How would you achieve that AR sound modern components?

[Aadams]

On ‎3‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 4:41 PM, onplane said:

At the same time the SVS is rated up to 260Hz, but again looking at the actual graph, 200 is more realistic.

The SVS is a nice unit.  Even though it extends to 260hz It appears the only way you can cross it over above 160hz is to use the LFE circuitry in an AV amp/receiver.   My old 5.1 will cut LFE as high as 200hz and front satellites starting at 200hz down.  I have never seen a stereo amp with this kind of built in capability.   

Adams

[onplane]

On 3/24/2018 at 7:40 PM, Aadams said:

The SVS is a nice unit.  Even though it extends to 260hz It appears the only way you can cross it over above 160hz is to use the LFE circuitry in an AV amp/receiver.   My old 5.1 will cut LFE as high as 200hz and front satellites starting at 200hz down.  I have never seen a stereo amp with this kind of built in capability.   

Adams

Adams, it looks like you are correct that the LFE setting is the only way to cross the SVS sealed sub above 160Hz.  That is, the actual crossing must be done outside the sub. AVR is one way to do this, but so is an external electronic xover.  

In both cases, IF YOU CROSS THIS HIGH, you must also make certain that you limit these frequencies from the bookshelf (i.e. the other speaker in the stack).  With the NHT unit I choose, I suspect crossing at 100 to 120Hz would be ideal.  That is, assuming the NHT bookshelf does a decent job in the 100 to 200Hz range. Now bear in mind, it is "rated" down to 85Hz.

 

Regards,

Jerry

 

[Aadams]

With the NHT unit I choose, I suspect crossing at 100 to 120Hz would be ideal.  That is, assuming the NHT bookshelf does a decent job in the 100 to 200Hz range. Now bear in mind, it is "rated" down to 85Hz.

 

I have no experience with current sealed 4.5” speakers and it may be that NHT can do what others cannot but, on the chance they are normal, here is what I have discovered in trying to do the same thing around a year ago with powered subs and satellites.

If our target is the sound of an AR12” full range speaker, then keep in mind we are asking a 4.5” speaker to produce music below 200hz with same expectation of performance as a 12” AR woofer.  The AR 12” was never crossed lower than 200hz by AR.  Even in their premium 4 way systems the woofers were crossed at 200hz when they could have let the 8” speaker cover the entire human voice range to around 100hz. 

If a pair of NHT 4.5” can sound like a pair of AR 12” between 200hz and 85 hz then I am on board.  My experience however has been a 5.25” cannot sound like AR 12” in the mid bass range except for things like solo viola, violin, human voice and acoustic guitar.  I recall you having AR3s and TSW910s so I feel certain the music to which you listen is not that limited.  

Whatever satellite you choose, can be compared to your AR woofers in the 85-200hz range by choosing a recording appropriate for the purpose, before you go deeper into the project.

YMMV but this is what I have discovered in a similar effort.

If you want to mimic the AR sound for “eyes closed listening”, using a powered sub:

-The easiest and simplest place to crossover is just above the 3db down point of a proven full range satellite that has roughly the equivalent of a 10” bass unit.

-The next good place is 200hz or above;

-The middle ground between 70hz and 200hz is a difficult area and offers a lot of frustration and ittle chance for happiness that could be as easily and more satisfactorily achieved at 200hz or above;

-If you cross very low, you get max freedom in sub placement but;

-Because this is a music system, if you cross above 100hz and especially above 160hz, you must keep the satellites very close and perhaps vertically aligned with the subs or you will get some unwanted special effects from the music.

If this were an AV surround system a lot this wouldn’t matter for my purposes but for “eyes closed listening” it does.

Edit: I forgot to add, to finish the job you will almost certainly need an equalizer.

Aadams

[Aadams]

We are still on topic.

Does  anyone here have experience with this box?  Is it good for the application under discussion?

[ligs]

On 3/26/2018 at 7:04 PM, Aadams said:

With the NHT unit I choose, I suspect crossing at 100 to 120Hz would be ideal.  That is, assuming the NHT bookshelf does a decent job in the 100 to 200Hz range. Now bear in mind, it is "rated" down to 85Hz.

 

I have no experience with current sealed 6” speakers and it may be that NHT can do what others cannot but, on the chance they are normal, here is what I have discovered in trying to do the same thing around a year ago with powered subs and satellites.

