from the beginning that it was tough to imagine that it could continue to compound but boy have they ever. I've been listening to them slowly smooth over the past month but it sounds like a big jump was taken somehow and they're just mind blowing now...just the most beautiful sound I can imagine. 
Thank you again so much for helping me with them. 
I hope you all have a wonderful Thanksgiving"!

It seems this chap heard a difference over time. What caused it? Burn it? or just his brain becoming more accustomed to the sound of the upgraded speakers. Don't know, but wanted to share this experience.

BTW, Michael is a real gentlemen. Very helpful. Personally, I believe the Superior Z caps are very good.

one down.jpg

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I suppose it does no harm to believe that there is a 'burn-in' period.

Yes, Michael Jantzen is a true gentleman. I've had several email exchanges with him.

I'd love to try the Superior Z-cap but they are huge and costly. Perhaps if I ever get a pair of AR9s I will use those on the tweet and UMR series caps.

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52 minutes ago, DavidR said:

I suppose it does no harm to believe that there is a 'burn-in' period.

Yes, Michael Jantzen is a true gentleman. I've had several email exchanges with him.

I'd love to try the Superior Z-cap but they are huge and costly. Perhaps if I ever get a pair of AR9s I will use those on the tweet and UMR series caps.

On the Jantzen website, they state that the Superior Z-caps have "a somewhat bright top end," and "highly recommended as a high-end tweeter capacitor."   So they might be a bit too aggressive for the AR9/90 UMR.   It would be a costly experiment especially since one would have to parallel caps to get close to the right ratings on some of the units.

Hey, I'm going to go out on limb here and blame all of my attenuation switch gymnastics on my fickle ears!   But I still suspect that cold speaker drivers and mechanical drives, sitting dormant for several days at 50 to 55 deg F, sound/operate better when they've had a chance to warm up a bit.

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13 minutes ago, AR surround said:

On the Jantzen website, they state that the Superior Z-caps have "a somewhat bright top end," and "highly recommended as a high-end tweeter capacitor."   So they might be a bit too aggressive for the AR9/90 UMR.   It would be a costly experiment especially since one would have to parallel caps to get close to the right ratings on some of the units.

Hey, I'm going to go out on limb here and blame all of my attenuation switch gymnastics on my fickle ears!   But I still suspect that cold speaker drivers and mechanical drives, sitting dormant for several days at 50 to 55 deg F, sound/operate better when they've had a chance to warm up a bit.

A more economical choice for the UMR series cap I'd suggest is the Jantzen CrossCap MPP with two paralleled caps to make up the 24 uF followed by a 0.2 mH copper foil coil. I suspect the CrossCap is wound to the same high standards as the Superior Z caps. It's just a lower voltage version (i.e. smaller) with a bit wider tolerance that allows for lower mfg. cost.

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Jantzen, Clarity Cap, Audyn, and Mundorf seem to use similar winding techniques when manufacturing their capacitors (from what I've read).  Plus, all 4 stress these techniques as being critical to the sound quality of their various lines of capacitors.  So, I'd be open to trying any of these brands.  All have somewhat affordable entry level lines of caps.  Then maybe one of their better caps as a bypass.  Should be something worth trying.

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10 minutes ago, Stimpy said:

Jantzen, Clarity Cap, Audyn, and Mundorf seem to use similar winding techniques when manufacturing their capacitors (from what I've read).  Plus, all 4 stress these techniques as being critical to the sound quality of their various lines of capacitors.

I do not buy this. Capacitors have no 'sound' of their own no matter how well they are constructed. What they have is electrical properties. If another 'widget' was used which replicated perfectly the electrical measurements across the frequency range in which it operated exactly matching the electrical measurements of the 'super capacitor', then I believe we could interchange the widget for the super capacitor with no alteration to the resulting sound when that widget or super capacitor is used in a crossover.  Is there anyone who believes otherwise?

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12 minutes ago, Jeff_C said:

I do not buy this. Capacitors have no 'sound' of their own no matter how well they are constructed. What they have is electrical properties. If another 'widget' was used which replicated perfectly the electrical measurements across the frequency range in which it operated exactly matching the electrical measurements of the 'super capacitor', then I believe we could interchange the widget for the super capacitor with no alteration to the resulting sound when that widget or super capacitor is used in a crossover.  Is there anyone who believes otherwise?

