How would you achieve that AR sound modern components?

[genek]

I was referring to "modern," i.e., currently being made products, seeing as how that's what this whole discussion is theoretically supposed to be about.

[Aadams]

The question is "How would you achieve that "AR Sound" with modern components?  Another question is, which AR sound?   The sound of an AR3a or the sound of a later AR like one of the 9s.  There is a big difference, most of which is not in the bass region.

Adams

[genek]

The biggest difference between "modern" speakers and speakers that produce that "AR Sound," whether classic or post-classic, seems to be how the drivers are distributed between cabinets and how low the bass goes. I think we've already established that differences in voicing would be handled by EQ.

[philip Salisbury]

If the belief of " I think we've already established that differences in voicing would be handled by EQ. "

It will help but it is not a real fix.

I  know I am listed as a Newbie but I have been mixing in a studio or live since 1968.

Some people may think that a high quality 1/3rd octave or 4+ band parametric will deliver the same results, but not to a person that really has the time, equipment, & environment to do critical listening.

I am saying this so some other NEWBIE doesn't go out & buy a $500.00 to $2,000.00 eq. thinking that will solve it.

I my humble opinion & I must admit I only have a set of AR LST/2's & not a few different sets. But from what little I have found out so far is that the AR's are very well designed.

Not only are the networks inside well thought out but the components are well built & specially constructed.

 

[genek]

It would probably be more accurate to say that the differences in voicing would have to be handled by EQ. Because the chances of finding speakers whose voicing is already consistent with the sound of a 40+ year old speaker design are nil.

[Aadams]

4 hours ago, genek said:

It would probably be more accurate to say that the differences in voicing would have to be handled by EQ. Because the chances of finding speakers whose voicing is already consistent with the sound of a 40+ year old speaker design are nil.

I don’t know exactly how to describe this but I will try.  Although the EQ will allow you to come very close to matching the frequency balance, an AR 12” three way will never have the clarity of an AR 4 way through 1300hz. You can verify this by equalizing a good 8 inch or 6 inch speaker to an AR 12 inch three way.  Reading this may make the contrast sound small but to give perspective, 42Hz to 1300hz covers over six of the entire 8 octaves of written music.  The 4 octaves beginning at 80hz, include all of human voice, all of the most common instruments of non classical music and important identity harmonics and overtones. Above 1300hz  are the highest musical notes, represented by the last 21 keys on a piano keyboard, more harmonics and overtones which add air and realism, but an area in which most people’s ears are less attuned than in the lower more critical range.  The practical effect is “Free Man in Paris” or “Paradise by the Dashboard Lights” on an AR 4 way will have the clarity of the smaller speaker with the bass of a 12 inch. 

Adams

[genek]

In which case your "modern" speakers will have to include the equivalent set of drivers. And then they will still need to be EQ'ed.

[Aadams]

10 hours ago, genek said:

In which case your "modern" speakers will have to include the equivalent set of drivers. And then they will still need to be EQ'ed.

Agree about the EQ.  Even ARs need EQ especially the later ones with no attenuation switches.   Today, the 200hz -20khz spanned by the three upper drivers in the AR 4ways can be easily covered by a solid 5" two way so the driver compliment would not be the same as in 1979.  

[genek]

For someone wanting to recreate a 4-way, this might be of interest:

https://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio_visual/speaker_systems/ns-6490/index.html

But I wonder, would you need two 12" subwoofers for each, or would one each be enough?

[genek]

And if what you want is something AR-3-ish, can live with bass-reflex rather than acoustic suspension, have $15,000 to spare and can wait for them to be shipped to you from overseas, there's this:

https://europe.yamaha.com/en/products/contents/audio_visual/ns-5000/index.html

[Aadams]

58 minutes ago, genek said:

For someone wanting to recreate a 4-way, this might be of interest:

Have zero interest. If you like those give them a try and report back.  My choices, if new,  at the moment would be NHT SuperZero 2.1or a BA A23.    One AR 12" per side would be sufficient.   The objective is not to recreate the four way but to restrict the 12"woofer to its lowest distortion range.   This should yiedl AR98ls sound quality which is better than any AR three way beginning with the ADD models IN MY OPINION.  If you want more power handling it would be easy to scale.

