New here - 2ax questions

[1OldRocker]

All I wanted to do was get my Dad's old speakers working... Now, thanks to all of you... I'm hooked!

I have a pair of AR 2ax's that are in decent shape, but only the woofers work. I took one apart and while searching online for those infamous pots I came across this site. Wow! What a resource! Now I got the fever and want to restore these speakers to their original glory! (At least, to the best of my ability) I'm sure I can handle the re-finishing and mechanical stuff but I don't have much in the way of electrical knowledge.

I have a question that I haven't seen addressed in the forums. The pots in one of my speakers are good – just need a good clean up. The other two are OK except for the “wipers” - the part that contacts the windings is corroded away and doesn't make contact with the windings. My question is this: has anyone tried to make new wipers out of sheet metal or spring steel of some kind? I actually made a couple wipers out of a soup can lid in about an hour and they turned out good! I'll try to attach a couple pics of 'em. I think I have the “dimples” off just a bit though, they don't turn as freely as the original pots. They actually work though and I'm happy to know all my drivers are good!

Just wondering if anyone else has tried this. Also, how thick is the original veneer? I have some slight rippling of the veneer on top of one speaker that I'd like to sand smooth... don't want to go through the veneer though. Thanks to all who have contributed to this cool site, I've learned a lot from you!

[JKent]

HA! We got 'ya!

Welcome to CSP.

I was in a similar situation when I 1st joined--needed help with some old 2ax's. This is a great hobby and a great forum. You'll find lots of help here. Here are photos of that project:

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Boar...amp;#entry59728

The veneer on classic ARs is much thicker than the junk they sell today, but be VERY careful when sanding--especially at the corners where you can go through the veneer if your sander isn't perfectly parallel to the surface.

LOVE the soup can fix! Never saw that before. You are quite resourceful!

If that does not work in the long run you have 3 choices:

1) buy AR pots from one of us here or on ebay

2) use replacement ohmite pots

3) use simple and cheap L-Pads. RoyC has info someplace here on how to attach a resistor to make the L-Pads sound like original pots. That's what I did with my 2ax's.

Considering how corroded the wipers were I wonder if you might have the infamous rock wool stuffing. If so, it should be replaced with fiberglass.

Good luck and keep us posted. If you have not found it yet, be SURE to read the AR3a restoration manual. It is pinned to the top of the AR section and has LOTS of information that is relevant to your 2ax restoraation project.

Kent

[Tekker]

Nice job on the wipers. Maybe a little less tension and/or some lube may help them turn smoother.

Let us know how they hold up.

Bill

[1OldRocker]

Thanks Kent and Bill for the pointers. Yeah, I've read the 3a restoration - learned a ton of stuff! I remember seeing your pics before too, Kent - I hope mine will turn out that nice. I really appreciate this site. I'll have to find a lubricant for my pots, I think that will help. I think they'll hold up pretty well as I'll probably just set 'em and forget 'em. I don't think I'll use them a lot.

I plan to replace the caps and the grille cloth... my Dad glued some foam to them to "dress them up"! I don't think I have rock wool. Looks like fiberglass batting... but I must have different age speakers. One has the black pot knobs and one has the red. The woofers are slightly different and the enclosures too. Also, I don't have 2ax badges, just the AR inc. square ones, but the tags on the back say 2ax... Can these badges be shined up without removing the paint?

Anyway, thanks again! Any other insights, pointers or info is welcome.

Tom

[JKent]

I don't have 2ax badges, just the AR inc. square ones, but the tags on the back say 2ax... Can these badges be shined up without removing the paint?

Tom

Hi Tom

Earlier 2ax's did use those square tags. Unfortunately I don't think you can polish them without ruining the printed lettering. The tags that sy "2ax" in red are engraved and those CAN be polished.

Ebay seller "vintage AR" sells super nice reproductions. I bought the 1 1/8" square ones for my second 2ax project. Photos below. He also has repro 2ax engraved tags. Unfortunately, they aren't cheap.

Good luck

Kent

[1OldRocker]

I'm really having fun with this... I may have to find some more old AR's to work on! I've replaced my caps - thanks Carl! I didn't include a pic... I think everyone has seen enough crossover pics on here! I repacked all the fiberglass and sealed my woofers. I put the putty in a zip-lock and soaked it in hot water to soften it a bit. I was able to roll it out and re-use it. The cabinets seem pretty tight as the woofers don't bounce right back when I push in on them. A little black paint and they are looking pretty good!

