X-over Break In Period

[ADVENTAGIOUS]

I would have to think that many of the senior folks here have hearing losses above 10-12k so their white dot positions have moved. Has anyone ever taken a hearing test and then configured their gear to compensate for the losses?That might be quite revealing.

[JKent]

I would have to think that many of the senior folks here have hearing losses above 10-12k so their white dot positions have moved. Has anyone ever taken a hearing test and then configured their gear to compensate for the losses?That might be quite revealing.

Sadly, no amount of configuring will make up for what ain't there no more. I'm your age and recently had a hearing test. The doc told me my hearing is "excellent" and I have the "hearing of a child" (the wife says I listen like a child)

Well, I don't know what his criteria were because I know I don't hear anything above 10K Hz. Check out this site: http://www.freemosquitoringtones.org/ No matter how high you crank up the volume, if you're over 60 don't expect to hear the 12K and higher tones. That ship has sailed

Kent

[soundminded]

There was a certain amount of slight-of-hand involved, yes. What the LvR demo showed was that under controlled conditions with near-perfect recordings the AR models being demonstrated could realistically simulate an original listening experience. They just didn't stress the fact that the average home listener was unlikely to ever achieve controlled conditions or obtain near-perfect recordings.

I think it was remarkable that it could be done at all. This was in an era when there were no graphic equalizers for playback and I doubt at $900 a channel AR owned any (they might have but I have no indication that was the case or one was used for this purpose.) From what others have said, experiments to get satisfactory results revolved around microphone positioning to get an orientation that reflected the average spectral balance. That sounds like a reasonable explantion to me.

There is a certain smug certitude that this demonstration could be repeated today using any one of many modern speakers. One thing to keep in mind is that the audience sat at many different angles from both the speaker and the musical instruments. The uniformity of the AR3 tweeter even if not equal to AR3a I think had a lot to do with this. I'm not so sure you could convince a whole audience with speakers that beam their high frequencies nearly as successfully as AR3 did.

[Carlspeak]

I would have to think that many of the senior folks here have hearing losses above 10-12k so their white dot positions have moved. Has anyone ever taken a hearing test and then configured their gear to compensate for the losses?That might be quite revealing.

Somewhere in this forum is a thread dealing with a survey I took that asked 3a owners exactly how their rheostat knobs were set. I got a fair number of responses and the results showed the majority were listening to their 3a's with the tweeter setting maxed out and the midrange 'backed off a bit'.

[davidro]

Sadly, no amount of configuring will make up for what ain't there no more. I'm your age and recently had a hearing test. The doc told me my hearing is "excellent" and I have the "hearing of a child" (the wife says I listen like a child)

Well, I don't know what his criteria were because I know I don't hear anything above 10K Hz. Check out this site: http://www.freemosquitoringtones.org/ No matter how high you crank up the volume, if you're over 60 don't expect to hear the 12K and higher tones. That ship has sailed

Kent

I'm not even 30 yet but I can't hear anything above 8K Hz lol

But the only speaker for the internet output I have here is a tiny little speaker consolidated into a microphone (so-called 'dictaphone') and my office is noisy with A/C and the communal kitchen next door. I might have to try it again when I get home.

Somewhere in this forum is a thread dealing with a survey I took that asked 3a owners exactly how there rheostat knobs were set. I got a fair number of responses and the results showed the majority were listening to their 3a's with the tweeter setting maxed out and the midrange 'backed off a bit'.

That's usually how I listen to, too.

[davidro]

Ok I'm back home and tried it again. I can hear everything (up to 22khz which is the last one) now. Not bad at all! Good thing that I've avoided headphones all this time.

[genek]

A word of advice about the mosquito tones: don't use your computer speakers or earphones for the test. I scared the heck out of myself not hearing anything over 12kHz until I downloaded the audio files, burned a CD and played them through my actual audio system.

21kHz for the left ear and 19kHz for the right, not bad for 58. A lifetime of working with professionally-fitted hearing protection pays off.

[ADVENTAGIOUS]

I listened quickly this moring but had to go out. I couldnt hear anything over the 12k either. I'll get back after I download, burn and test. Thanks for the tip.

