AR-3a: 15th row in a concert hall?

[davidro]

G'day all

I'm immensely enjoying my AR-3a. I've read some opinions on these speakers to see if my impression of these speakers more or less relate to other's experiences. One thing that keeps emerging in people's discussion appears to be:

1. The treble is rolled off to 'mimic' the sound you'd hear in a concert hall.
   
2. The intended sound is one that you'd hear from the 15th row from the stage in a concert halll.
   
3. This means these speakers are intended for acoustic music in a concert hall.
   

I got no issues with these ideas as my staple music is orchestral music (i.e. it doesn't hurt me to think oh my speakers aren't good for rock music) and I go to live concerts often. In fact I'm attending a Wien Philharmonic concert tonight at the Sydney Opera House. My impression is these claims are fair enough. But are these claims based on some literature or promotional material of AR in the old days? I mean 'precisely 15th row' seems damn specific. It'd be interesting to know exactly which concert hall is referred to! Considering the word 'uncoloured' was promoted when AR sold these speakers it's sort of interesting they deliberately made the high roll-off. I have looked at the library section of this website to no avail.

[dynaco_dan]

G'day all

I'm immensely enjoying my AR-3a. I've read some opinions on these speakers to see if my impression of these speakers more or less relate to other's experiences. One thing that keeps emerging in people's discussion appears to be:

1. The treble is rolled off to 'mimic' the sound you'd hear in a concert hall.
   
2. The intended sound is one that you'd hear from the 15th row from the stage in a concert halll.
   
3. This means these speakers are intended for acoustic music in a concert hall.
   

I got no issues with these ideas as my staple music is orchestral music (i.e. it doesn't hurt me to think oh my speakers aren't good for rock music) and I go to live concerts often. In fact I'm attending a Wien Philharmonic concert tonight at the Sydney Opera House. My impression is these claims are fair enough. But are these claims based on some literature or promotional material of AR in the old days? I mean 'precisely 15th row' seems damn specific. It'd be interesting to know exactly which concert hall is referred to! Considering the word 'uncoloured' was promoted when AR sold these speakers it's sort of interesting they deliberately made the high roll-off. I have looked at the library section of this website to no avail.

Hi there

In some reviews there will be a reference to, perhaps, row M, instead of a row number.

J. Gordon Holt, of Stereophile Magazine fame, did that for one.

The reference is to show a rough seating position from the stage area to the listener.

It is not an exact science, just a comment.

The Advent speaker may have been referenced at row H and the AR-3A at row M and KLH Nine at row R.

JBL and the like would very likely be row A.

Noting that old recording studios used different amps, pre-amps, turntables, equalizers, headphones, monitor speakers, etc.

The AR-LST was created to be used as a reference speaker with it's flat output.

Some, just to pick one item, cartridges, had peaks and dips which was compensated by the technician so that it sounded good to him or her.

We judged, when the honest opportunity was given to us, to buy the speakers that we enjoy now.

There is likely not one member here that does not own more than one pair of speakers and of different brands.

Not one brand of resistors, capacitors, drivers or speaker wire has been chosen by all of the speaker manufacturers for their crossovers.

Sit back and enjoy your concert you are going to.

[soundminded]

G'day all

I'm immensely enjoying my AR-3a. I've read some opinions on these speakers to see if my impression of these speakers more or less relate to other's experiences. One thing that keeps emerging in people's discussion appears to be:

1. The treble is rolled off to 'mimic' the sound you'd hear in a concert hall.
   
2. The intended sound is one that you'd hear from the 15th row from the stage in a concert halll.
   
3. This means these speakers are intended for acoustic music in a concert hall.
   

I got no issues with these ideas as my staple music is orchestral music (i.e. it doesn't hurt me to think oh my speakers aren't good for rock music) and I go to live concerts often. In fact I'm attending a Wien Philharmonic concert tonight at the Sydney Opera House. My impression is these claims are fair enough. But are these claims based on some literature or promotional material of AR in the old days? I mean 'precisely 15th row' seems damn specific. It'd be interesting to know exactly which concert hall is referred to! Considering the word 'uncoloured' was promoted when AR sold these speakers it's sort of interesting they deliberately made the high roll-off. I have looked at the library section of this website to no avail.

Whether it was used to rationalize the characteristic rolloff of the tweeter or Villchur actually believed that concert halls sound that way the analogy is incorrect. There is no speaker that can reproduce the tonality of musical instruments as they are heard in a concert hall. This is because that sound is not on the recording. As the echoes die out over a period of a second or two or more in a live concert hall, the highest frequencies die out more quickly, typically twice as quickly at 8 khz as at 1 khz. The steady state transfer function between the musician on the stage and the listener in the audience can be measured using what's called an ILG fan which has known spectral characteristics. The difference between that spectrum and what is measured at a spot in the audience is the time averaged steady state frequency transfer function, analogous to the frequency response of the hall. But the sound is a dynamic event you can't emulate using a steady state filter. The initial sound reaching your ears is rich in high harmonics giving sound definition, distinguishing one musical instrument from another. As the sound fades it become increasingly mellow, the lower harmonics and fundimentals predominate. This is only one aspect of the difference between recorded sound and live sound heard at a large venue. The ability to reproduce that sound is beyond the current state of the art even today.

