Tweeter ar 3a improved

[je.osterberg]

Hi!

I am new to this forum and those great loudspeakers from AR.

I have a pair of ar3a improved with one bad tweeter. I would like to replace the AR tweeters with new ones. The most common recommendation at this forum is the HIVI tweeter. Maybe I would like something more refined. I saw one thread where one member had used the SEAS Excel T25CF-001.

Have somebody else used this tweeter? Is this a good choice? Does it need modifications?

Thanks for answers!

Jesper

[rjr513]

Hi Jesper, Welcome to CSP take look at this link http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?showtopic=7684&hl=%2Bar3a+%2Bimproved#entry96170 several post concerning tweeter for the AR3a Improved, hope this helps

[fred]

Do you have AR3a improveds with the hard dome, or the soft dome /fluidcooled tweeters?

I own 2 never used soft dome tweeters (black) which i don"t use at the moment....

[je.osterberg]

Thanks for the response!

I post a picture. I think it is the hard dome.

Will the soft dome work?

I suppose it's hard to beat the real stuff

[fred]

This a hard dome tweeter; i think later soft dome tweeters have better efficiency.

[je.osterberg]

It´s a bit complicated with the improved speakers.

Some of the models, maybe the later have higher efficiency tweeter.

I will consider that the crossover in my improved are the same as AR3a.

If I use the soft dome I have to modify the crossover?

[RoyC]

It´s a bit complicated with the improved speakers.

Some of the models, maybe the later have higher efficiency tweeter.

I will consider that the crossover in my improved are the same as AR3a.

If I use the soft dome I have to modify the crossover?

The AR-3a Improved has a different crossover than the 3a, and there is little evidence to support the notion that the Improved was ever equipped with anything but the original AR-3a 3/4" hard dome tweeter.

When AR sold the AR-11/10pi type soft dome as a replacement for the AR-3a tweeter, it had a 3.3uf series capacitor attached to it, so it is unlikely the soft dome is a drop-in replacement. I recommend considering the use of any AR-9 series (9/91/92) dome tweeter if the AR-11 tweeter cannot be found. In any case the addition of the 3.3 capacitor may be helpful.

Roy

[je.osterberg]

Thank you Roy for that clarifying comment!

It's hard to get detailed info about the improved speakers.

Just one more question. If I decide to go with the Hivi q1r that you recommends,

How shall I do?

Is it the same recommendation as with ar3a with one 0.15 mH parallel inductor?

I have read many different opinions and starting to get confused.

Jesper

[RoyC]

Thank you Roy for that clarifying comment!

It's hard to get detailed info about the improved speakers.

Just one more question. If I decide to go with the Hivi q1r that you recommends,

How shall I do?

Is it the same recommendation as with ar3a with one 0.15 mH parallel inductor?

I have read many different opinions and starting to get confused.

Jesper

Hi Jesper,

Replacing the AR-3a Improved tweeter is difficult primarily because the switch arrangement does not provide enough settings to adjust the response of the new tweeter. This will be a problem with any modern tweeter used in the Improved. There is also a small parallel inductor already in the Improved's tweeter crossover circuit (unlike the AR-3a), which must be taken into consideration. (By the way, the small inductor most often used with the HiVi Q1R in the 3a is .05mh, not .15mh.)

Not long ago I communciated at length with a forum member who was experimenting with a number of tweeters in his pair of Improveds. He decided the best replacement tweeters were the AR-11 tweeter and its close cousin used in the AR-9 series. His second choice was the AB Tech 3/4" replacement tweeter. The one he liked the least was the HiVi Q1R. For this reason I'm hesitant to recommend the Q1R for use in the 3a Improved. I have no personal experience with which to compare his findings, but I have much respect for his opinion.

Roy

[KlausDK]

The AR-3a Improved has a different crossover than the 3a, and there is little evidence to support the notion that the Improved was ever equipped with anything but the original AR-3a 3/4" hard dome tweeter.

I completely agree with Roy, and here is a link to the AR-3a Improved crossover (curtesy oh M Luong and John O'Hanlon):

http://www.classicsp...-1204644282.jpg

Being in Schweden, you are welcome to call me for a discussion on the AR-3a Improved, send me a PM for telephone number.

