X-over Break In Period

[ADVENTAGIOUS]

Just finished the restoration wiring in my AR3a's and wanted to have a listen to the mids and tweets before closing them up. I double checked all the wiring to make sure I got everything right. The woofer is sitting vertically on top of a milk crate just below the box (wired up). I am running an Adcom GFA 5400 (125WPC) with the preamp in mono mode. One speaker is an AR3a and the other is a Large Advent. I realize that the AR is 4 ohms and the LA is 8 ohms. I know some will say this may not be a good comparison but the LA sounds much better at this point (mids and highs). I was thinking and hoping that there is a break-in period for these new crossovers. I know that my Advents seem to improve over time after re-capping the x-overs. I also swapped AR3a's to see if one was better...............nope.........both the same.....the tweeters sound very subdued. The mid ranges have lots of volume. Any comments are appreciated.

[JKent]

um... Let me understand this. You don't like the sound of the AR3a with the woofer pulled out, sitting on a milk crate, and you want comments?

I don't want to be rude but..... REALLY?

Put 'em together with the proper acoustic suspension seal and I'm confident the 3a's will sound better than the OLAs.

Kent

PS: The tweeters are supposed to sound subdued. They are really "supertweeters" and there's not that much sound above the xo point (unlike the 2-way Advents).

[genek]

A longstanding discussion. Most of the speaker professionals who post here will tell you that crossover break-in is either a crock, or that any real changes that might occur happen within a few minutes of use. Doesn't persuade those who are convinced they hear something one little bit.

[RoyC]

I agree with Gene...Crossover "break-in" is a non-issue.

Advents are more forward sounding, and as such, will usually fare better in the type of comparison you are conducting. A better way to compare is to listen to each speaker system separately, in pairs, over a period of time. You may still prefer the Advent in the end, but the results can sometimes be surprising in contrast to your initial impressions.

With that said, there is absolutely NO way you can properly evaluate a speaker system which is not fully assembled!

Roy

[dynaco_dan]

I agree with Gene...Crossover "break-in" is a non-issue.

Advents are more forward sounding, and as such, will usually fare better in the type of comparison you are conducting. A better way to compare is to listen to each speaker system separately, in pairs, over a period of time. You may still prefer the Advent in the end, but the results can sometimes be surprising in contrast to your initial impressions.

With that said, there is absolutely NO way you can properly evaluate a speaker system which is not fully assembled!

Roy

Hi there

I have read a lot of stories over the years of a speaker, "break in period".

Usually a reviewer will reverse the phase of their speakers and face them so that they are almost touching.

They would then drive a repetitive sound test tone for a few days or so.

This was to break them in and then they would re-wire them back in phase and listen and report an audible improvement or at least a change in sound quality.

This is from, "the golden eared reviewers", mostly at, Stereophile Magazine, over the decades that I read it.

This may in fact been a break in period for the speaker cable, drivers and crossover components.

Certainly would allow a loosening up of the driver suspensions at least.

I am not smart enough to know if the capacitors need a polarizing of their molecules affect after they are manufactured.

Considering the hifi signals are AC, the wires at least should be of equal gauge and minimum length.

I laughed at the milk crate comment, that is something I would do, at least he had it facing up and not down or sideways.

[ADVENTAGIOUS]

I knew I might draw some fire on this but I wanted to know how you guys felt. My primary reason for leaving the woofers (not installed and sealed) out was to make sure that everything worked and no screw ups in the wiring. The subdued tweeter comment was my first impression and I actually did check the wiring again to make sure that it was ok. After changing some playing material and running the one box for about 6 hours, I noticed that the tweeter sounded better (maybe it was just the material). The 3a did seem to sound more smoother on the mids than the LA. Today, I wll change my amp and connect both speakers and run them for the day (unassembled) just to make sure that everything will be ok. I must admit that my LA's did improve over time after I recapped them. I have never heard a pair of 3a's, but for years now have always wanted (lusted) a pair. I finally got them and have been (with guidance from this site) painstakingly restoring/modifying them being careful to do them "right".

