AR-3a : walnut version?

[powerglide]

On 8/1/2021 at 11:36 AM, Lucky Pierre said:

Hi Tom,

Here are some pics of my 3s in lacquered mahogany.  As you can see, these have battle scars.  I considered restoring the cabs, but as I mentioned earlier, lacquering is not my forte.  I've decided I will just clean them really well, then color the scratches, then wax.  I figure the scars tell a long story.

I'll post pics again when they are cleaned up.  Just waiting on my new workshop to be done.

 

 

Hi Tom,

Great speakers, the majority of those scratches will be just in the lacquer and will sand out easily. What ever finish you decide the best result starts with sanding them back to bare timber. I wouldn’t be temped in just disguising the damage. If the lacquer job seems a bit daunting you could (once they are sanded bare) use a sanding sealant as a first coat, sand smooth, clean with mentholated sprits and then wax, they can be buffed to any gloss level you want. Very hard to stuff it up.

  

[Lucky Pierre]

14 hours ago, powerglide said:

Hi Tom,

Great speakers, the majority of those scratches will be just in the lacquer and will sand out easily. What ever finish you decide the best result starts with sanding them back to bare timber. I wouldn’t be temped in just disguising the damage. If the lacquer job seems a bit daunting you could (once they are sanded bare) use a sanding sealant as a first coat, sand smooth, clean with mentholated sprits and then wax, they can be buffed to any gloss level you want. Very hard to stuff it up.

  

I have been considering just cleaning and waxing them and enjoying as is.  I am also considering sanding well, then oiling and waxing.  I have a pair of AR7 that were lacquered mahogany.  Those I refinished with an oil finish.  They are beautiful.

[tysontom]

On 7/31/2021 at 9:36 PM, Lucky Pierre said:

Hi Tom,

Here are some pics of my 3s in lacquered mahogany.  As you can see, these have battle scars.  I considered restoring the cabs, but as I mentioned earlier, lacquering is not my forte.  I've decided I will just clean them really well, then color the scratches, then wax.  I figure the scars tell a long story.

I'll post pics again when they are cleaned up.  Just waiting on my new workshop to be done.

 

 

Those scars are very typical of old lacquered-mahogany cabinets, and there is a history in each case for the battle scars.  My first AR-3 was in mahogany (it was a mono unit, all I could afford at the time), and I had it perched on a metal stand with a towel under it.  A family member needed the towel for something and moved the AR-3 and managed to make the bottom look almost exactly like the scratched bottom of this AR-3.  After many years, lacquer-finished mahogany (or black walnut) will not only easily scratch, but it dulls as well, as shown in the pictures here.    

I think that a mahogany veneer could be coated with something like Mohawk's M603-3016 Pour-N-Wipe finish:

 https://www.amazon.com/Mohawk-Finishing-Products-M603-3016-Pour-N-Wipe/dp/B07NC7VTJ3/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&gclid=CjwKCAjw3riIBhAwEiwAzD3TidYRTb0r-3uIRIFhG9p4B_oj1TYatND7JE4037fFYbaFvkqi43XmPhoCWiYQAvD_BwE&hvadid=418676322453&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9009599&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=1095600853971296636&hvtargid=kwd-883475645436&hydadcr=7693_9898649&keywords=mohawk+pour+and+wipe&qid=1628391453&sr=8-2

This Mohawk finish was developed for the marine industry, and the finish gives a satin finish that is difficult to scratch.  I've used Mohawk on oiled-walnut and oiled-teak veneer with great success, and it would probably work well with mahogany as long as the wood was carefully prepared prior to application.  Lacquer is wonderful and is the ultimate may to finish this wood, but it's difficult to apply.

Tom

 

 

 

[tysontom]

On 7/29/2021 at 3:59 PM, Freek said:

I found some other pics in my library. 

There is almost a faint outline of the cabinet molding in some of these images, particularly in the black-finish picture, which I assume is one of the speakers in question.  Yet perhaps the molding on these speakers was covered with veneer all the way to the edge of the speaker cabinet, as with some of the AR-2-series cabinets (and most of the KLH cabinets, but without actual solid-stock moldings as with ARs).  This must have been European-only (Holland or UK) characteristic in cabinet design for the 3a, as I'm pretty confident that the US-built AR-3as had the cabinet molding attached directly to the front baffle and sanded smooth with the sides of the cabinet.  Covering the solid-stock molding with veneer would also have been wasteful on the AR-3a, so it doesn't make sense.  

