AR 5s Some redoing

[DON]

Me again. I've got so many speaker projects going I sometimes meet my self going the other way. I have a pair of 5s with cabinets in pretty nice condition. The rear lower corner on one is smooched and the veneer is coming loose there. I can fix the veneer but since I'd like the corner to look nice I need some suggestions. I know Kent has done this type of work and I think I saw a post where someone had repaired a corner like this and it looked as good as new. HELP.

I hooked one up and it sounded awful (boomy one note bass) and since it had a replacement woofer I pulled it and it's an Excaliber. Good looking woofer but it didn't sound right in the 5's cabinet.

The other woofer looks original but it has a gasket on the front face of the frame.........is that the way AR made them?

Now I'll be working on the cabinets of the AR2ax and the 5s. Makes sense since I have two hands. Wax on wax off.

Y'all chime in anytime I hate talking to myself. I used to talk to my best friend but he died 2 months back. Vet said he had torn his spleen and bled to death internally. Had him since he was a puppy. He would act like he was listening to me but when I tried to play my guitar he left the room. Great company and protector. I miss him.

[JKent]

Hi Don

Lucky it was a back corner. My bash is on the front. But here's what to do:

1. take a hammer and pound the fibers down to try to approximate the shape of the corner "pre-bash"
2. mix up some tinted epoxy. You can use any clear epoxy but avoid the "5 minute" kind. The slower the cure the stronger.
3. tint the epoxy. You can use John O'Hanlon's recommended Mixol #22 (tobacco). It's available in art supply stores, woodworking stores and online. You only need 1 drop. So maybe try option # B: if you have been sanding any walnut or slightly lighter color wood, take the very fine sawdust from your dust bag and mix that in the epoxy goo.
4. create a form. It can be as simple as a masking tape dam
5. pour in the mixture and try to poke it down with a toothpick to fill all the voids. Just don't pierce the masking tape.
6. wait 24 hours or more. Peel off the tape and use a file to shape the epoxy filler. Sand carefully by hand--you don't want to sand through the good veneer

Attached are some photos (oops--they're in reverse order. Oh well). The bash was depressing. In the extreme closeup of the repair it doesn't look perfect, but in the shot of the speaker on the floor, the repair is hardly noticeable. And from a couple of feet away it's invisible.

If you look at this thread, Post #1, you can download my KLH Model Eight restoration guide, then see page 6

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?showtopic=6387&pid=87720&st=0entry87720

Good luck with the project. Bummer about the replaced woofer but fortunately they are pretty common.

Kent

[RoyC]

I hooked one up and it sounded awful (boomy one note bass) and since it had a replacement woofer I pulled it and it's an Excaliber. Good looking woofer but it didn't sound right in the 5's cabinet.

The other woofer looks original but it has a gasket on the front face of the frame.........is that the way AR made them?

Don,

Your AR-5 woofers should look like your 2ax woofers (unless you have the earlier cloth surround 2ax woofers). The same woofer was used for both models. AR-5 woofers did not have gaskets on the front.

Roy

[dynaco_dan]

Don,

Your AR-5 woofers should look like your 2ax woofers (unless you have the earlier cloth surround 2ax woofers). The same woofer was used for both models. AR-5 woofers did not have gaskets on the front.

Roy

Hi there

If I may a suggestion re anchoring the epoxy.

If a dingle is deeper than a nickel, screw one or more gyproc screws until their head is slightly below flush.

This will give you an anchor for the epoxy.

Just a thought for today.

[DON]

Thanks Kent. The view of the corner on the floor looks perfect. I'll try your method. First I need to get a couple of boards and four clamps and pull the veneer back even and get it glued.

[RoyC]

I always feel obliged to mention epoxy putty when this question comes up. I personally dislike working with drippy epoxy. (Kent is VERY good at it...I just don't have the patience. )

Unfortunately the putty available in most local hardware stores is usually grey or tan colored and requires touch up paint. There is also a brownish "plumbers" variety that takes a bit of stain, and can be blended with the tan stuff. A variety of wood colors are available from Mohawk Finishing Products http://www.mohawk-finishing.com/default.aspx but are expensive. The main advantage is it is easy to use. It dries plenty strong enough for any cabinet repair, including corners.

Roy

[DON]

Don,

Your AR-5 woofers should look like your 2ax woofers (unless you have the earlier cloth surround 2ax woofers). The same woofer was used for both models. AR-5 woofers did not have gaskets on the front.