If our target is the sound of an AR12” full range speaker, then keep in mind we are asking a 6” speaker to produce music below 200hz with same expectation of performance as a 12” AR woofer.  The AR 12” was never crossed lower than 200hz by AR.  Even in their premium 4 way systems the woofers were crossed at 200hz when they could have let the 8” speaker cover the entire human voice range to around 100hz. 

If a pair of NHT 6” can sound like a pair of AR 12” between 200hz and 85 hz then I am on board.  My experience however has been a 6” cannot sound like AR 12” in the mid bass range except for things like solo viola, violin, human voice and acoustic guitar.  I recall you having AR3s and TSW910s so I feel certain the music to which you listen is not that limited.  

Whatever 6” satellite you choose, can be compared to your AR woofers in the 85-200hz range by choosing a recording appropriate for the purpose, before you go deeper into the project.

YMMV but this is what I have discovered in a similar effort.

If you want to mimic the AR sound for “eyes closed listening”, using a powered sub:

-The easiest and simplest place to crossover is just above the 3db down point of a proven full range satellite that has roughly the equivalent of a 10” bass unit.

-The next good place is 200hz or above;

-The middle ground between 70hz and 200hz is a difficult area and offers a lot of frustration and ittle chance for happiness that could be as easily and more satisfactorily achieved at 200hz or above;

-If you cross very low, you get max freedom in sub placement but;

-Because this is a music system, if you cross above 100hz and especially above 160hz, you must keep the satellites very close and perhaps vertically aligned with the subs or you will get some unwanted special effects from the music.

If this were an AV surround system a lot this wouldn’t matter for my purposes but for “eyes closed listening” it does.

Edit: I forgot to add, to finish the job you will almost certainly need an equalizer.

Aadams

Since you mentioned NHT and 6" midbass, I remember NTH 3.3 using a cast frame long throw 12" sealed woofer and a 6" sealed midbass and crossover at 100 hz.  Whether NHT 3.3 sounds like AR is not the question but it is a very capable speaker and is said to have more defined midbass!

[Aadams]

41 minutes ago, ligs said:

Since you mentioned NHT and 6" midbass, I remember NTH 3.3 using a cast frame long throw 12" sealed woofer and a 6" sealed midbass and crossover at 100 hz.  Whether NHT 3.3 sounds like AR is not the question but it is a very capable speaker and is said to have more defined midbass!

Yes you are correct and make a good point.  I should have been more careful.  The OP is wanting to use 4.5" not 6".   I think there are several full range speakers that have used 6" low mids including DCM Timewindows which used dual 6.5" angled 20 degrees apart.

Adams

[genek]

On 3/26/2018 at 1:46 PM, onplane said:

Adams, it looks like you are correct that the LFE setting is the only way to cross the SVS sealed sub above 160Hz.  That is, the actual crossing must be done outside the sub. AVR is one way to do this, but so is an external electronic xover.  

I don't see a setting on the SVS that bypasses its built-in low pass filter. So even if your preamp can send signals above 160Hz to it, it's still going to cut them off.

I had a conversation about 10 years back with one of the designers of my preamp (Sherwood Newcastle 5.1). His recommendation for subwoofer usage if music was the primary consideration rather than home theater was to use two subwoofers and to not use the LFE channel, which for my model meant setting the LF and RF speakers as "large" and connecting the subwoofers to the LF and RF outputs rather than the subwoofer pre outs.

The reason for this, he explained, is that when you use a HT amp's LFE, the lows from left and right are mixed together to produce a single LF channel, even if you have connections for L and R subwoofers. By not using the LFE, the preamp sends discrete L and R to the subwoofers, and the subwoofers' low pass filters rather than the preamp determine the rolloff points. 

[Aadams]

Which, for the SVS, is never going to be lower than 160Hz.

I am assuming you meant "higher".

55 minutes ago, genek said:

I don't see a setting on the SVS that bypasses its built-in low pass filter. So even if your preamp can send signals above 160Hz to it, it's still going to cut them off.

Same here so I chatted with SVS today and the crossover is disabled when the knob is turned to the LFE position.  Set in this way the unit will respond up to its limit. But, as you point out, there are problems with using the AVR low cut filters even if LFE is turned off.  They can only be used through the sub pre-outs.