http://www.classicsp...?showtopic=5980

All the reading and comments on this site about 3a's have led me to maybe acquire a wild set of expectations for these legends and my first impression without the boxes assembled/sealed is just unfair. Besides, I am 64 now and probably can't hear a lot of that high material above 10k. My wife is always telling me to turn down the treble but she has supersonic ears. I have a nice pair of Yamaha NS-1000m's that I will do an A-B with once everything is together. As always, your comments and inputs are appreciated. I am really enjoying this hobby, it really makes you think, it tests your skill, creativity and grit and then you get to enjoy your efforts.It's also great to know too that when you have an issue or a question that you can turn to the experience on this site to get your answers.

[dynaco_dan]

I knew I might draw some fire on this but I wanted to know how you guys felt. My primary reason for leaving the woofers (not installed and sealed) out was to make sure that everything worked and no screw ups in the wiring. The subdued tweeter comment was my first impression and I actually did check the wiring again to make sure that it was ok. After changing some playing material and running the one box for about 6 hours, I noticed that the tweeter sounded better (maybe it was just the material). The 3a did seem to sound more smoother on the mids than the LA. Today, I wll change my amp and connect both speakers and run them for the day (unassembled) just to make sure that everything will be ok. I must admit that my LA's did improve over time after I recapped them. I have never heard a pair of 3a's, but for years now have always wanted (lusted) a pair. I finally got them and have been (with guidance from this site) painstakingly restoring/modifying them being careful to do them "right".

http://www.classicsp...?showtopic=5980

All the reading and comments on this site about 3a's have led me to maybe acquire a wild set of expectations for these legends and my first impression without the boxes assembled/sealed is just unfair. Besides, I am 64 now and probably can't hear a lot of that high material above 10k. My wife is always telling me to turn down the treble but she has supersonic ears. I have a nice pair of Yamaha NS-1000m's that I will do an A-B with once everything is together. As always, your comments and inputs are appreciated. I am really enjoying this hobby, it really makes you think, it tests your skill, creativity and grit and then you get to enjoy your efforts.It's also great to know too that when you have an issue or a question that you can turn to the experience on this site to get your answers.

Hi there

I commented on your position of the woofer, facing upwards.

Actually I compare your testing, long term, not short term, without the very important cabinet loading.

These particular woofers are very floppy and sloppy and can overdrive without the air support needed by them.

It is an accident waiting to happen, sort of like testing, long term, the mids or tweeters without a filter capacitor.

If an upward facing woofer cannot be verified as functioning smoothly in less than a minute, then something is wrong, using an AR woofer at least.

[ADVENTAGIOUS]

Thanks for that dynaco_dan, I am running them at very low volume but to your point, they are being shut down right now and going to be assembled by the end of the day. Your guidance is much appreciated.

[soundminded]

I knew I might draw some fire on this but I wanted to know how you guys felt. My primary reason for leaving the woofers (not installed and sealed) out was to make sure that everything worked and no screw ups in the wiring. The subdued tweeter comment was my first impression and I actually did check the wiring again to make sure that it was ok. After changing some playing material and running the one box for about 6 hours, I noticed that the tweeter sounded better (maybe it was just the material). The 3a did seem to sound more smoother on the mids than the LA. Today, I wll change my amp and connect both speakers and run them for the day (unassembled) just to make sure that everything will be ok. I must admit that my LA's did improve over time after I recapped them. I have never heard a pair of 3a's, but for years now have always wanted (lusted) a pair. I finally got them and have been (with guidance from this site) painstakingly restoring/modifying them being careful to do them "right".

http://www.classicsp...?showtopic=5980

All the reading and comments on this site about 3a's have led me to maybe acquire a wild set of expectations for these legends and my first impression without the boxes assembled/sealed is just unfair. Besides, I am 64 now and probably can't hear a lot of that high material above 10k. My wife is always telling me to turn down the treble but she has supersonic ears. I have a nice pair of Yamaha NS-1000m's that I will do an A-B with once everything is together. As always, your comments and inputs are appreciated. I am really enjoying this hobby, it really makes you think, it tests your skill, creativity and grit and then you get to enjoy your efforts.It's also great to know too that when you have an issue or a question that you can turn to the experience on this site to get your answers.