Tom

[tysontom]

On 7/30/2021 at 1:00 AM, Giorgio AR said:

Usually if the AR speakers have labels on the back, these allow you to distinguish the assembly and build status of the cabinets:
AR3a USA, on label is indicated: Serial no. 3A xxxxx
AR3a England, on label is indicated: Serial no.E (EA) 3A xxxxx
AR3a Holland, on label is indicated: Serial no. H3A xxxxx

In England, cabinets was built in Ingham ( Norfolk ), if I remember correctly.

Label AR3a USA made

Label AR3a Holland made

 

 

On 7/30/2021 at 1:00 AM, Giorgio AR said:

Usually if the AR speakers have labels on the back, these allow you to distinguish the assembly and build status of the cabinets:
AR3a USA, on label is indicated: Serial no. 3A xxxxx
AR3a England, on label is indicated: Serial no.E (EA) 3A xxxxx
AR3a Holland, on label is indicated: Serial no. H3A xxxxx

In England, cabinets was built in Ingham ( Norfolk ), if I remember correctly.

Label AR3a USA made

Label AR3a Holland made

 

This is partially correct.  After AR moved operations to Norwood and the new blue labels appeared, the AR-3a serial numbers no longer had the "3a-XXXXX" designation, simply the serial number.  But to the left of the number was the model number and wood finish.  The first AR models used an alpha-numeric numbering scheme, so AR tried different ways over the years.  —Tom

[Freek]

Dear all, thank you all for your extensive feedback! However, I can't find a clear answer anywhere about the finish of the speaker cabinets, is it oiled walnut or lacquered mahogany? Probably oiled walnut? If I understand it correctly, the speakers are produced in the Netherlands and of the AR 3A that are produced in the Netherlands, only oiled walnut versions are known. Is that correct? Or do you need more photos? Regards, Freek

[genek]

I'd be interested in seeing whether you've had success in removing more of the black paint from the grain. If not, you're going to need to stain the wood darker than it originally was so the black won't stand out so much, and as long as the identity of the wood is still ambiguous, you might as well decide whether you'd prefer it to look like a dark walnut or a dark mahogany.

[RoyC]

12 hours ago, Freek said:

Dear all, thank you all for your extensive feedback! However, I can't find a clear answer anywhere about the finish of the speaker cabinets, is it oiled walnut or lacquered mahogany? Probably oiled walnut? If I understand it correctly, the speakers are produced in the Netherlands and of the AR 3A that are produced in the Netherlands, only oiled walnut versions are known. Is that correct? Or do you need more photos? Regards, Freek

They were probably oiled walnut. I have seen many AR cabinets being re-finished in "Vintage_AR's" shop, and the lacquered specimens are extremely difficult to strip. They tend to come out blotchy and uneven. Yours appears to be much more uniform despite the black paint.

[Lucky Pierre]

12 hours ago, Freek said:

Dear all, thank you all for your extensive feedback! However, I can't find a clear answer anywhere about the finish of the speaker cabinets, is it oiled walnut or lacquered mahogany? Probably oiled walnut? If I understand it correctly, the speakers are produced in the Netherlands and of the AR 3A that are produced in the Netherlands, only oiled walnut versions are known. Is that correct? Or do you need more photos? Regards, Freek

Hi Freek,

Can you wipe an area of the veneer with mineral spirits and take a picture while wet?

The grain appears to be open.  I still maintain that these are mahogany.  In that case, if you want to maintain originality, they should be stained and lacquered.  According to the Finishes document I posted, the original stain was a filler/stain from Lawrence/McFadden, #23998.  The company is still around, but they seem to only sell to instrument makers and the like.  I tried numerous times to reach them to see if that stain was still produced.  My calls and emails were never returned.

If it is mahogany, you will have to fill the grain as well as stain.  There are many ways to fill grain.  Lot's of tutorials on the web.  Lacquering, as I have stated, is not my forte.  Especially  on something as large as the AR3s.  Small items can easily be rattle-canned.  To do a good job on these will require a HVLP spray gun and the appropriate spray booth.  Sprayed lacquer is exceptionally flammable.

If you choose to oil rather than stain, you can apply liberally two coats of oil with 220 or 320 grit sandpaper.  This has the effect of filling the gain with the sanding dust mixed with oil. 

Peter

[Lucky Pierre]

Roy, I am curious--have you tried what I call the drench and soak method of stripping lacquer?  I did this on a pair of cabinets from the 50s.

I first lightly sanded the cabinets, then I laid old towels on one side and drenched the towel with lacquer thinner.  I then wrapped it all in plastic wrap to keep the thinner from evaporating.  After about 15-20 minutes, the old lacquer pretty much wiped off.  It still required a fair amount of sanding after, though.