Adams

 

 

[genek]

I have no idea how any of this stuff would sound. I'm just browsing product specs and trying to play the "how would you" game.

[Aadams]

11 hours ago, genek said:

For someone wanting to recreate a 4-way

RE: your statement about recreating an AR 4 way was an oblique reference to a budget.  The total current price to set a pair of correctly working AR 4 ways in your listening space, depending on your location, is between $900 and $2000. 

11 hours ago, genek said:

And if what you want is something AR-3-ish

ALTYamaha: If I were getting a new ported 3way with zero WAF concern, I would look at these instead but they still need a sub woofer.  This isn't happening ---------just talk.

https://www.jbl.com/studio-monitors/LSR6332R.html?mrkgcl=741&mrkgadid=3277020484&rkg_id=h-34eb7610d9fe4ac3e9257a267087e337_t-1523885412&product_id=LSR6332R&adpos=1o3&creative=252671587334&device=c&matchtype=&network=g&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI6Ne7wPO-2gIVwyOBCh39HAMlEAQYAyABEgLvZfD_BwE

Note: If a person prefers the pre-ADD sheer silk sound of the 3 series, LST or LST2, he or she might want to  purchase a properly working set of those and not try this approach because IMO it will not be successful.

Adams

[genek]

2 hours ago, Aadams said:

RE: your statement about recreating an AR 4 way was an oblique reference to a budget.  

No. I went looking for a 3-way acoustic suspension speaker one could add a 12" subwoofer to, and that Yamaha bookshelf box seems to be the only one there is.

[Aadams]

25 minutes ago, genek said:

No.

Not saying you intentionally implied a budget but the OP set a bar of "not mortgage the house".  Two SVS subs and 2 NHT 2.1s are approx $1250.  2 non-collector AR12" $300, 1 DSP amp $250  2 NHTs  $250 equals total $700.  I set of of AR3 $1500 +/- ?  AR 90, AR9,  LS, LSi,  working and delivered $1250 -$2000.  I could be off but not much.

 

 

[soundminded]

It's a tough problem. There are still a lot of AR 12" woofers out there that can be restored. The original larger Advent woofer may be comparable. Others used it including John Dahlquist in his famous DQ-10.  Finding a paper cone woofer manufactured today that is a close match for the AR woofer is a tough one.  There are some dome midranges around but you need to find one with a low Fs. It should be no higher than 1/2 the crossover frequency. The tweeter is the real killer. I don't know of any dome tweeters made today that come remotely close to the AR3a 3/4" tweeter for dispersion. Even the tweeter in the AR9 is no match in dispersion for the AR3a because the dome is slightly recessed. Perhaps an array of 3/8 inch mylar tweeters could work. For the crossover network you're on your own. I'd likely buy an active crossover network and triamplify it. I think the problem with a poly woofer if you can find one that's comparable to the AR 12" woofer is at the high end. It could be useful if you wanted to duplicate something like an AR9 where the crossover frequency is 200 hz. You have a wide choice of 8" paper cone lower midrange drivers usually sold as woofers.

[genek]

The original question assumed that someone wanted "acoustic suspension sound" and was tired of trying to keep old speakers alive. So the "modern components" being referred to are whole speakers that can be bought today and somehow combined and/or manipulated into producing AR-like sound (either Classic or post-Classic, since no particular AR era was specified).

We already have plenty of other discussions about suitable replacement drivers, and there's already an old discussion somewhere about how a new speaker could be built from scratch with new parts that could be revived if anyone is interested, but that would be at least as much work as trying to keep an old speaker alive. So let's not confuse this one.