Roy

Thanks Roy. Guess I need to pull another woofer. I've located another AR2ax woofer or maybe two. This seller won't get positive feedback.

[DON]

Thanks Vern. The smoosh is about 3/8" after the veneer is pulled back to the side of the speaker. I'll have to decide which way to go when the veneer is repaired. According to Roy looks like I need another woofer. Just can't catch a break buying from the bay but that's the only place I can find vintage gear. There ain't any $5 AR3as at my local goodwill!

[Tom H.]

I had a couple of corners on my AR-2ax's to repair that got damaged in shipping. I've CAREFULLY cut out the damaged corners with a good sharp chisel and fitted small solid walnut pieces back in place with good wood glue. It's a work in progress right now. I'll know more about the final results once I stain and restore the original finish. I think they will look pretty nice when I'm done and hold up well.

Lessons learned so far:

DON'T SAND THE EDGES OF ORIGINAL VENEER TOO MUCH!

[DON]

I had a couple of corners on my AR-2ax's to repair that got damaged in shipping. I've CAREFULLY cut out the damaged corners with a good sharp chisel and fitted small solid walnut pieces back in place with good wood glue. It's a work in progress right now. I'll know more about the final results once I stain and restore the original finish. I think they will look pretty nice when I'm done and hold up well.

Lessons learned so far:

DON'T SAND THE EDGES OF ORIGINAL VENEER TOO MUCH!

Tom you won't believe this but a few nights ago I was lying in bed and thought of using your method but I thought of using a saw. If you use a piece of walnut you shouldn't need to stain. AR didn't........the finishes are just oil. If you have a spare piece of the walnut try some oil and see if it looks the same.

[DON]

Don,

Your AR-5 woofers should look like your 2ax woofers (unless you have the earlier cloth surround 2ax woofers). The same woofer was used for both models. AR-5 woofers did not have gaskets on the front.

Roy

Just pulled the other woofer.............Realistic. Quite a combination...........Excaliber in one and Realistic in the other. This is for sure a two beer night!

[JKent]

Thanks Kent. The view of the corner on the floor looks perfect. I'll try your method. First I need to get a couple of boards and four clamps and pull the veneer back even and get it glued.

Based on John O'Hanlon's recommendation I found that Hide Glue works great for regluing veneer

Kent

[Tom H.]

Don,

Great minds think alike huh? Good point about the staining. I have to confess I applied a stain tonight to one speaker. It didn't seem to affect the color that much. I'm torn about applying Howard's Restore a Finish, clear or colored walnut oil finish similar to original.

For some reason, my AR-2ax's were pretty dark from the beginning. From what I can tell, they seem to appear darker than a lot of AR's from the same vintage. Perhaps it's the way they selected the veneers or the sun exposure they've had over the years.

The piece of scrap walnut I used to repair my speakers had quite a lot of variation in color between the heart wood and the outer grain with the heart wood being lighter. The guy I bought the scrap piece from says walnut tends to lighten over the years and matching old and new walnut can be a challenge

[DON]

Don,

Great minds think alike huh? Good point about the staining. I have to confess I applied a stain tonight to one speaker. It didn't seem to affect the color that much. I'm torn about applying Howard's Restore a Finish, clear or colored walnut oil finish similar to original.

For some reason, my AR-2ax's were pretty dark from the beginning. From what I can tell, they seem to appear darker than a lot of AR's from the same vintage. Perhaps it's the way they selected the veneers or the sun exposure they've had over the years.

The piece of scrap walnut I used to repair my speakers had quite a lot of variation in color between the heart wood and the outer grain with the heart wood being lighter. The guy I bought the scrap piece from says walnut tends to lighten over the years and matching old and new walnut can be a challenge

My European AR2ax have a somewhat more reddish cast than the other pair I have. If the piece is fitted tightly it may not be noticeable even if there is some variation in the color. I never stain any of my vintage gear and I don't think any manufacturers did. A simple oil finish would be much cheaper. Let me know how yours turn out..........I may try your method.

[JKent]

The guy I bought the scrap piece from says walnut tends to lighten over the years and matching old and new walnut can be a challenge

Absolutely. 50-year old KLH radios (what I work on most) tend to have light, golden-tone walnut veneer. I bought some new walnut veneer and by comparison it's almost purple-ish. Grain's different too. May be new growth vs old growth but it's impossible to get a match.