I was hoping a modern AV receiver could be an all in one solution but even the new premium AVRs have two mono sub outs.  You can turn the LFE off but the sub pre outs are still mono.  I first began to smell this yesterday when reading the SVS SB 1000 manual which states that for stereo application the left and right sub units should be connected to the left and right  front speaker line pre-outs or high level speaker terminals.  When connected in this way, you lose the ability to independently high cut your front speakers so, SVS supplies a fixed 80hz high cut filter if you use the line inputs but you must wire back into the amplifier line in jacks, which AVRs never have.  My conclusion is unless you are using full range speakers and using a sub strictly to extend the low bass an AVR is not a single box solution. 

To avoid thread creep, we should keep in mind a configuration goal is to emulate or mimic the sound of a 12” AR, including the power response, using small satellites.

Something else.  2 Crown XLS 1002 amps now cost $500 and can crossover as well as high and low cut.  My point is, an amp is an amp whether it is in the speaker or outside.  Is there a compact passive sub-woofer that is suitable?  I can’t find one except inside an AR speaker system.

Adams

[genek]

30 minutes ago, Aadams said:

My conclusion is unless you are using full range speakers and using a sub strictly to extend the low bass an AVR is not a single box solution. 

This is pretty much the way subwoofers used to work in the olden days before home theater, and if the goal is to make the new speaker stack sound more like a "classic" bookshelf or floor standing AR, it's probably still the way you want to go. The AVR's subwoofer out would just not be used at all.

And if the LFE setting on the SVS is the bypass for its low pass, then you'd need an external crossover.

[onplane]

29 minutes ago, genek said:

This is pretty much the way subwoofers used to work in the olden days before home theater, and if the goal is to make the new speaker stack sound more like a "classic" bookshelf or floor standing AR, it's probably still the way you want to go. The AVR's subwoofer out would just not be used at all.

And if the LFE setting on the SVS is the bypass for its low pass, then you'd need an external crossover.

Gene, your point about AVR LFE output being a summed signal is on the mark. It would be of no value with two subs where we wish to maintain imaging.  I did mention in my post above about an external xover, but that would NOT be my goal. 

I just wish NHT published the frequency response graphs of their units. I suspect that 4.5 inch NHT unit begins to roll off somewhere in the 150Hz to 100Hz range.  This natural roll off could be complemented quite well by the sub.

As for the low pass defeat, SVS is not the only manufacturer that provides for a complete by-pass.  The idea is to let systems like Audseey take complete control of satellites and sub.

Regards,

Jerry 

[genek]

1 hour ago, onplane said:

Gene, your point about AVR LFE output being a summed signal is on the mark. It would be of no value with two subs where we wish to maintain imaging.  I did mention in my post above about an external xover, but that would NOT be my goal. 

In the absence of that external crossover, you'd need to line up a subwoofer whose low pass filter can be set in the 200-600Hz range if you're of the opinion that those frequencies coming from a 6" woofer aren't going to be comparable to them coming from a 12" woofer. I have spent virtually no time listening to satellite/subwoofer combos, so I have no opinion on that one way or the other.

[Aadams]

We have arrived at the same point where I stopped a year ago in my search for a powered sub solution using small satellites.  There still is no way to do this without an external crossover, that is, if you want to control the low and high cut frequency settings, which IMO you must do for the cleanest stereo sound.  Using the natural roll-off of full range speakers that can effortlessly reach 50hz or below to merge a sub-woofer for deep bass is different than trusting the natural roll-off of small speaker units, which if they were used as elements in a full range unit, would be steeply cut by a crossover.  I still use, daily, a kluge system of small satellites that is not easily duplicated but it exceeded my expectations. I know small satellites can be used to create very musical, high dynamic systems but using powered subs is still not simple and involves too much experimentation and speculative expense.  I would like something at a reasonable cost that is out of the box repeatable that my daughter could set up any time I choose to spend the money.  

Jerry,

SVS offers a 45 day money back trial and I think Crutchfield offers a 60 day trial. You could purchase the NHTs and find that your hunch is correct or if not, scuttle the project without much expense.

Adams

[genek]

Of course, this begs the question of whether today's subwoofers are even capable of producing decent output outside their normal HT ranges. There may be a good reason why their low pass settings all seem to top out at 200Hz or under.