Peter

[RoyC]

2 hours ago, Lucky Pierre said:

Roy, I am curious--have you tried what I call the drench and soak method of stripping lacquer?  I did this on a pair of cabinets from the 50s.

I first lightly sanded the cabinets, then I laid old towels on one side and drenched the towel with lacquer thinner.  I then wrapped it all in plastic wrap to keep the thinner from evaporating.  After about 15-20 minutes, the old lacquer pretty much wiped off.  It still required a fair amount of sanding after, though.

Peter

Hey Peter,

Wow, I hope you have a well ventilated space! Actually, I have no personal experience with removing lacquer. I've only watched the guys struggle with sanding and re-applying a new consistent finish, and I have never known them to refinish with lacquer.

Frankly, I have never liked a lacquer finish for speakers or anything else.

Roy

[Lucky Pierre]

15 hours ago, Freek said:

Dear all, thank you all for your extensive feedback! However, I can't find a clear answer anywhere about the finish of the speaker cabinets, is it oiled walnut or lacquered mahogany? Probably oiled walnut? If I understand it correctly, the speakers are produced in the Netherlands and of the AR 3A that are produced in the Netherlands, only oiled walnut versions are known. Is that correct? Or do you need more photos? Regards, Freek

 

 

Edited August 11, 2021 by Lucky Pierre
Deleted. Mispost

[Lucky Pierre]

Hi Roy,

It was in a very well ventilated garage!  And I won't do it again!

The key to a good lacquer refinishing job is extensive prep.  Not just stripping and sanding, but thorough cleaning as well.  Any remnants of anything with silicone will ruin the finish.  You also have to be very patient and very exacting if you try to do this outside a climate controlled spray booth.  Temp and humidity have to be just right.  Sealing and sanding between coats has to be just right.  The working time is really short.  I feel lacquering something as large as the AR3 takes a lot of practice.

I find lacquer to be a beautiful finish on the right piece.  Not ARs, though. 🙂

Peter

[genek]

I'm wondering if it might be something less expensive that got a "walnut effect" finish. Like quarter sawn beech, for example. The stripped wood seems a bit light for either walnut or mahogany.

[Lucky Pierre]

Hi all,

Upon more research, I think I might be wrong about these being mahogany. The grain on walnut is much tighter--it looks closer to freek's earlier pictures.

 

@FreekYou can use paint stripper and a soft brass brush to try to get as much of the paint out of the grain.  If you are oiling, I recommend using something like Watco Danish Oil in either medium or dark walnut.

After stripping again, I would sand from 120 to 180 grit, vacuum off all dust then clean with mineral spirits.  Let dry 30-60 minutes, then apply the oil with 180 grit sandpaper for the first coat, let sit for 20-30 minutes, then wipe dry.  Next day, if you still have grain to fill, apply the second coat of oil, apply with 220 grit sandpaper, wipe dry after 15-20 minutes.  If you are happy with the grain after the first application, simply apply the second coat of oil with a cloth, then wipe dry after 15-20 minutes.  Let oil dry for 24-48 hours.  Longer is better, usually. 

The 220 grit can serve as you final sanding.  You can go to 320 grit for the second application of oil if you want a smoother finish.  After 2-3 days, apply a quality wax, then buff out.  I am a fan of Howard's Feed-n-Wax.  It is easy to apply, and it is easy to reapply after 12-16 months.  One or two coats should suffice.

BTW, when you sand the veneer without oil, collect the sanding dust you generate in a small jar.  If you ever have to touch up walnut, you can mix the dust with your oil to fill defects.

Peter

[tysontom]

On 8/10/2021 at 5:34 PM, RoyC said:

They were probably oiled walnut. I have seen many AR cabinets being re-finished in "Vintage_AR's" shop, and the lacquered specimens are extremely difficult to strip. They tend to come out blotchy and uneven. Yours appears to be much more uniform despite the black paint.

I agree with Roy.  I think these are oiled-walnut cabinets with quarter-cut grain, giving the straight sap lines -- with all of the veneer flitches from the same lot, likely.  I also think I see the "demarcation" line between the molding and the side-veneer panel.  It is very close.  Tom

[tysontom]

On 7/31/2021 at 9:36 PM, Lucky Pierre said:

Hi Tom,

Here are some pics of my 3s in lacquered mahogany.  As you can see, these have battle scars.  I considered restoring the cabs, but as I mentioned earlier, lacquering is not my forte.  I've decided I will just clean them really well, then color the scratches, then wax.  I figure the scars tell a long story.