Kent

[DON]

Well the cabinet with the smoosh is much worse than I thought. It's not just the veneer that needs re gluing the bottom and side of the cabinet have separaed about 1'8" or more. I can't pull it back completely with the clamps I'm using so I'll have to try my pipe clamps that have more tightening power. I hate to mess with epoxy but I don't know if Titebond glue will hold. Nothing I can do that will bring the side and bottom flush and some type of filler will have to be used. I wish I knew how to post photos......shoot with my new Apple computer I can't even find them after they are uploaded.

Another question........I need to solder a wire to the connector on one side of the tweeter. Am I safe to just go ahead and solder or should I devise a way to connect something to act as a heat sink.

I can say with all the sureness of knowledge gained here that Advents are much easier to work on. Stock working tweeters and easily repairable woofers are plentiful and extra resistors and inductors of varying values are not required. Just when I think I have what I need I find that I need something else. It's not what's required it's that I don't understand it all. Everyone here has been more helpful than I could ever ask.. Maybe you really can't teach an old dog new tricks. When and if I ever get the 2ax and 5 working I doubt I'll try another AR unless................

[DON]

Apologize for the short rant. Everyone has been great help.

[JKent]

I can say with all the sureness of knowledge gained here that Advents are much easier to work on. Stock working tweeters and easily repairable woofers are plentiful and extra resistors and inductors of varying values are not required.

That's pretty funny. I have exactly the opposite experience. I've restored lots of ARs and KLHs but I'm intimidated by the OLAs sitting downstairs that need refoaming. That masonite ring ....

But seriously, I think you just caught some bad breaks. You apparently bought some lemons, maybe from unscrupulous sellers. But hang in there and we'll all try to help.

Kent

[DON]

That's pretty funny. I have exactly the opposite experience. I've restored lots of ARs and KLHs but I'm intimidated by the OLAs sitting downstairs that need refoaming. That masonite ring ....

But seriously, I think you just caught some bad breaks. You apparently bought some lemons, maybe from unscrupulous sellers. But hang in there and we'll all try to help.

Kent

I pay for everything I buy on e-bay with a credit card so if I can't work out a partial refund with a seller and e-bay/paypal won't correct I file a disputed charge with the CC company and that usually gets their attention. I'm never lucky enough to find a pair of AR3as at GW for $5.

I've only refoamed a couple of Advent woofers and haven't had to work on ones with the masonite ring. I hate to work with or around the minuscule wires coming from the tweeter and midrange speakers. I've got two extra Advent woofers and 3 pair extra tweeters (orange fried eggs) My 5012s and 25th Anniversary have different tweeters.

I worked on pulling and gluing the one cabinet back together and It'll be ok since it't on the back bottom.

Thanks for your help Kent.

[zaqueing]

Absolutely. 50-year old KLH radios (what I work on most) tend to have light, golden-tone walnut veneer. I bought some new walnut veneer and by comparison it's almost purple-ish. Grain's different too. May be new growth vs old growth but it's impossible to get a match.

Actually the walnut is from different species. The dark brownish/purplish is usually Black walnut. The lighter could be English, butternut, or some other species. Black walnut was popular in the teens to the 50's. Mahogany has the same problems. Some is very reddish, others is a light yellow. Different species from different parts of the world.

The next problem is the old wood has developed a patina that the newer lacks. So staining may be needed to match stuff up.

Good luck.

I found a pair of AR-5 at the curb that I'm going to see if I can restore/fix. Need new midrange pots as these had stems that got hot and melted. don't know from what. The woofers need re-foaming, and don't know what else. I got pots from AB Tech, didn't know where else to get them. I think I'll get the foam rebuild kits from Simply Speakers. Unless somebody has a better source. Also are there any specs on the AR-5's. I found the pdf on the 3a"s. But have no idea what's the same or different.

Thanks much for all the info I've gotten from here so far. It's a great site.

[JKent]

A pair of AR-5s on the curb! Outstanding find!

Those AB Tech "pots" for $12.60 each are really L-pads. Partsexpress sells them for about $5 each. I would suggest you check here before buying parts.