Kent, did you get the cloth in your pics from "vintage ar"? My speakers have two different kinds of cloth - the older one has the "lumpy" looking kind and the newer one has a real even weave. I think I like the "lumpy" look better. I have another question: as you can see in the pic, one of my cabinets has this line around the front edge... can this be a solid wood face or just a small strip of veneer? Any idea why they would do that? Just curious...

Also, one of my woofers has the screen over the holes and one doesn't. That's not real important is it? I have the cab's packed pretty well and the original cloth in there too.

Hmm... I just had a terrible thought. I've had my speakers disassembled in my garage for a couple weeks... I wonder if a family of mice moved in... LOL!

Thanks for the help!

Tom

[genek]

Those are solid wood face frames. Early models of the 2 series had them, the same as the AR-1/3 series. Go easy if you refinish, because in those days the solid face frame wasn't always the same wood as the cabinet veneer and was sometimes color matched by stain.

[1OldRocker]

Those are solid wood face frames. Early models of the 2 series had them, the same as the AR-1/3 series. Go easy if you refinish, because in those days the solid face frame wasn't always the same wood as the cabinet veneer and was sometimes color matched by stain.

Good to know genek - I'll go easy on 'em. Thank you!

[genek]

Good to know genek - I'll go easy on 'em. Thank you!

Try some of the chemical "restorers," like Howard's or Formby's, or just rub the finish down with a scotch wood pad dipped in mineral spirits or naptha, before taking a sander to the wood. if you don't have any water stains or deep gouges, that may be all you need to blend the color and prep the surface for some new oil.

[RoyC]

Kent, did you get the cloth in your pics from "vintage ar"? My speakers have two different kinds of cloth - the older one has the "lumpy" looking kind and the newer one has a real even weave. I think I like the "lumpy" look better

This 18ct linen is the most authentic cloth you can get, but it is not cheap.

http://www.123stitch.com/cgi-perl/itemdetail.pl?item=59-135X

It is closer to original than Vintage AR's material.

Roy

[genek]

I have Larry's fabric on my speakers and a sample swatch of several Wichelt linens, including this one. Both of them seem too "finished" compared to the pieces of original fabric I saved from my 1970's 2ax and 6 and the older 3a's I redid a couple of years ago, which had darker fibers mixed in with the slubs. Visually, the closest thing I've seen so far is the WLG102 flax linen from http://www.wmboothdraper.com/Linen/linens_index.htm, which interweaves bleached and unbleached fibers, but when I obtained a sample from the supplier, its weave was too tight for use as a grill fabric. The search continues.

[RoyC]

I have Larry's fabric on my speakers and a sample swatch of several Wichelt linens, including this one. Both of them seem too "finished" compared to the pieces of original fabric I saved from my 1970's 2ax and 6 and the older 3a's I redid a couple of years ago, which had darker fibers mixed in with the slubs. Visually, the closest thing I've seen so far is the WLG102 flax linen from http://www.wmboothdraper.com/Linen/linens_index.htm, which interweaves bleached and unbleached fibers, but when I obtained a sample from the supplier, its weave was too tight for use as a grill fabric. The search continues.

It depends on the era. John O'Hanlon and I collected MANY samples from several AR eras when we were working on the 3a restoration guide, and spent the better part of 2 years collecting samples as replacement possibilities. The 18 ct Wichelt Lambswool is incredibly close to the popular late 60's to 1973-ish models....and "the search" is probably as over as it is going to get for that era. Larry L. (Vintage AR) said he would use it, but it is too expensive for him to make a profit. (He feels his cloth is "close enough"...and it probably is for most folks.) Around 1973 AR began using linen with a higher thread count, with the highest being 28ct in the late 70's on the 2ax.

Attached is a photo of the 18ct Wichelt Lambswool next to a piece of 1971 AR-3a grille cloth. The AR cloth is aged, but nearly identical. The "slubs" are there, just not as visible on the new, clean cloth. They become more visible when stretched on the frame, and with age.

Roy

[genek]

It depends on the era. John O'Hanlon and I collected MANY samples from several AR eras when we were working on the 3a restoration guide, and spent the better part of 2 years collecting samples as replacement possibilities. The 18 ct Wichelt Lambswool is incredibly close to the popular late 60's to 1973-ish models....and "the search" is probably as over as it is going to get for that era. Larry L. (Vintage AR) said he would use it, but it is too expensive for him to make a profit. (He feels his cloth is "close enough"...and it probably is for most folks.) Around 1973 AR began using linen with a higher thread count, with the highest being 28ct in the late 70's on the 2ax.