"My wife is always telling me to turn down the treble but she has supersonic ears."

Actually she probably has normal hearing. Most speakers sound shrill because they deliberately beam their high frequencies over a very narrow angle. This is supposed to improve something called "imaging" if you aim them properly and sit in just the right spot. That is the current holy grail of audiophiles and those who manufacture to their tastes. AR3a by contrast does not beam high frequency sound. Except for Roy Allison's own tweeter, the AR 3/4" tweeter has the widest dispersion of any tweeter I know of. That is why it is impossible to replace, noboby manufactures a comparable product today. Is it possible your tweeters have deteriorated? That is the most common problem with them, they have foam inside which crumbles. Other material degradations over time also occurred. We speculate that nobody today actually knows what AR3a sounds like new.

Another fact of AR3a tweeters is that while their response is uniform, it is known to be rolled off. Some call this polite or subdued, I just call it muffled. Try turning up the treble or use an equalizer for more precise FR control. I did that with my pair of AR2axs that use an 8 ohm version of the same tweeter and I turned down the midrange and found to my amazement that those speakers perform very accurately, far better than I'd ever heard them before when other people owned and demonstrated them to me. I'm also surprised mine didn't deteriorate. As I learned here, that is how Roy Allison pulled off his LvR demos with AR3s so successfully, he turned up the treble on his Dynaco PAS3X preamp. It worked wonders for that speaker too.

Here is a practical suggestion. When you have the speakers fully and correctly reassembled, try using an equalizer to get the most accurate sounding response with only one speaker playing in monophonic mode. Use your wife's judgement, she seems to have more sensitive hearing than you do, most women hear high frequencies better than men. Then match the equalizer settings for the other channel to the first one and switch to stereo mode. Then make your comparison with Advent. You may have an entirely different opinion.

[genek]

As I learned here, that is how Roy Allison pulled off his LvR demos with AR3s so successfully, he turned up the treble on his Dynaco PAS3X preamp. It worked wonders for that speaker too.

FYI, the specific setting for the AR-3 LvR demo was mid and treble controls to full and preamp treble at +3dB. AR provided customers who wanted truly "flat" response with a similar recommendation for the AR-3a and AR-5 (they said "increase slightly" for treble, probably because the average customer at the time wouldn't have known how to get +3dB on an amplifier not calibrated that way).

The AR-2ax would require the mid setting to be a bit lower than the 3/3a or 5 because of the higher relative output of the cone tweeter/mid driver. I have mine set at about 45 degrees below full in a very "live" listening space.

[dynaco_dan]

Thanks for that dynaco_dan, I am running them at very low volume but to your point, they are being shut down right now and going to be assembled by the end of the day. Your guidance is much appreciated.

Hi there

I am always worried that someone will, someday, have a strong transient signal, even with the amp at low volume.

That is why I do not hesitate in recommending a 1 1/2 volt, no higher, battery test.

The 12" woofer has well over a 1" travel which can be easily exceeded with no cabinet load.

I once saw a pair of the 12" alnico woofers in AR-3A's that were both wired into an 120 volt AC electrical circuit.

The owner likely had someone wire up a soundroom but did not wire the speakers up to a non-standard electrical connector and box in the wall.

The transient sent the woofer cones forward and beyond the magnet and on their return crushed the end of the, now misaligned, voice coils.

It must have been one very loud sound, very brief, but loud, possibly well over 1,750+ watts in.

The voice coils were not even burnt and I do not have any memory of fuses even being mentioned.

I don't think that fuses for speakers was even talked about back then, it would have implied a weakness of a speaker system and diminish sales, very likely.

With a sealed cabinet load it can likely handle several hundred watts transient peaks input, though, not what it was designed for or suggested even.