BRgds Klaus

[je.osterberg]

Finally! After taking part the wisdom from you who replied, i managed to make the right decision.

I got two AR-11 tweeters from USA (where else?). It took a year to find a good price (100 Dollar) after I lost one auktion.

They are coverd with ugly ragged foam, but they sound terrific.

In fact the whole speakers sounds much better. This is why HIFI is so interesting. I am always suprised how the sound changes, hopefully for the better.

If some of you hesitate to change to a modern tweeter, it will never sound as good as the original. Maybe if you really know what you are doing and change the crossover. Its sad because what are we going to do when the old tweeters are gone/out of circulation?

I am very happy with my completed, fully functioning AR3a Improved.

The only thing thats left is the finish. I am thinking of sanding the wood and then maybe Danish oil?

Best regards, Jesper

[stan461]

If some of you hesitate to change to a modern tweeter, it will never sound as good as the original. Maybe if you really know what you are doing and change the crossover. Its sad because what are we going to do when the old tweeters are gone/out of circulation?

After extensive listening to my AR3a's with the factory tweeter, I switched to my AR3a pair thAT HAVE the HiVi Q1R tweeters installed.

I purchased these from RoyC with the inductor already attached.

I realize that this thread is talking about the "Ar3a improved".

However, I wanted to point out that my AR3a's with the HiVi tweeters sound wonderful and they easily outperform my stock Ar3a's.

The most glaring thing is that the stock Ar3a's can't be pushed too hard or they get shrill.

Both pairs of AR3a's have fresh (and similar) crossover caps and new pots.

The stock tweeters are almost 40 years old and have had to suffer degradation.

The point here is that I feel the HiVi Q1R is an extremely capable and cost effective replacement for the AR3a stock tweeter.

I must now consider either selling them or having the stock Ar3a tweeters rebuilt.

[je.osterberg]

Interresting comment Stan461. Actually i recently had to change to a simplier amp fom my AR3a and it sounded a bit harsh. The evaluation of the sound depands on the setup, With my best amp it sound wonderful. Maybe in some combination the HIVI sound better?

Some day we will run out of old tweeters and we have to find new solutions.

I don´t know but i suspect that the Ar 11 tweeters are better than the old AR3a tweeters. They have great detailed high frequency. I also have one pair ar2ax with original tweeters and the high frequency are more dull.

Maybe AR11 tweeters are a good match even for the AR3a (not improved)?

For you who live in the states the AR11speekers are a very good deal by the way. For me living in Sweden they are almost impossible to get.

Jesper

[stan461]

Interresting comment Stan461. Actually i recently had to change to a simplier amp fom my AR3a and it sounded a bit harsh. The evaluation of the sound depands on the setup, With my best amp it sound wonderful. Maybe in some combination the HIVI sound better?

Some day we will run out of old tweeters and we have to find new solutions.

I don´t know but i suspect that the Ar 11 tweeters are better than the old AR3a tweeters. They have great detailed high frequency. I also have one pair ar2ax with original tweeters and the high frequency are more dull.

Maybe AR11 tweeters are a good match even for the AR3a (not improved)?

For you who live in the states the AR11speekers are a very good deal by the way. For me living in Sweden they are almost impossible to get.

Jesper

You are right of course.

In the world of audio, every component counts, including the room.

In my particular case, the HIVI tweeters outperformed the 40 year old stock tweeters.

And in my situation, the tweeters were all that was changed.

I don't know what a new stock pair of AR3a's would sound like.

They simply don't exist.

As far as AR11's are concerned, I see very few pairs on sale here in the USA and those that are offered have gone up significantly in price.

There's a pair offered BIN right now (1/12/14) on Ebay for $650.

When I bought my AR speakers, they were reasonably priced.

$100 to $200 per pair.

Also, at that time, large horn speakers with flea powered tube amps were all the rage.

[je.osterberg]

Everyone who got one or more pair of AR-speakers should be very lucky.

Jesper

[fred]

Perhaps i can help, and sell you my spare Improved tweeter.(soft dome with ferrofluid cooling).

One problem...i live in The Netherlands!!