I'll post pics again when they are cleaned up.  Just waiting on my new workshop to be done.

 

 

You know, I rattled on about refinishing these cabinets, but you mentioned that you might just enjoy them like they are now for awhile.  There are several things you can do, but first and foremost is to get a scratch-covering solution such as the all-time favorite -- and still among the best -- Old English Scratch Cover.  Get the dark wood or mahogany version, and you will be amazed at how much better it will make the cabinets look!  Sorry I didn't mention this at the beginning. 

https://www.amazon.com/Old-English-Furniture-Polish-Scratch/dp/B01J05XFSO?ref_=fspcr_pl_dp_5_15524341011

-Tom Tyson

[JKent]

On 8/10/2021 at 5:38 PM, Lucky Pierre said:

If you choose to oil rather than stain, you can apply liberally two coats of oil with 220 or 320 grit sandpaper.  This has the effect of filling the gain with the sanding dust mixed with oil. 

Peter

Here's how:

http://www.antiquerestorers.com/Articles/SAL/smothoil.htm

[genek]

FYI, Watco and other "Danish oil" finishes are oil/varnish blends, and it is the varnish that is acting as the binder to turn the sanding dust into a viable grain filler. If you use an oil (linseed, tung, etc.) finish that doesn't include varnish you may get a goo that never hardens.

The traditional technique for making filler out of sawdust involves mixing the sawdust with wood glue, or applying multiple coats of shellac or varnish, sanding between coats and rubbing the wood/finish sawdust blend that results into the wood between coats.

Note that these techniques will result in a finish that is a coating and not a true "oil finish" that can be touched up later by wiping on more oil the way AR originally recommended.

[Freek]

Thank you everybody for the useful posts! Today I finished the second cabinet. I post some new pics. Maybe it is now clear whether it is walnut or mahogany? Personally I think walnut, because the paint came off very easily and there was minimal damage due to use and not from removing a layer of mahogany lacquer before, as I understand that removing such lacquer is very difficult and can damage the cabinets. So what is the final judgement?

[genek]

Probably walnut. The straight, ribbon-like grain appears to be the result of using narrow bands of veneer from very young trees.

[tysontom]

On 8/10/2021 at 9:01 PM, Lucky Pierre said:

Hi Roy,

It was in a very well ventilated garage!  And I won't do it again!

The key to a good lacquer refinishing job is extensive prep.  Not just stripping and sanding, but thorough cleaning as well.  Any remnants of anything with silicone will ruin the finish.  You also have to be very patient and very exacting if you try to do this outside a climate controlled spray booth.  Temp and humidity have to be just right.  Sealing and sanding between coats has to be just right.  The working time is really short.  I feel lacquering something as large as the AR3 takes a lot of practice.

I find lacquer to be a beautiful finish on the right piece.  Not ARs, though. 🙂

Peter

"I find lacquer to be a beautiful finish on the right piece.  Not ARs, though."

Peter, if you have seen a Steinway piano in lacquered walnut, black-lacquer or mahogany, the finish is smooth with a satin luster and no pores showing -- reflecting the proper technique for sealing before applying numerous coats of lacquer spray.  AR's supplying cabinet shops applied those finishes prior to delivering the cabinets to the AR factory for completion.   Lacquered AR cabinets are really beautiful, but lacquered finishes are extremely high maintenance and prone to scratching.  You can almost look at one and a scratch will appear.  AR cabinets had lacquer finishes applied the same way as Steinway & Sons pianos, but probably not with as much manual attention and hand-polishing, etc.  The technique was the same, however.  Ironically, an AR-3 in lacquered mahogany was somewhat less expensive than the same speaker in walnut when, if fact, it was much more expensive to finish with a lacquer coat than boiled linseed oil.  It's just that African mahogany was more common and a less-expensive wood than American black walnut back at that time.  

The problem is that today, 50 to 60 years down the road, these cabinets have dulled, turned opaque, become scratched and generally left to deteriorate, and this is true of many old Steinway pianos, too.  But if you could see how beautiful these AR cabinets were when new, you would think very differently.   

Tom

[Lucky Pierre]

Hi Tom,

I have no doubt that a pair of ARs properly lacquered are a thing of beauty.   I know the fine lacquer finish of which you speak.

I have contemplated sending my AR3 cabinets to a furniture maker to have them properly re-finished.  I am not sure I want the expense, though.  Like I mentioned earlier, the scars on mine tell a tale.  It is a tale I think I will be happy have in the collection.  I just might try your suggestion on Old English Scratch Cover.  On the bottom, of course, to see the results.

Peter