[michiganpat]

back to the OP's question, caps do have a definite "burn in" period...don't know how long that is though. I'd say by 30 hours of use, they should be stable and "burnt in"

[RoyC]

back to the OP's question, caps do have a definite "burn in" period...don't know how long that is though. I'd say by 30 hours of use, they should be stable and "burnt in"

According to Ken Kantor, a few seconds...and discernible differences in sound are unlikely. Personally, I have not heard differences I could attribute to this.

Roy

[Steve F]

According to Ken Kantor, a few seconds...and discernible differences in sound are unlikely. Personally, I have not heard differences I could attribute to this.

Roy

This is a hugely controversial topic, this whole 'caps' issue, burn-in, audibility of different types, etc. It's not going to be settled here with any sweeping generalities from any one or two members. I know many highly-regarded loudspeaker engineers who say that cap break-in and the like ARE audible and significant. I'm not about to say that individual A or B is right or wrong. There are lots of things at play here in the complex world of speakers, and no, no one has it all figured out.

If I were you, I'd take the 'Jewish Grandmother/Chicken soup' route: "It couldn't hoit."

Break 'em in for however many hours you feel will do the trick. This is a great hobby and part of the fun and satisfaction comes from believing that small things make a meaningful difference. If "crossover break-in" is on that list for you, don't let anyone deprive you of that enjoyment.

Now if you'll please excuse me, I need to go A-B some cables and rearrange my Shun Mook Mpingo discs. I can hear the difference, even if no one else can.

Steve F.

[ADVENTAGIOUS]

I am certain that my Large Advents improved since recapping. I would say it was more than 10 hours but less than 100.

[genek]

Now if you'll please excuse me, I need to go A-B some cables and rearrange my Shun Mook Mpingo discs. I can hear the difference, even if no one else can.

My wife and I are putting fire to a large bone-in veal chop as a blood sacrifice to the audio gods. A couple of glasses of pinot noir on top should ensure we perceive peak performance.

[ADVENTAGIOUS]

Well genek, it's gonna be hot dogs and salad for us tonight. Oh yes, we'll cap that off with a beer. Gotta same some money for audio gear!!!!! By the way........what passages will you be playing?

[dynaco_dan]

Well genek, it's gonna be hot dogs and salad for us tonight. Oh yes, we'll cap that off with a beer. Gotta same some money for audio gear!!!!! By the way........what passages will you be playing?

Hi there

I feel that the oil canister type capacitors are by far superior sounding.

The oil, depending on it's viscosity, allows the music molecules to slide right to the drivers without sticking.

It gives protection 24/7.

The newer oils even have an anti-knock mix ingredient, so that there is no knocking of the voice coil and magnet assembly.

This is some very insignificant trivia for today.

Have a great day.

[JKent]

The oil, depending on it's viscosity, allows the music molecules to slide right to the drivers without sticking. It gives protection 24/7. The newer oils even have an anti-knock mix ingredient, so that there is no knocking of the voice coil and magnet assembly.

thanks Vern

[RoyC]

I know many highly-regarded loudspeaker engineers who say that cap break-in and the like ARE audible and significant.

Steve F.

Really? Who are they? Of course engineers do have access to more sophisticated hearing aides.

BTW, the OP wanted to know if "breaking in" a new crossover would account for the sonic difference between a partially assembled AR-3a and a Large Advent. That proposition is absurd at best.

Roy

[Steve F]

Really? Who are they? Of course engineers do have access to more sophisticated hearing aides.

BTW, the OP wanted to know if "breaking in" a new crossover would account for the sonic difference between a partially assembled AR-3a and a Large Advent. That proposition is absurd at best.

Roy

I'd rather not name names. I'm simply reporting that there is a difference of opinion among experienced, well-schooled speaker engineers.

However, I completely agree that "crossover break-in" is not a factor in the rather startling sonic difference between a Large Advent and an AR-3a, especially a disassembled one.

Steve F.

[RoyC]

I'd rather not name names. I'm simply reporting that there is a difference of opinion among experienced, well-schooled speaker engineers.