[onplane]

On 4/16/2018 at 12:02 PM, genek said:

No. I went looking for a 3-way acoustic suspension speaker one could add a 12" subwoofer to, and that Yamaha bookshelf box seems to be the only one there is.

Gene, is there any reason you did not chose this option?

https://www.nhthifi.com/products/16546-c-3-bookshelf-loudspeaker?category_id=1964842-bookshelf-speakers#specs

Now, I felt the unit went too low and would overlap too much the SVS sealed 12 inch sub.

Regards,

Jerry

[genek]

Probably because it just didn't show up when I googled "3 way acoustic suspension speaker."

Would it be enough just to use the subwoofer's low-pass, or would you want an external crossover that rolls off the lows on the satellites as well?

[onplane]

15 minutes ago, genek said:

Probably because it just didn't show up when I googled "3 way acoustic suspension speaker."

Would it be enough just to use the subwoofer's low-pass, or would you want an external crossover that rolls off the lows on the satellites as well?

Well, Gene, that is exactly the problem and why I choose the SuperZero - in hopes that its natural roll off would NOT overlap the SVS unit in the LOWEST frequencies.

I don't know, but my gut feel is a single low frequency driver would yield the clearest, cleanest bass. 

Regards,

Jerry

 

[Aadams]

5 hours ago, onplane said:

 that is exactly the problem and why I choose the SuperZero - in hopes that its natural roll off would NOT overlap the SVS unit in the LOWEST frequencies.

I don't know, but my gut feel is a single low frequency driver would yield the clearest, cleanest bass. 

I am not going to hijack this thread, but I want to reiterate a point that has been made at least twice earlier. The topic is “how would you achieve the “AR sound” with modern components?”--- not current production.   Pete B has pointed out that it can be done with an equalizer and used BA T 1030s.  I have said it can be done with an equalizer and any AR12” woofer and used satellites.  I feel sure both approaches rival the sound of an AR 4way.  I know it is true in one case.

The OP suggested powered subs and satellites so, in deference, we are exploring that path but, he has not said which of his ARs is the target.  The AR3a sound will be near impossible so, are we aiming for a 910 sound?

Onplane, if you actually pull the trigger on this project, after getting everything set up, are you going to trust your ear and say close enough is OK or AB against one of your ARs?  

Are you awaiting assurance that the NHT roll off will blend with the sub-woofer?  No one here seems to know.  Would you consider using a high cut filter in case it doesn’t blend?  Will you be using an equalizer?  Or, are you expecting the sub and sat combo to meet expectations out of box once they are wired up and balanced?

Am I being too forward?

Adams

[genek]

The original question specified "devices in today's audio market."

[ar_pro]

Having once owned the NHT Classic Three, let me modestly remark that this speaker's overall presentation has little in common with the characteristic attributes of any Classic-era AR system, or any speaker from the "Verticals" series that I've ever heard, which would be all of them.

In fact, the sound is very much "modern" in the way of many loudspeakers these days, especially stand-mounted monitor types, with an emphasis on mid & upper range clarity, "imaging" depth, and a taught, but unextended LF response.  And I'm a little unconvinced that the woofer is actually an a-s design in that it has an unusually stiff suspension, and is far outpaced in bass extension by anything I've ever encountered from AR, Advent, or KLH.

The Classic Three is a very nice little speaker, with a high-quality finish & appearance, and paired with the NHT B12D subwoofer, makes for a well-balanced, inexpensive system that sounds unlike the vintage AR speakers in question. 

[Aadams]

2 hours ago, genek said:

The original question specified "devices in today's audio market."

That phrase does appear once in the body of the post.  The other phrase is featured more prominently at the beginning and the end.  The OP can clarify.

[genek]

2 hours ago, Aadams said:

That phrase does appear once in the body of the post.  The other phrase is featured more prominently at the beginning and the end.  The OP can clarify.

They're not mutually exclusive, except in cases where some manufacturer is still offering "non modern" products for sale.