[JKent]

Hey David

Glad you're enjoying them and although most would agree with the characteristics you describe (it was also known as the "east coast" i.e. New England sound as opposed to the "west coast" California sound epitomized by JBL) I just want to say that I (and others) enjoy a wide range of music including orchestral, chamber, jazz, rock etc.

I love my 3a's, and while they excel with "classical" pieces and acoustic jazz, they also ROCK.

As an aging baby boomer, I love to blast the Rolling Stones, Derek & the Dominoes, Beatles, etc.

Janice Joplin with Big Brother & the Holding Company doing "Piece o' My Heart" just BEGS to be cranked up, and the 3a's are equal to the task!

Rock on!

Kent

[genek]

But are these claims based on some literature or promotional material of AR in the old days?

These were all subjective impressions of the "AR sound" from various magazine reviewers of the period. You won't find them in any AR literature, except possibly in quotes from reviews.

[davidro]

Hi there

In some reviews there will be a reference to, perhaps, row M, instead of a row number.

J. Gordon Holt, of Stereophile Magazine fame, did that for one.

The reference is to show a rough seating position from the stage area to the listener.

It is not an exact science, just a comment.

The Advent speaker may have been referenced at row H and the AR-3A at row M and KLH Nine at row R.

JBL and the like would very likely be row A.

Noting that old recording studios used different amps, pre-amps, turntables, equalizers, headphones, monitor speakers, etc.

The AR-LST was created to be used as a reference speaker with it's flat output.

Some, just to pick one item, cartridges, had peaks and dips which was compensated by the technician so that it sounded good to him or her.

We judged, when the honest opportunity was given to us, to buy the speakers that we enjoy now.

There is likely not one member here that does not own more than one pair of speakers and of different brands.

Not one brand of resistors, capacitors, drivers or speaker wire has been chosen by all of the speaker manufacturers for their crossovers.

Sit back and enjoy your concert you are going to.

Thanks mate that's very interesting. Wish I could see the actual review! I've thoroughly enjoyed the concert thank you.

Whether it was used to rationalize the characteristic rolloff of the tweeter or Villchur actually believed that concert halls sound that way the analogy is incorrect. There is no speaker that can reproduce the tonality of musical instruments as they are heard in a concert hall. This is because that sound is not on the recording. As the echoes die out over a period of a second or two or more in a live concert hall, the highest frequencies die out more quickly, typically twice as quickly at 8 khz as at 1 khz. The steady state transfer function between the musician on the stage and the listener in the audience can be measured using what's called an ILG fan which has known spectral characteristics. The difference between that spectrum and what is measured at a spot in the audience is the time averaged steady state frequency transfer function, analogous to the frequency response of the hall. But the sound is a dynamic event you can't emulate using a steady state filter. The initial sound reaching your ears is rich in high harmonics giving sound definition, distinguishing one musical instrument from another. As the sound fades it become increasingly mellow, the lower harmonics and fundimentals predominate. This is only one aspect of the difference between recorded sound and live sound heard at a large venue. The ability to reproduce that sound is beyond the current state of the art even today.

I agree reproduction of concert hall sound is impossible. Even if we have some 'perfect' speakers then our living rooms aren't a concert hall.

But interestingly what you describe to me sounds like what AR-3a does (or tries to do), especially about high frequency bit.

I wouldn't be deluded to think AR-3a 'reproduces' the concert hall sound, but it may 'mimic' that sound very well. And I'm happy with the result.

Hey David

Glad you're enjoying them and although most would agree with the characteristics you describe (it was also known as the "east coast" i.e. New England sound as opposed to the "west coast" California sound epitomized by JBL) I just want to say that I (and others) enjoy a wide range of music including orchestral, chamber, jazz, rock etc.

I love my 3a's, and while they excel with "classical" pieces and acoustic jazz, they also ROCK.

As an aging baby boomer, I love to blast the Rolling Stones, Derek & the Dominoes, Beatles, etc.

Janice Joplin with Big Brother & the Holding Company doing "Piece o' My Heart" just BEGS to be cranked up, and the 3a's are equal to the task!

Rock on!

Kent

I agree. I'm listening to Beatles Songtrock record as we speak now!

These were all subjective impressions of the "AR sound" from various magazine reviewers of the period. You won't find them in any AR literature, except possibly in quotes from reviews.

It'd be great to see actual contents of those reviews. Thanks.

[genek]

It'd be great to see actual contents of those reviews. Thanks.

If you scan through the old AR brochures in the library, some of them have snippets of reviews. I don't know if any of them refer to those impressions of sound.

[Pete B]

Hey David

Glad you're enjoying them and although most would agree with the characteristics you describe (it was also known as the "east coast" i.e. New England sound as opposed to the "west coast" California sound epitomized by JBL) I just want to say that I (and others) enjoy a wide range of music including orchestral, chamber, jazz, rock etc.

I love my 3a's, and while they excel with "classical" pieces and acoustic jazz, they also ROCK.

