AR-3a Newbie Restoration

[sWilly]

I got one of the speakers recapped tonight. I'm wondering if someone with more experience with these can verify that I've done this correctly. The large cap is a 47 with a 3.3 strapped to it to replace the 50. The small pair is a 3.3 and 2.7 to replace the 6.

[RoyC]

18 hours ago, sWilly said:

I got one of the speakers recapped tonight. I'm wondering if someone with more experience with these can verify that I've done this correctly. The large cap is a 47 with a 3.3 strapped to it to replace the 50. The small pair is a 3.3 and 2.7 to replace the 6.

Looks good from here...

Roy

[sWilly]

16 hours ago, RoyC said:

Looks good from here...

Roy

Thanks Roy, much appreciated.

[sWilly]

I did a quick sound check on the speakers to verify I did the recap correctly. Everything seems to be working but I do have a question. The tweeter sounds really nice but seems to have a lot less output than the mid and woofer. Is this normal for these speakers? Or maybe I'm not using enough watts (tested on a 50 watt Marantz). I understand these speaker have a pretty mellow high end but they currently seem to lack air or presence. Thoughts?

I gotta say, the midrange is stunning. Female vocals felt like they were right in the room. Piano and upright bass- also stunning. 

[RickB]

You may the tweeters rebuilt Roy and Chris1 are the people to contact

[sWilly]

6 minutes ago, RickB said:

You may the tweeters rebuilt Roy and Chris1 are the people to contact

Yes, thanks, I've been chatting with Roy. I'm just trying to determine if they need to be rebuilt or if what I'm hearing is normal for these speakers.

[sWilly]

Well, the AR-3a's are recapped, pots cleaned, surrounds are sealed, and reassembled. I gave them a try last night and they sounded fantastic. I started with my 100wpc AV receiver because it's the highest wattage amp I have. It's sounded ok but I had to move the volume up quite a bit to get the AR's to respond. Meh. Then I hooked it up to my 20wpc NAD3020 (about 58wpc at 4 ohms) and they sounded awesome. I was barely pushing a watt and had some nice volume. The 3020 never fails to surprise me. What an amazing little amp.

Anyway, things were going great until I put on Billie Eilish's "Your Power" which is my go to test for deep bass. At a moderate listening level I started getting a buzz in one of the woofers, sounded like the coil hitting the magnet. I turned it down quickly and gave the woofers a push test. The good speaker took about 2-3 seconds to return. The one with the noise definitely returned faster but took at least a second. I'm going to try reinstalling that woofer to get a better seal and see if the noise goes away. If not, what are your thoughts? Rebuild?

[lARrybody]

Your on the right path resealing the woofer. Inspect that the surround and spider are glued down properly.  With the woofer out try running a 30Hz test tone thru it and listen for any rubbing noise. When reinstalling the woofer try a different orientation. Maybe rotate it 90 or 180 degrees.  Hope this helps. 

[RoyC]

9 hours ago, sWilly said:

 The one with the noise definitely returned faster but took at least a second. I'm going to try reinstalling that woofer to get a better seal and see if the noise goes away. If not, what are your thoughts? Rebuild?

The "seal" is not the cause of the distortion. The most likely cause is deterioration of the adhesive holding the surround and/or spider mounting rings to the woofer frame. Another possible cause is deterioration of the adhesive holding the cone and spider together. These are increasingly common issues unique to the AR 10 and 12 inch cloth surround woofers. I've been doing lots of these repairs of late.

Roy

[sWilly]

13 minutes ago, RoyC said:

The "seal" is not the cause of the distortion. The most likely cause is deterioration of the adhesive holding the surround and/or spider mounting rings to the woofer frame. Another possible cause is deterioration of the adhesive holding the cone and spider together. These are increasingly common issues unique to the AR 10 and 12 inch cloth surround woofers. I've been doing lots of these repairs of late.

Roy

Thanks Roy. After reinstalling the woofer and rotating it 180 degrees the problem is worse. If I depress the cone with a little more pressure on one side than the other I am hearing some scraping/rubbing. Are you up for another repair? 

[RoyC]

Just now, sWilly said:

Thanks Roy. After reinstalling the woofer and rotating it 180 degrees the problem is worse. If I depress the cone with a little more pressure on one side than the other I am hearing some scraping/rubbing. Are you up for another repair? 

Sure...send me a PM to discuss the details.

[sWilly]

Just a quick update on this AR-3a restoration.

Here's what was done- full recap with Mundorf caps, cleaned and re-installed the original pots, one woofer rebuilt by Roy C, and new sealant on the surrounds. 

