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KLH Model Fives Recapped

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Earlier this week I picked up my Model Fives from Carl Richard (carlspeak). Neither tweeter was working, and I suspected crossover problems. I had asked Carl to check the drivers, refurb the crossovers and polish up the cabinets. I can't say enough about the fantastic job that Carl did.

When I arrived to collect the speakers, Carl demoed them for me...and I've never heard these speakers sound anything like as good as they do now. In fact, they may not have sounded (or, for that matter, looked) this good when new.

Two thumbs up for Carl's Custom Loudspeakers.

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Earlier this week I picked up my Model Fives from Carl Richard (carlspeak). Neither tweeter was working, and I suspected crossover problems. I had asked Carl to check the drivers, refurb the crossovers and polish up the cabinets. I can't say enough about the fantastic job that Carl did.

When I arrived to collect the speakers, Carl demoed them for me...and I've never heard these speakers sound anything like as good as they do now. In fact, they may not have sounded (or, for that matter, looked) this good when new.

Two thumbs up for Carl's Custom Loudspeakers.

HI, IF YOUR STILL AROUND CAN YOU TELL ANYTHING ABOUT THE CAPACITORS HE USED, KENT IS REBUILDING SOME M5 CROSSOVERS FOR ME (I DONT HAVE HANDS ANYMORE) AND ANY INFORMATION IS HELPFUL, THANKS, ROB

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HI, IF YOUR STILL AROUND CAN YOU TELL ANYTHING ABOUT THE CAPACITORS HE USED, KENT IS REBUILDING SOME M5 CROSSOVERS FOR ME (I DONT HAVE HANDS ANYMORE) AND ANY INFORMATION IS HELPFUL, THANKS, ROB

Well, I'm still around at least. Didn't use anything fancy. Solen caps and mills resistors as shown in the attached pic.

post-100237-1209640339.jpg

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Hi Carl

Thanks for your input here, As Rob mentioned, I’m rebuilding his crossovers for him. But I’m a little confused (not unusual for me).

Here are some questions for you:

1. Did you leave the original components in there? (that’s how it looks in the photo)

2. Why replace the resistors? Do you recommend that? And if so, do you recommend Mills over say, Madisound house brand or PE Daytons? I know Rob wants to go with high quality parts and we’re looking at Clarity for the caps.

3. What are the correct values?

That last question is the sticking point. I have not seen Rob’s xovers yet, but he tells me they contain:

1) 25uF

1) 15uF

3) 4uF

1) 3uF

When I look at the schematics in the CSP library, they’re a little different.

The “MRDB” schematic shows:

1) 25 uF

1) 16 uF

3) 4 uF

1) 3 uF

virtually identical to Rob’s

I “think” your hand-drawn one shows:

1) 25 uF

1) 16uF

1) 5 uF

2) 3 uF

the values are slightly different but it seems one cap is missing (I’m probably reading it wrong)

Are these the correct resistor values

5, 6, 10, 15, 15

Anyone else wants to jump in here please do.

Thanks

Kent

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Hi Kent.

1) No, I removed the original components that were replaced with new ones

2) I like to replace the sand cast series-wired resistors with wire wound, non-inductor types like Mills. No preference regarding resistors. You may have a tough time fitting in the Clarity caps. I believe they are bigger than the Solens. The biggest fitting problem will be in the lower left corner where the bundle of caps is and also 2 new resistors have to be crammed in there.

3) The correct cap values will be the ones you find on the boards you get to work on. I have found some minor variations as evidenced in my hand drawn vs formal schematics you referenced.

I didn't replace the 25 uF cap wired in parallel for the woofer. You can if you want.

The resistor values you listed seem correct.

p.s. If Rob has a later ser.#, you may find a different looking xover board than the one in my picture. I have recently worked on a later version which is a PC board and not hard wired like the original in the pic. Have pics of the newer one also if you need them.

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Thanks a lot Carl. Expecting the boards tomorrow, but I believe they are the old type.

Must have been the 25uF "old" cap in the photo that threw me off.

I may have to fashion an "outboard board" for the caps. Fortunately, I have my own pair of Fives here awaiting xo refurb, so when I get Rob's boards I can see how they have to fit in the cabinets. I'll probably redo mine at the same time.

Thanks for the tip on the Mills resistors. I know people say "wirewound resistors never go bad" but the 5 ohm resistor on one of Rob's KLH Twelve xo's was burned up and broken in half, so I guess if we're going to the trouble and expense of putting high quality caps in, we may as well go with the Mills resistors as well.

You probably have not heard the last from me on this issue :blink:

Rob and I really appreciate the advice!

Kent

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Waiting for parts, but I'm glad we decided to replace the resistors, even though "wirewound resistors don't go bad." I noted in my previous post that in the similar KLH Twelves, a 5 ohm 5 watt resistor had burned up and cracked in half. Photo of the victim in this thread:

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Boar...=4111&st=20

As I feared, looks like the same resistor is headed for the same trouble in the Fives!

btw Carl, I've been referring to your drawings quite a lot. And yes, the Clarity Caps will be a challenge. I'm putting Daytons in mine, and they just fit. But while the Dayton 25uF is about 1 1/8" in diameter, the Clarity is 2 1/4"!!! We'll see what kind of multi-tier arrangement will work with those. I love a challenge :blink:

Kent

post-101828-1209960455.jpg

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Hello again Kent.

The Clarity cap size you quoted indicates you chose their SA Range which are rated at 630 Vdc. Cap size is roughly proportional to its rated voltage. Clarity's PX range cap is rated at 250 Vdc, the same as the Dayton and costs less than the SA. MPP film thickness also affects cap size. the SA uses 10 um film. PX uses 6 um film.