As an aging baby boomer, I love to blast the Rolling Stones, Derek & the Dominoes, Beatles, etc.

Janice Joplin with Big Brother & the Holding Company doing "Piece o' My Heart" just BEGS to be cranked up, and the 3a's are equal to the task!

Rock on!

Kent

I would say that the 3a is not the best speaker for

"blasting" rock at all. The tweeter has a paper former

with very poor thermal capacity and solid lead in wires.

They fail fairly easily and so something with a more

rugged tweeter is better for rock. Both the EPI and the

Advent tweeter are far more robust as far as vintage

speakers go. Nice classic rock choices by the way!

[JKent]

I would say that the 3a is not the best speaker for "blasting" rock at all. The tweeter has a paper former with very poor thermal capacity and solid lead in wires.

They fail fairly easily and so something with a more rugged tweeter is better for rock. Both the EPI and the Advent tweeter are far more robust as far as vintage speakers go. Nice classic rock choices by the way!

hmm.... I was thinking more about the "sound" but those are good points regarding the fragility of the tweeters! Unfortunately, the old AR tweeters are nearing the end of their lifespans (maybe hurried along the way by "blasting" rock). I probably should have mentioned my 3a's came with one dead tweeter, so they now have brand new Hi-Vi tweeters, so there's little risk of frying them.

Kent

[Pete B]

hmm.... I was thinking more about the "sound" but those are good points regarding the fragility of the tweeters! Unfortunately, the old AR tweeters are nearing the end of their lifespans (maybe hurried along the way by "blasting" rock). I probably should have mentioned my 3a's came with one dead tweeter, so they now have brand new Hi-Vi tweeters, so there's little risk of frying them.

Kent

This makes sense ...

Also people should make sure your midrange caps are

good in order to avoid midrange burnout.

[genek]

This makes sense ...

Also people should make sure your midrange caps are

good in order to avoid midrange burnout.

Classic era ARs were mostly designed around the raw responses of the drivers, which is why superimposing the individual driver curves that AR published over each other tend to be so close to the measured response of a full system. The crossovers were mostly there for curve shaping. Do they really provide all that much (or any) real driver protection if someone decides to "blast" sound through them?

[gary_wong5]

hmm.... I was thinking more about the "sound" but those are good points regarding the fragility of the tweeters! Unfortunately, the old AR tweeters are nearing the end of their lifespans (maybe hurried along the way by "blasting" rock). I probably should have mentioned my 3a's came with one dead tweeter, so they now have brand new Hi-Vi tweeters, so there's little risk of frying them.

Kent

There is an expert in Taiwan whose can repair AR3's tweeter and midrange with excellent result. You can get more information from this blog:

http://tw.myblog.yahoo.com/mr_kai94/article?mid=35&prev=50&next=34&page=1&sc=1#yartcmt

I found it troublesome to send to Taiwan, so I just bought a pair of AR3 tweeters from eBay.

Best wishes.

[Pete B]

Classic era ARs were mostly designed around the raw responses of the drivers, which is why superimposing the individual driver curves that AR published over each other tend to be so close to the measured response of a full system. The crossovers were mostly there for curve shaping. Do they really provide all that much (or any) real driver protection if someone decides to "blast" sound through them?

Yes they do, the midrange has a second order high pass filter and would not last at all without it.

[dynaco_dan]

There is an expert in Taiwan whose can repair AR3's tweeter and midrange with excellent result. You can get more information from this blog:

http://tw.myblog.yahoo.com/mr_kai94/article?mid=35&prev=50&next=34&page=1&sc=1#yartcmt

I found it troublesome to send to Taiwan, so I just bought a pair of AR3 tweeters from eBay.

Best wishes.

Hi Gary

With Roy Allison's recollection that the 1 3/8 inch AR-2A tweeter is the same identical unit as used in the AR-3.

It is of lesser value now and certainly not worth attempting a repair.

The increased availability of tweeters with that information and the lack of scarcity of that tweeter is less and the price should also be much less.

I do believe that sellers were asking a premium price believing that the tweeter was specificly for the rarer AR-3 before this revelation.

We owners of AR-3's benefit by Roy's forthcoming announcement, thank you, Roy.

[Sonnar]

This article, published in november 1971 in Stereo Review, will help to explain the reasons of the gentle roll-off in the high frequency typical in AR 3a's response. Very often I listen classical and baroque music at Rome Auditorium, an excellent modern theater designed by Renzo Piano: two years ago I went to listen Haendel, Concerti Grossi, directed by Cristopher Hogwood, then, back at home, I listen the same ( Concerti Grossi Op.6 , Christopher Hogwood, Decca Oiseau Lyre ) with my AR 3a, and I was very impressed by the accuracy of the reproduction. Best wishes to You all, Adriano Galvani, Rome, Italy

SR1.pdf

SR2.pdf

SR3.pdf

SR4.pdf

SR5.pdf

SR6.pdf

[Carlspeak]

Grazie Adriano!

Here's a response test of a speaker with a similar type of roll off at the high end. The red line is the on-axis measurement. Perhaps it will wet your appetite!