Interestingly, at first I wasn't super impressed, particularly with the tweeters, which seemed really quiet. However, after a few hours things started sounding really good. I suspect that speakers sat unused for many years. I wonder if it's possible they needed a "re-breaking in" period? 

In any case, I am loving these speakers! Thanks for everyone's help in getting them restored. 

Despite the small, less than ideal, room they sound great. Now to build to some low stands to get them up off floor a little.

 

[genek]

What you experienced is most likely a common psychoacoustic effect. You had expectations of a particular sonic improvement (much higher tweeter output), and didn't appreciate the different one you actually got until you stopped looking for the one you had expected.

BTW, those speakers will sound considerably better if you can raise them up off the floor. 10-12 inches is good; double that would be better.

[Aadams]

10 hours ago, sWilly said:

Here's what was done- full recap with Mundorf caps, cleaned and re-installed the original pots, one woofer rebuilt by Roy C, and new sealant on the surrounds. 

Interestingly, at first I wasn't super impressed, particularly with the tweeters, which seemed really quiet.

Did you have the tweeters rebuilt?  Rebuilt tweeters add a lot of output at the 5k crossover region.

[sWilly]

20 minutes ago, Aadams said:

Did you have the tweeters rebuilt?  Rebuilt tweeters add a lot of output at the 5k crossover region.

No, they are original.

[sWilly]

8 hours ago, genek said:

What you experienced is most likely a common psychoacoustic effect. You had expectations of a particular sonic improvement (much higher tweeter output), and didn't appreciate the different one you actually got until you stopped looking for the one you had expected.

BTW, those speakers will sound considerably better if you can raise them up off the floor. 10-12 inches is good; double that would be better.

Yeah, I did consider that, but honestly I think they've opened up a bit. When I first got them I would turn the tweeters all the way up  and could barely hear them. Now the seem to match the other drivers nicely. It's possible I've tricked myself I don't think so, the difference is significant. 

I do plan on making some stands, but only a few inches. The wife nixed anything taller  

[Aadams]

1 hour ago, sWilly said:

No, they are original.

I have three pairs that were in same condition as your tweeters when I got them.  My speakers sounded warm, luscious, rolled-off, beautifully retro, but not modern.

The difference in rebuilt tweeters and merely working 50 year old originals is enormous. Freqs from 2500hz to 5khz, the last octave of musical instrument range, are all effortlessly reproduced by your midrange driver.  You are missing the sparkle of the natural second harmonics from 5khz to 10 khz, added by the 3a tweeter, that your ear was originally expecting.  They should sound modern, as your ear expected.

[sWilly]

11 minutes ago, Aadams said:

I have three pairs that were in same condition as your tweeters when I got them.  My speakers sounded warm, luscious, rolled-off, beautifully retro, but not modern.

The difference in rebuilt tweeters and working 50 year old originals is enormous. Freqs from 2500hz to 5khz, the last octave of musical instrument range, are all effortlessly reproduced by your midrange driver.  You are missing the sparkle of the natural second harmonics from 5khz to 10 khz, added by the 3a tweeter, that your ear was originally expecting.  They should sound modern, as your ear expected.

Interesting. I was originally going to send my tweeters to Roy for a rebuild but I no longer feel the need to do so. They now have the sparkle and "air" that was missing originally. Audible even though my old ears start to roll off at about 11k these days. They are far from modern sounding which is ok, and actually what I was looking for. My other listening rooms are B&W's and studio monitors so I really wanted something mellower. I can listen to these 3a's for hours where I tend to burn out on the other speakers pretty quickly. 

[genek]

It's always a tough trade-off, whether to expend time, money and effort to produce improvements you're not sure you'd even be able to hear. I decided a while back to hold off on rebuilding tweeters unless/until they actually stop working. What I have sounds good enough to me as it is.

[sWilly]

Yeah, that's exactly where I've ended up. I was waffling about getting the tweeters rebuilt, but the other day I was listening for a long time and realized I'm really enjoying them as they are. Besides, if I need some overly in-your-face treble I can listen to my B&W's. ha!

[ReliaBill Engineer]

You do know, don’t you, that if you rebuild the tweeters, and the output increases, that you have a pot you can use to turn them down? 
 

Just a thought….

My rebuilt tweeters output more than the midrange, and likely more than originals.  So I know I’m getting every bit of sound they have to offer, from 5K up to at least 15K. I turn mine down to 80% to compliment/match the mid and woofer. I can tell the difference between using different cartridges, such as the V15V-MR and the Pickering XV15 1200E. Before, the high end just wasn’t there, so it didn’t matter what cartridge I put on my tonearm.

[sWilly]

Yessir, I cleaned and rebuilt the pots so I am aware of their existence and purpose.  I may still do that someday. I'm just not really feeling the need to at the moment.