I believe it was the AR-LST, with the same woofer, that was tested at over 500+ watt clean peak transients.

I am not certain if there was an AR recommended Buss Fusetron FNM-2 amp fuse in the LST's or not.

I do not think that that particular fuse would blow with such a transient signal.

I do not know if a fast blow fuse would have done it's job or not, depending on it's rating.

[ADVENTAGIOUS]

Hi there

I am not certain if there was an AR recommended Buss Fusetron FNM-2 amp fuse in the LST's or not.

I do not think that that particular fuse would blow with such a transient signal.

I do not know if a fast blow fuse would have done it's job or not, depending on it's rating.

Heathkit employed a 3AG-3A in their AS-103a's.

[ADVENTAGIOUS]

"My wife is always telling me to turn down the treble but she has supersonic ears."

Actually she probably has normal hearing. Most speakers sound shrill because they deliberately beam their high frequencies over a very narrow angle. This is supposed to improve something called "imaging" if you aim them properly and sit in just the right spot. That is the current holy grail of audiophiles and those who manufacture to their tastes. AR3a by contrast does not beam high frequency sound. Except for Roy Allison's own tweeter, the AR 3/4" tweeter has the widest dispersion of any tweeter I know of. That is why it is impossible to replace, noboby manufactures a comparable product today. Is it possible your tweeters have deteriorated? That is the most common problem with them, they have foam inside which crumbles. Other material degradations over time also occurred. We speculate that nobody today actually knows what AR3a sounds like new.

Another fact of AR3a tweeters is that while their response is uniform, it is known to be rolled off. Some call this polite or subdued, I just call it muffled. Try turning up the treble or use an equalizer for more precise FR control. I did that with my pair of AR2axs that use an 8 ohm version of the same tweeter and I turned down the midrange and found to my amazement that those speakers perform very accurately, far better than I'd ever heard them before when other people owned and demonstrated them to me. I'm also surprised mine didn't deteriorate. As I learned here, that is how Roy Allison pulled off his LvR demos with AR3s so successfully, he turned up the treble on his Dynaco PAS3X preamp. It worked wonders for that speaker too.

Here is a practical suggestion. When you have the speakers fully and correctly reassembled, try using an equalizer to get the most accurate sounding response with only one speaker playing in monophonic mode. Use your wife's judgement, she seems to have more sensitive hearing than you do, most women hear high frequencies better than men. Then match the equalizer settings for the other channel to the first one and switch to stereo mode. Then make your comparison with Advent. You may have an entirely different opinion.

Yes, will try this. Thanks. I do have a Pas3 but it has a couple of problems right now.I do have a good EQ on the shelf. I am expecting the 3a's to put some distance between them and the LA's (no disrespect intended).

[soundminded]

FYI, the specific setting for the AR-3 LvR demo was mid and treble controls to full and preamp treble at +3dB. AR provided customers who wanted truly "flat" response with a similar recommendation for the AR-3a and AR-5 (they said "increase slightly" for treble, probably because the average customer at the time wouldn't have known how to get +3dB on an amplifier not calibrated that way).

The AR-2ax would require the mid setting to be a bit lower than the 3/3a or 5 because of the higher relative output of the cone tweeter/mid driver. I have mine set at about 45 degrees below full in a very "live" listening space.

Never having bought this equipment new (even my AR9s were demos without paperwork) I didn't know this but it strongly suggests that the "normal" position of the settings about midway between their extremes and the flat settings of tone controls on preamps would lead people like me to dismiss these speakers as not very accurate. The rolloff of high frequencies was particularly troubling and generally in a store, even if you get to adjust tone controls on a receiver you don't get to pull the speaker away from the walls and reset the level controls on the back. Had I known, I might have made different purchasing decisions at the time. AR2ax has another problem. The woofer is so much more efficient than the tweeter that even with the level control all the way up it isn't enough. The woofer overpowers the tweeter. The published curves for AR2ax drivers make much more sense now that I understand the mismatch between their efficiencies. In every setup I heard except the LvR demos, AR speakers came off as much poorer performers than they should have. It was also in an era when consumer equalizers were out of the question and so was the cost of bi-amplifying. Such problems which seem trivial today were not easily understood or cheaply correctable by consumers in the 1960s.