[ligs]

Here is an article about converting a good 2-way speaker into a 3-way full range speaker by adding a woofer and a passive crossover between the woofer and the 2-way speaker. This is a DIY approach. 

https://app.box.com/s/a4bqr447s7ox7v9kt7r9tjui0h7yqkrv

 

Here is another one for DIY.

https://audionostalgia.co.uk/rogers-ab1-diy-project/#&gid=psgal_43_11&pid=1

[Aadams]

2 hours ago, ligs said:

Here is another one for DIY.

I have done a variation of both approaches using the AR58. It works well and I still use it but it is a kluge and not easily repeatable. I also don’t want to build anything from scratch or buy any new tools. If we keep drifting in this direction this thread will be transported into mods and tweaks and not get as many eyeballs which will harm chances of an actual solution in the line we are looking. IMO

[Aadams]

I have found a solution if one is willing to use a separate preamp and power amp.  QSC does not appear do this but a Crown XLS will do it.  The signal passes unfiltered to the XLS where it is passed on as an unfiltered low level output through link/out jacks to the powered subwoofer low level inputs.  This allows you to use the sub-woofer variable crossover but also lets you set up a high cut filter in the Crown amp between 30 and 3khz in 1/12 octave increments to control the satellites through the amp's high level speaker outputs.   

The amp is spec’d at 2 ohms 550watts so no trouble driving multiple satellites.  This is tidy, repeatable and cost effective if you already have a preamp.  The 2 sub woofers are by far the single most expensive piece of the setup.

 

Adams

[Aadams]

 

I decided to eat my own dog food.  I used two DSP amps to bi-amp and crossover a pair of AR12 inch woofers with two stacks of satellites.  The work was finished today, and it exceeds expectations which were high.  The high and low cut frequency is 200hz.  This is easy, repeatable and less expensive than equally capable powered subs, you just need an AR12” to isolate and use as a satellite stand.

Pictures and more description in this thread near the bottom of page one.

Adams

[Pete B]

Almost forgot to mention the NHT 3.3 and EQ it to get the AR sound:

https://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/1293nht/index.html

Or try to like it as is.

[Pete B]

Or, probably more affordable the NHT Classic 3 as the top end, and one AR-11 woofer only as bass,

per side for the usual AR, or two per side for AR-9 type performance.  And you get a dome UMD!

Edit:  Add EQ as required to get that vintage AR sound, you can assume this for just about anything

that I post in this thread.

[Aadams]

There has been a lot of talk in this thread.  Has anyone actually done anything with new speakers to achieve the "AR sound"?  I get the feeling this board is mostly geezers, to whom this is not problem, because the expected life of working ARs at this point is longer than that of the owner.

Adams

[onplane]

4 hours ago, Aadams said:

There has been a lot of talk in this thread.  Has anyone actually done anything with new speakers to achieve the "AR sound"?  I get the feeling this board is mostly geezers, to whom this is not problem, because the expected life of working ARs at this point is longer than that of the owner.

Adams

Adams, you just might be right about that. 

Another possibility is that board members rather than seeking high performance speaker systems, are spending big $'s on high performance hearing aids.

 

Regards,

Jerry

'

[genek]

Everything I've seen in this discussion leads me to conclude that it would cost a lot more to buy new speakers and try to get classic AR sound out of them than it would to buy classic ARs and restore them, even if you had to pay someone to do the work for you. 

[Aadams]

2 minutes ago, genek said:

Everything I've seen in this discussion leads me to conclude that it would cost a lot more to buy new speakers and try to get classic AR sound out of them than it would to buy classic ARs and restore them, even if you had to pay someone to do the work for you. 

What equipment is required?  Must we use  powered subs?  Must everything be new?  What is the budget IYO?

 

[genek]

No idea. But it seems as if everything suggested here so far is based on powered subs (is anybody still making passive subs?) paired either with satellites or smallish sized bookshelf speakers. 

 

[Aadams]

2 hours ago, genek said:

No idea. But it seems as if everything suggested here so far is based on powered subs (is anybody still making passive subs?) paired either with satellites or smallish sized bookshelf speakers. 

 

Passive subs are still available new and among the used choices the best, and perhaps least expensive for music, are old AR 12" speakers.