Simply Speakers is fine but I prefer M_Sound. Nice, very complete foam kits and lots of advice via email if you need it. He sells the Boston-style "filled fillet" foam that many experts here prefer:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/AR2ax-AR2a-AR2-AR-5-upgraded-reFoam-Kit-AR-10-Woofers-Speaker-Surrounds-/330639883716?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item4cfbac3dc4

Read his long-winded ebay ad and follow the links to his how-to pages.

Be sure to look at the AR-3a restoration manual:

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/library/acoustic_research/original_models_1954-1974/original_models_schematicss/restoring_the_ar-3a/

The 5 is sort of a 3a in a 2a cabinet (I have restored the 2ax and the 3a but not the 5). Here is a 5 schematic drawn up by member Carl:

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/library/acoustic_research/original_models_1954-1974/original_models_schematicss/ar-5_schematic.pdf

According to Carl's schematic, the 5 uses a 4uF, 24uF and 72uF capacitor. You can get good caps from Parts Express, Madisound or Erse. Defininitely use film caps for the 4uF. You could use either film or non-polar electrolytic (NPE) for the 24 and the 72. These film caps come in 4, 25 and 75 (all close enough) but the 75s are $18 each:

http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-metallized-capacitors.cfm

for the 72, you could use a 50 like this plus a 22. They only cost a buck or so each:

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?Partnumber=027-354

These Erse PEX caps are good. The 4uF is only about 1.23 and the 25 is 4.00.

http://www.erseaudio.com/Products/PEx250v

They also have NPEs

Be sure to look at the drivers in your 5s. The last time I saw melted stems on the pots it was because someone had put the wrong drivers in a pair of AR 4x's. Maybe post some photos for us.

Good luck with the project.

Kent

[zaqueing]

Thanks for the advice Kent. If I go with the 50-22 combo, do I daisy-chain them or saddle-back them?

Daisy chain is end to end, sharing just one wire. Saddle back is, both wires of one are connected to both of the other's wires.

I'm ordering the foam kits from MSound.

I read in posts here, and audiokarma that I need a 25 ohm resister placed across the driver terminals. I presume that is terminals 1 & 3 on the AB Tech L-pads. These correspond to 1 & 2 on the pots. 2 = B on the originals.

[michiganpat]

to add capacitance, you need to wire capacitors in parallel to each other, meaning "saddle back" I believe using your terminology.

[RoyC]

I read in posts here, and audiokarma that I need a 25 ohm resister placed across the driver terminals. I presume that is terminals 1 & 3 on the AB Tech L-pads. These correspond to 1 & 2 on the pots. 2 = B on the originals.

The 25 ohm resistor is placed across 1 and 2 terminals of the l-pad, which are connected to the driver terminals. It is the variable parallel leg of the l-pad (corresponding to 2 and B of the original control).

Roy

[Mach3]

Don,

Pipe clamps will be able to bring the sides flush again - use wooden blocks to keep the pipe clamps from gouging the veneer. You probably should clamp all three sides (top/bottom, front/back, side/side) so that when you "walk" the bottom back into place it doesn't distort the other sides. Clean the surfaces and put on your Tite-bond III (my recommendation) before you walk the piece back into place. (by "walk" I mean gently squeeze the out of place piece back into alignment). I would recommend that you use at least 5 sets of pipe clamps (not too expensive and really handy).

In re the damaged veneer - do NOT use epoxy to fill the hole. Cut it clean (use a sharp chisel) and square. Send me the dimensions and I will mail you several pieces of walnut (cut to your specs) for you to sample for replacment. Once you have glued the new walnut in place you can then gently plain/sand it flat with the other veneer. I do this all the time with my wood-working projects and it works so well that even I cannot find the "patch".

In re the wires; hope you are completely competent solderer. Basically those wires are something called "mag wire" - thin shellac coated copper used in winding magnets. You must clean the wire end of the shellac BEFORE it will take solder. So you can use lacquer thinner or acetone to clean off the finish. Once the finish is cleaned off then "Tin" the leads - that is to say get a thin coat of solder on each lead. Then final solder.

When you are doing this soldering do NOT spend much time on the wire (for you can melt the solder on the speaker side really easily). Use a low wattage iron (15 watt or so) and get in and out QUICKLY. Spend the most time on wire preparation - cleaning thoroughly - then tin - then solder together. Practice doesn't hurt - I think you can buy some "mag wire" from Radio Shack.

PM me your address and send me the specs (sizes) and I will be happy to mail you the walnut to match your dings.

best,

D