250V is plenty for a passive xover application.

Attached are before and after pics of one of a pair of Polk SDA SRS crossovers I recapped and re-resistored with a mix of VERY high end Duelund caps and resistors for the tweeter section and Sonicaps and Solens for the mids and bass sections. Now that was a challenge!

The Duelund resistors are quite unusual. They look like cinnimon sticks! They were so long I had to stand them on end. :blink:

post-100237-1209990027.jpg

post-100237-1209990044.jpg

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Those are some funky resistors, Carl!

Well, I've completed ONE of the 4 xovers here. I'm doing mine with Dayton caps and Mills resistors. The Daytons fit fine and the Mills are easy to work with because of their compact size. Next: Recapping Rob's Fives with the SA Clarity Caps. That will take creativity B)

Just watching for the UPS guy to deliver them.........

Kent

post-101828-1210277809.jpg

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Here are the Clarity Caps "dry fit" to see how they'll do. I'm thinking hold them down with RTV (silicone) and cable ties. I think this layout gives me enough room--may have to drill a new screw hole on one flange.

No resistors in these photos but as you can see in the shot in the previous post, the Mills resistors are quite small.

Any comments or suggestions welcome!

Thanks

Kent

post-101828-1210282703.jpg

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Those are some funky resistors, Carl!

Well, I've completed ONE of the 4 xovers here. I'm doing mine with Dayton caps and Mills resistors. The Daytons fit fine and the Mills are easy to work with because of their compact size. Next: Recapping Rob's Fives with the SA Clarity Caps. That will take creativity B)

Just watching for the UPS guy to deliver them.........

Kent

Nice job Kent!

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Nice job Kent!

Thanks Carl!

Here's one xover with Clarity Caps completed. I used "Goop" instead of RTV because it's stronger, and had to add the Masonite flange because one mounting hole in the aluminum flange is somewhat inaccessible under the big caps.

Kent

post-101828-1210358703.jpg

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Finished! :(

 

xo installed.jpg

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Finished! :)

I revived this thread today because I wanted you (Kent) to tell me if the Clarity Cap upgrade sound was any better, same or worse than the Dayton recap job you also showed here.

Can you recall if you did any listening tests to compare the two?

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I revived this thread today because I wanted you (Kent) to tell me if the Clarity Cap upgrade sound was any better, same or worse than the Dayton recap job you also showed here.

Can you recall if you did any listening tests to compare the two?

Hi Carl

Sorry-no. But Rob loves them. Maybe he will comment here.

Kent

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Hi Carl

Sorry-no. But Rob loves them. Maybe he will comment here.

Kent

Yes I really do like the sound of the Clarity caps, we used the SA range in my fives and I've never doubted myself about spending the extra money, I don't have the golden ears either but they do sound great and I always wonder what the difference would be if I used the SA grade in the Macs or the AR3a's where we used Solens,Daytons and Auricaps. I will say that we rebuilt a second pair of AR3a's for my youngest sons studio for a second reference pair and used the ClarityCap PX's throughout and the sound was very average at best my other AR3a's we used Daytons with Auricaps for the tweeters and they sound much better throughout the full range, I don't know if this helps, hopefully so..... :)

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Yes I really do like the sound of the Clarity caps, we used the SA range in my fives and I've never doubted myself about spending the extra money, I don't have the golden ears either but they do sound great and I always wonder what the difference would be if I used the SA grade in the Macs or the AR3a's where we used Solens,Daytons and Auricaps. I will say that we rebuilt a second pair of AR3a's for my youngest sons studio for a second reference pair and used the ClarityCap PX's throughout and the sound was very average at best my other AR3a's we used Daytons with Auricaps for the tweeters and they sound much better throughout the full range, I don't know if this helps, hopefully so..... :)

Yes, it does help. Check out this link - if you haven't already.

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Boar...?showtopic=5828

Judging from the high number of downloads, I'd say my efforts to put together that document weren't in vain....... :)

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A final thought on the Fives: After recapping mine I was a little disappointed. They look beautiful and were "supposed" to be KLH's answer to the AR-3a. They just didn't excite me. So now I'm trying to get rid of some of the many speakers I've acquired, and found a buyer for the Fives.

Pulled them out of the corner where they've sat for over a year to inspect them before packing. Then I noticed what I had never looked for before: The cloth woofer surrounds were quite porous. So, following the Service Bulletin #60 I applied Roy's sealant to the woofer and mid surrounds, and to the woofer dust cap. Fired 'em up and WOW! Now THAT's what they should sound like! Just as good as my AR-3a's and AR-91s (now I'm sort of sorry I sold them wink.gif).

SO...Before considering esoteric caps for your Fives or other cloth-surround speakers, seal the woofer surrounds. It makes a MAJOR difference!

One more note: Although the Service Bulletin says to seal the dust cap as well, I don't think it's necessary to use Roy's non-drying sealant there. The caps are quite rigid. Aleene's Tacky glue or white glue used for foam surrounds should probably work fine.

Kent

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Reading this old thread (2010) and the thread CarlSpeak linked, http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Boar...?showtopic=5828

I'm not allowed to email CarlSpeak directly... maybe he's no long in the forum?  Or maybe b/c he's an admin?

Anyway... does anyone happen to have the Word document he referenced about 'capacitor performance' in that '5828 thread?

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Sadly, our friend and moderator Carl Richards passed away a few years back. 

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