However, I completely agree that "crossover break-in" is not a factor in the rather startling sonic difference between a Large Advent and an AR-3a, especially a disassembled one.

Steve F.

Well, I named a name, but I agree there have always been "differences of opinion" in all things audio. Do "they" have measurements to prove sonic differences?

One of the aspects of the hobby I enjoy is sorting out fact from fiction, and snake oil from useful material. While speculation fuels many audio forum discussions (and some audio parts/accessory businesses), I find it frustrating when nuts and bolts issues are confused with esoteric allegations and fantasy.

Roy

[Steve F]

Well, I named a name, but I agree there have always been "differences of opinion" in all things audio. Do "they" have measurements to prove sonic differences?

One of the aspects of the hobby I enjoy is sorting out fact from fiction, and snake oil from useful material. While speculation fuels many audio forum discussions (and some audio parts/accessory businesses), I find it frustrating when nuts and bolts issues are confused with esoteric allegations and fantasy.

Roy

No, there have never been any measurements to show this that I'm aware of, which is why I'm hesitant to ascribe such positions to particular individuals. Nor have there been reliable measurements --again, that I'm aware of-- that show differences in cables or other difficult-to-quantify elements.

There is a significant difference in the scientific/measurable aspect of audio and the esoteric/lore aspect. Enjoyment of the hobby depends on the individual's mixing of the two according to his own formula.

It's not for me to say what works for others.

Steve F.

[Carlspeak]

I believe the scientific community is still in the crawling stage relative to audio measurements. There is much yet to be learned. Who knows, maybe someday all of the subtleties of people's hearing will become measureable.

[RoyC]

I believe the scientific community is still in the crawling stage relative to audio measurements. There is much yet to be learned. Who knows, maybe someday all of the subtleties of people's hearing will become measureable.

I wouldn't go that far, Carl...The number of people debating this stuff is rapidly diminishing. The non-linear aspect of human hearing is known, and it is probably at the root of many differences of opinion and unmeasurable allegations.

Steve, people often visit forums like this armed with only the "lore". When they ask a question they are looking for an opinion. Hopefully it is an informed one.

I do agree, however, that much of the enjoyment of this hobby has been in the realm of speculation and subjective discussion. It becomes even more interesting when the primary participants remaining in this old hobby are basing judgements through, um, well-aged ears.

Roy

[Carlspeak]

I wouldn't go that far, Carl...The number of people debating this stuff is rapidly diminishing. The non-linear aspect of human hearing is known, and it is probably at the root of many differences of opinion and unmeasurable allegations.

Steve, people often visit forums like this armed with only the "lore". When they ask a question they are looking for an opinion. Hopefully it is an informed one.

I do agree, however, that much of the enjoyment of this hobby has been in the realm of speculation and subjective discussion. It becomes even more interesting when the primary participants remaining in this old hobby are basing judgements through, um, well-aged ears.

Roy

Here's what KK had to say about the extant state of audio measurement/perception research a while back (post #3). You be the judge...

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?showtopic=5344

[dynaco_dan]

Here's what KK had to say about the extant state of audio measurement/perception research a while back (post #3). You be the judge...

Hi there

I just went to that link, boy, was it tense reading.

I only read page 1 and left.

That was enough tension to this, supposedly, relaxing hobby.

[RoyC]

Here's what KK had to say about the extant state of audio measurement/perception research a while back (post #3). You be the judge...

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?showtopic=5344

To me that thread is just another non-productive debate between a handful of old audio geeks. I have had a number of personal discussions with Ken, and he is usually the voice of reason and experience in a sea of conjecture and hype. I doubt the research Ken sites has much to do with our typical activities or debates relative to old stereo speakers....nor does it imply that the scientific community is still in the "crawling stage" relative to audio measurements. Researching new ways to reproduce and manipulate sound, yes, but uncovering the mystical sonic properties of exotic capacitors and/or the "breaking in" thereof? I seriously doubt it.

The original premise of THIS thread illustrates the only point I feel strongly about in this conversation. Audio forum conjecture and esoterica regularly confuses folks who are simply trying to get an old pair of speakers to function properly.

Roy