[genek]

Never having bought this equipment new (even my AR9s were demos without paperwork) I didn't know this but it strongly suggests that the "normal" position of the settings about midway between their extremes and the flat settings of tone controls on preamps would lead people like me to dismiss these speakers as not very accurate.

I suppose that depends on whether you buy into Villchur's contention that records of the period were too "hot," as well as the configuration of your listening space. My spaces have always been on the "live" side, and when my 2ax's were new I found that having the high control about 15-20 degrees down and the mid control about 30-45 degrees down usually sounded "right" to me (which was not necessarily "accurate," but was what I preferred) with my tone controls at neutral for most classical recordings. I never had a "usual" setting for non-classical recordings, which varied all over the place, and a lot of my old albums have little arrows on their liner sleeves indicating my preferred tone settings for that album (now useless because the electronics and environment are different).

[davidro]

FYI, the specific setting for the AR-3 LvR demo was mid and treble controls to full and preamp treble at +3dB. AR provided customers who wanted truly "flat" response with a similar recommendation for the AR-3a and AR-5 (they said "increase slightly" for treble, probably because the average customer at the time wouldn't have known how to get +3dB on an amplifier not calibrated that way).

I don't know what LvR demo is/was. But does that mean the AR recommended optimal setting for the 3a is to have the mid and treble controls to full and the preamp treble at +3dB?

[genek]

I don't know what LvR demo is/was. But does that mean the AR recommended optimal setting for the 3a is to have the mid and treble controls to full and the preamp treble at +3dB?

In the 60's, AR conducted a series of live vs recorded demos in which the audience was presented with a chamber quartet on stage vs a recording of the same musicians.

For AR's writeup on level settings and the rationale behind it, see

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/library/acoustic_research/original_models_1954-1974/original_models_manuals/ar-3a_ar-5_level_control_se/

[davidro]

Thanks. Is it fair to say most classical music recordings nowadays have reached that 'state of art speaker systems' that the adjustment is no longer needed?

[soundminded]

I suppose that depends on whether you buy into Villchur's contention that records of the period were too "hot," as well as the configuration of your listening space. My spaces have always been on the "live" side, and when my 2ax's were new I found that having the high control about 15-20 degrees down and the mid control about 30-45 degrees down usually sounded "right" to me (which was not necessarily "accurate," but was what I preferred) with my tone controls at neutral for most classical recordings. I never had a "usual" setting for non-classical recordings, which varied all over the place, and a lot of my old albums have little arrows on their liner sleeves indicating my preferred tone settings for that album (now useless because the electronics and environment are different).

Some recordings were hotter than others. I think it's a relative term. Variations in spectral balance of CD's is at least an order of magnitude worse than LPs. They vary all over the lot. It seemed to me Columbia Stereo 360 but not CBS Masterworks was generally bright. RCA Red Seal seemed neutral but their cheaper label Victrola rolled off. London FRSS was on the dull side but London Phase 4 had a wickedly hot high end. Cartridges mattered. Shure and Empire seemed flat and extended. Pickering and Ortophon had a HF peak. Audio Technica was horribly peaked. Pickerings were useful for high end packaged systems like KLH becaue they compensated for HF rolloff. Stanton was flatter than Pickering and suitable for audiophile systems. Most loudspeakers in the early 1960s had a high frequency rolloff. Horn systems like Altec had a very irregular and irritating treble, badly distorted to my ears. JBL Century 100 was very disappoiting especially with Audio Technica.

[soundminded]

I don't know what LvR demo is/was. But does that mean the AR recommended optimal setting for the 3a is to have the mid and treble controls to full and the preamp treble at +3dB?