Attached is a photo of the 18ct Wichelt Lambswool next to a piece of 1971 AR-3a grille cloth. The AR cloth is aged, but nearly identical. The "slubs" are there, just not as visible on the new, clean cloth. They become more visible when stretched on the frame, and with age.

I agree, this is very close to that era's fabric. My problem is that I'm looking for the later material, which was on two of my three AR models and has always been more interesting to my eye. But thanks for the info on higher headcount. I was considering this material, but had thought its thread count would be too high. I may have to get some and give it a try.

http://www.wichelt.com/detail.html?pid=151602

[Carlspeak]

Here's a link to a 4 yr old grille cloth study I did on the AR3a. Thread count on samples I had was 20X25. What I don't know is if the 2a models clothing was any different.

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Boar...11&hl=cloth

The two most important sonic variables (granted aesthetics are also important) are % open area and the fuzziness of the fibers. Open area is a function of thread cound and diameter. This also establishes the basis weight (oz./sq. yd). More open area is better to a point until you begin to see thru the fabric to the ugliness underneath. I think Advent addressed this with a synthetic black mesh behind their very open 16 mesh cloths.

Here's another link with a cautionary tale to tell....

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Boar...2&hl=grille

[RoyC]

The two most important sonic variables (granted aesthetics are also important) are % open area and the fuzziness of the fibers.

Agreed....Some folks have been tempted to use burlap, which has a similar appearance to the 18ct AR cloth, but it is too fuzzy and thick. The 32ct linen found today in many craft stores is too tight.

Carl, actually KLH was using a thin black material behind the linen on many of their speakers before Advent (must have been a Kloss thing:-)). AR grille frames were painted black on the cloth side. The unpainted masonite is quite visible under the cloth on the new replacements sold on Ebay.

Roy

[genek]

Agreed....Some folks have been tempted to use burlap, which has a similar appearance to the 18ct AR cloth, but it is too fuzzy and thick. The 32ct linen found today in many craft stores is too tight.

I actually did use burlap on my 2ax's for quite a while, and though it was not the right look, it worked well enough for the sound. The important thing was to get burlap made of flax, which is not fuzzy, and not the jute stuff commonly found in most retail fabric stores.

[1OldRocker]

That's a lot of great information! Thanks to all of you who have done such extensive testing and searching out possible options for replacement grille cloth. I'm sure you have saved many of us huge amounts of time!

I fired up my 2ax's for the first time today, since I tested them after I got them. I'm absolutely thrilled! I had been listening to some mid 80's Realistic speakers I've had for ever - similar in size and configuration to the 2ax's. I'm amazed at the difference - the clarity is awesome, I couldn't be happier! I wish my dad could have heard them.

Can't wait to work on the finish and grilles! Thanks again for everyone's help.

Tom

[1OldRocker]

Update: Working 50 plus hours a week and haven't had much time for my AR's.

But, I got some Howards "Restore-a-finish" and ordered my new "AR" logo plates - ordering new grille cloth this weekend as well.

Started the sanding process today and noticed that my speaker with the solid wood frame looks like oak. May have to stain it to match the walnut.

Tom

[genek]

Started the sanding process today and noticed that my speaker with the solid wood frame looks like oak. May have to stain it to match the walnut.

It's most likely birch, and it would have been stained to match originally. Later editions of the 2ax replaced the solid wood front with veneer that matched the rest of the cabinet.

If you're going to apply any stain to the veneer, stain it first, let it dry and then stain the moldings separately to get a match.

[1OldRocker]

Happy to report that my speakers are finished! I'm pretty pleased with the way they turned out. Really, the only things I replaced were the caps, grille cloth, badges and finish.

I used a walnut stain on the solid wood frame that the one cabinet has, and then used Howards's Restore-a-Finish on the rest (after sanding). I think it's more noticeable than it originally was, but not real bad. The cloth was not too bad to put on - just had to keep the threads square with the grille and resist the temptation to put it on too tight. The spritz with water trick tightened the fabric up nicely! I felt bad about throwing the original AR badges away so I put them on the plywood, just below the tweeter connectors.

I want to thank everyone who left comments and helped me, on this site and off! I have a new appreciation for what it takes to restore these speakers to the quality I've seen on pictures on this site. Next, I'd like to build a pair of the "crossed" walnut stands for them!

Naturally, I have to post a few pics of my speakers 'cause I'm proud of 'em...

Thanks again everyone!

Tom