Me, I believe every component contributes to the overall sound of a piece of gear, and as a system, as a whole.  Every wire, resistor, capacitor, inductor, and transistor.  Different circuit topographies sound different too.  I've spent too many years doing audio mastering, not to notice differences.  Are all differences obvious; no.  Some are very subtle, and can only be heard during careful, controlled auditioning.  Can everyone hear the differences; again no.  But, some do, and those are the listeners where these discussions matter.  Scientific proof is nice and welcome, though for me, not 100% necessary.  Life's too short to not trust what I hear and enjoy.  Your mileage may vary!   :D

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27 minutes ago, Jeff_C said:

I do not buy this. Capacitors have no 'sound' of their own no matter how well they are constructed. What they have is electrical properties. If another 'widget' was used which replicated perfectly the electrical measurements across the frequency range in which it operated exactly matching the electrical measurements of the 'super capacitor', then I believe we could interchange the widget for the super capacitor with no alteration to the resulting sound when that widget or super capacitor is used in a crossover.  Is there anyone who believes otherwise?

Clarity Cap in the UK did a comprehensive study of mechanical resonances in audio Capacitors 7 years ago (link to study summary below) which led to the development of their MR series. The solution was improved winding technology which the Germans have also adopted. Only they haven't made a marketing campaign out of it..

http://www.partsconnexion.com/t/claritycap/Reseach_Summary.pdf

I fiddled with some caps years ago and found some of them emitted a sound when connected in series with an 8 ohm dummy load and driven by a function generator tied to an amplifier. It didn't take too many volts of input to get some caps to literally 'sing'. 

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Well I don't know if various brands of polypropylene caps sound perceptably different, but the polyprops that I installed certainly yield much more definition than what was in that original AR design.   But the trade off seems to be that the polyprops are much more unforgiving.    I've read in one of these threads that the Solen caps sound brighter to some people.    I used a 24uF Solen in the UMR crossover.   I'm wondering if that cap is responsible for the brightness.

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18 minutes ago, AR surround said:

Well I don't know if various brands of polypropylene caps sound perceptably different, but the polyprops that I installed certainly yield much more definition than what was in that original AR design.   But the trade off seems to be that the polyprops are much more unforgiving.    I've read in one of these threads that the Solen caps sound brighter to some people.    I used a 24uF Solen in the UMR crossover.   I'm wondering if that cap is responsible for the brightness.

Probably if it replaced an electrolytic. 

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Regarding Carl's response to my thoughts that the 24uF Solen might be responsible for the brightness in the UMR:  Carl, do you have any suggestions as to how I might tone it down a bit?  Add a resistor?  Bypass cap?  Rip it out and replace with electrolytic, or another brand of polyprop?   Thanks.

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I believe it was Roy who told me the Solens being 'labelled' as bright/harsh was because they were easy to get and a popular choice when people first began recapping with film caps. They got that label early and it spread.They probably aren't anymore 'bright/harsh' as any other cap in its class/price range. You might give it some time and play pink noise thru it. Carl suggested that to me a while ago. You could also add a resistor and see how it sounds.

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1 hour ago, AR surround said:

Regarding Carl's response to my thoughts that the 24uF Solen might be responsible for the brightness in the UMR:  Carl, do you have any suggestions as to how I might tone it down a bit?  Add a resistor?  Bypass cap?  Rip it out and replace with electrolytic, or another brand of polyprop?   Thanks.

I've no direct experience with Solen caps (yet), so take my comments as such; I only know from what I've read in forums and in reviews.  As such, Solens are reported as being bright, and better suited as being used in electronics, and not for speaker crossovers.  However, it's also said that Solen caps can be improved in sound quality by adding a bypass cap.  I've used bypass caps, and never heard any issues with using them.  The Vishay capacitor is said to work very well for this.

Vishay

Parts Express also has a line of Film & Foil bypass capacitors, which I've used and liked.

Dayton F&F

Both brands are cheap enough that you could buy a few of each and compare...!   B)

Good luck, and let us know how they work out, if you try the bypass caps.

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