On two occasions I had the good fortune at consumer audio shows to hear live versus recorded demonstrations where a musical instrument was played alternately with a recording made without echoes. In the first instance a guitarist was flanked by a pair of AR3s. In the second instance a 1905 Nickelodeon was on some sort of table and siting on the floor flanking it was a pair of AR3s. Flanking the AR3s were AR4xs. I can't say that the recorded sound was a dead ringer for the live but the were so close that I was very surprised and impressed. With the guitarist the recording was actually slightly, almost imperceptably brighter than the real guitar. With the Nickelodeon it was easy to tell because the speakers were near the floor. However the timbre was very close. Even more surprising was how close the AR4x came to it considering how inexpensive it was.

These situations were of course very carefully created, highly contrived, and not typical of what you'd hear from commercial recordings. The most surprising thing about it though was that in every other demonstration of AR3 before and since including a pair my friend had that I'd heard many times, that speaker and to a lesser degree AR3a seemed to me to have a rolled off treble. Now I have more insight into why.

[davidro]

On two occasions I had the good fortune at consumer audio shows to hear live versus recorded demonstrations where a musical instrument was played alternately with a recording made without echoes. In the first instance a guitarist was flanked by a pair of AR3s. In the second instance a 1905 Nickelodeon was on some sort of table and siting on the floor flanking it was a pair of AR3s. Flanking the AR3s were AR4xs. I can't say that the recorded sound was a dead ringer for the live but the were so close that I was very surprised and impressed. With the guitarist the recording was actually slightly, almost imperceptably brighter than the real guitar. With the Nickelodeon it was easy to tell because the speakers were near the floor. However the timbre was very close. Even more surprising was how close the AR4x came to it considering how inexpensive it was.

These situations were of course very carefully created, highly contrived, and not typical of what you'd hear from commercial recordings. The most surprising thing about it though was that in every other demonstration of AR3 before and since including a pair my friend had that I'd heard many times, that speaker and to a lesser degree AR3a seemed to me to have a rolled off treble. Now I have more insight into why.

That's interesting. Has there ever been an LvR that involves an orchestra?

[genek]

These situations were of course very carefully created, highly contrived, and not typical of what you'd hear from commercial recordings. The most surprising thing about it though was that in every other demonstration of AR3 before and since including a pair my friend had that I'd heard many times, that speaker and to a lesser degree AR3a seemed to me to have a rolled off treble. Now I have more insight into why.

I would presume that any recordings AR made for their LvR demos were recorded to meet Villchur's description of a recording that would not require the AR rolloff, hence the need for the "flat" settings.

Other than the two LvR recordings I was fortunate enough to attend, the only AR speakers I ever heard other than my own during AR's peak years were the demo units at the AR showroom at Grand Central Station and at the dealer I purchased my own from, a discounter who benefited greatly from AR's liberal pricing policy during the "Fair Trade" years and probably moved more AR product out the door than any other dealer in the state.

[ADVENTAGIOUS]

Do you mean it was trickery marketing? I wonder if (have to look again) Carlspeaks Super Mod addressed the tweeter roll off issue. Maybe he will see this?

[genek]

Do you mean it was trickery marketing? I wonder if (have to look again) Carlspeaks Super Mod addressed the tweeter roll off issue. Maybe he will see this?

There was a certain amount of slight-of-hand involved, yes. What the LvR demo showed was that under controlled conditions with near-perfect recordings the AR models being demonstrated could realistically simulate an original listening experience. They just didn't stress the fact that the average home listener was unlikely to ever achieve controlled conditions or obtain near-perfect recordings.

[RoyC]

We have to assume some thought went into the "white dot" level control settings. For each driver in every model equipped with pots the dot setting is different....AND there is only one proper position in which to install pots in each model (indicated by the notch in the crossover board). Novices usually assume the white dot marks the halfway point of the pot's rotation, which is never the case.

I for one have never placed an AR-3a or an AR-5 in a listening space where a maxed out midrange setting sounds pleasant, regardless of source material or room acoustics. In the 3a the midrange white dot setting is around a quarter turn off max. For the 5 it is nearly half way. For both models the tweeter white dot setting is just off maximum.

Roy