Fred.

[Carlspeak]

Vintage AR is now offering modded AB Tech FF cooled tweeters I've tested and found they are very bit a good as originals - only better! They aren't cheap, but are great drop ins (same flange OD) and worth it for the long haul...

[Rwhitebbq]

Better/ more suitable than Hivi with crossover mod? I realize the price difference is a personal evaluation.

[Carlspeak]

Yes, the vintage-AR tweeter is very much like the original 3/4 inch dome tweeter, only better.

[bjmsam]

I own a pair of AR-3a-Improved speakers with Peerless dome tweeters (purchased from Madisound twenty-five years ago) that sound too bright (compared to my AR-9, AR-90, AR-94, AR-3a).  Is it feasible to address that imbalance via circuitry or would it be best to replace them with new Hi-Vi tweeters from Vintage AR?

Peerless 1544:
100DT 26/60 SF (LR10)
Imp: 8 ohms
Fs Hz: 1100
power: 100 watts
efficiency: 90 dB

[onplane]

On 10/9/2016 at 10:54 AM, bjmsam said:

I own a pair of AR-3a-Improved speakers with Peerless dome tweeters (purchased from Madisound twentcontrolsears ago) that sound too bright (compared to my AR-9,  AR-90, AR-94, AR-3a).  Is it feasible to address that imbalance via circuitry or would it be best to replace them with new Hi-Vi tweeters from Vintage AR?

Peerless 1544:
100DT 26/60 SF (LR10)
Imp: 8 ohms
Fs Hz: 1100
power: 100 watts
efficiency: 90 dB

 

Are you certain that the "brightness" you hear is due to your 8 ohm tweeters?  Given that all of the other components are 4 ohm, your tweeters should be behind rather that "in front".

Now, there is a lot more sound coming from the mid range. Any chance that is where your problem really is?

I've been an advocate for many years of bi-amping AR3a's as a way to solve the "voice" issue. That is you control voice NOT with pots, but volume controls. In other words, when playing vinyl you'd cut back on the volume sent to the mids/tweeters.  You'd naturally return that volume when playing back modern digital recordings.

Regards,

Jerry

 

[owlsplace]

Check and see if a coil was added parallel to the tweeter -- if not you can can experiment by adding one in the 0.1mh range plus or minus about 50% judging by previous posts in the archive ... oops, that would be for the 3a crossover.

Need to find the 3a Improved schematic somewhere in the archive and compare the differences or perhaps RoyC will chime in.

Roger

 

[RoyC]

I'm not sure I can add anything to the comments I made earlier in this thread. In my posts above I commented on the HiVi tweeter in relation to the 3a Improved, and made some suggestions. As noted, the 3a Improved already has a .1mh coil across the tweeter.

The problem with any modern tweeter compared to the original AR 3/4" dome tweeter used in AR models until the AR-11 has little to do with impedance. It has much more to do with the very unique construction and mechanical properties of the old tweeter. The reason modern tweeters sound too bright or harsh without crossover changes is that they all reach much further into the upper midrange than the original tweeters regardless of impedance. The crossover must be addressed.

As Roger suggested, adding another .1mh coil across the Peerless tweeter above may be of some help. The response is not likely to be the same as it was originally, but it will tame the tweeter a bit. You could also experiment with other coil values, but it will be hit or miss. The HiVi tweeter arrangement used for the 3a is not likely to be an "improvement" in this case.

Roy

[bjmsam]

21 hours ago, RoyC said:

The problem with any modern tweeter compared to the original AR 3/4" dome tweeter used in AR models until the AR-11 has little to do with impedance. It has much more to do with the very unique construction and mechanical properties of the old tweeter. The reason modern tweeters sound too bright or harsh without crossover changes is that they all reach much further into the upper midrange than the original tweeters regardless of impedance. The crossover must be addressed.

As Roger suggested, adding another .1mh coil across the Peerless tweeter above may be of some help. The response is not likely to be the same as it was originally, but it will tame the tweeter a bit. You could also experiment with other coil values, but it will be hit or miss.

Upper midrange emphasis is precisely what I'm hearing.  I'll try experimenting with coils.  Thank you!