new room.......

[frankmarsi]

Dear members. I'm relocating in a number of weeks and I need some input about the new listening room, see attached file. The room is 25 X 12 feet in dimension and has 8-foot ceilings. The floors are covered in thick wall-to-wall carpeting. The window shown in the rough sketch is huge and one of my biggest concerns. I intend to help it along acoustically by covering it with a set of curtains, so that might help, any opinions about that are welcomed. Another consideration is the rugged floor. I wondering how the rug might cut into the speaker sound in a bad way or possibly assist the situation? I have to ask because all of my life I’ve listening to AR speakers on bare solid oak wood floors. I don’t want to listen to a ‘dead’ sound from my speakers, so if I have to, I’ll tear out the rug, which itself could take days further postponing the actual set-up of my system. I will have the stacked AR-LST mounted on double steel stands, which I’m sure I’ll have to use with spikes on the rug, any suggestions for cheap spikes from anyone, they’ll have to support the weight of stacked speakers. Regarding the stands; I have the choice of using 16-inch heights and 21-inch heights, I’ll have to choose which sounds, looks, and performs better though. Any thoughts regarding stand height on rugged floors? Also notice in the lower left of the diagram, there is a large passageway into another room; I’m wondering how that will affect the sound also. Then there’s the purchase consideration of acoustic panels or bass-traps in strategic locations to quell any bad reflections. These panels cost crazy amounts of money and I really don’t feel like constructing them on my own but, will if I have to, so any suggestions are helpful here also. I’m only asking these questions because these speakers are definitely not easy to move around, much less on ‘spiked’ stands on a rug, trying this position or that position, so some fore thought is helpful. I struggled last week moving just two out of the six LSTs and although I devised a wonderfully safe method of placing each speaker on a standard wood dolly and strapping it down with two ‘come-a-long straps’, the lifting and at times carrying these awkward shaped speakers is quite strenuous while being as out of shape as I’ve become. So, any suggestions about my new adventure? Don’t get me wrong, after years and years of playing with speakers, I’m going to do what I feel is necessary in any event but, I thought I’d throw this out for discussion.

FM

P.S. Please see attached diagram of room.

 

[HarryM]

I couldn't get the picture to show but regardless it will come down to your on preference. I am set up in an irregular shaped room, my speakers are spaced about 10ft apart and my listening spot is about 20ft away. I have full carpeting between me and the speakers which I prefer because bounce and echo drive me crazy. The rest of the room would be more dead then live.

Over Christmas I had set up my AR-11's and 91's in a larger very live room. I had to turn the speaker towards the walls to stop some of the bounce. Took me almost 2 hours to set it up so it didn't drive my ears crazy.

[ar_pro]

Based upon the description of your previous listening space, this one could sound "more dead", but only because your previous room was so "live".

If you're able to make changes after you've moved in, maybe listening to your system in its new environment "as-is" for awhile would be the way to go, and then make any adjustments once you've gotten more accustomed to the sound of your new room.

[frankmarsi]

Based upon the description of your previous listening space, this one could sound "more dead", but only because your previous room was so "live".

If you're able to make changes after you've moved in, maybe listening to your system in its new environment "as-is" for awhile would be the way to go, and then make any adjustments once you've gotten more accustomed to the sound of your new room.

Thanks ar_pro, good advice. I was wondering about any particulars as a pretense before setting it all up, like I said these beasts are not a joy to move. It's not like: ' oh, just a little toe-in here and there' , with 200lbs a side and with spikes dug deeply into a rug and wood floors beneath. Cable cutting lengths and good stuff like that that maybe at risk of waste. The window was the other major concern of mine.

I thought of jerry-rigging some sort of double dolly configuration with the speakers on the stands, but that might be nuts? Trust me moving these speakers is precarious and dangerous at best as I'm doing all of the moving of the speakers and furniture in the room.

Then there's the acoustics of the room and the consideration of 'traps' and absorbing panels and such. I was wondering if anyone here has advice in those areas?

Ultimately, I'd like to tear out the rug and use a number of smaller area rugs on the oak wood floor below the rugs.

fm

[genek]

I don't know about curtains on that window. If they're too absorbing they'll make the window deader than the wall.

[frankmarsi]

I don't know about curtains on that window. If they're too absorbing they'll make the window deader than the wall.

1-5-13

Hi Gene, you’ve brought up another good consideration. But, I have to admit the only thing that I see about the big window at 9 feet long is a ton of unwanted reflections on one side, off balance from the opposite sheet rock wall.

I located a company that specializes in 'acoustic-curtains' but, I feel some low to mid priced every day sort of affair might be best, or even a light diffusing semi transparent type might be good too.

Although the house is surrounded by trees and the like, I really don't want anyone to see what I have in the house for a stereo system. And although the house is thoroughly alarmed and securely built, I feel it's best to think that 'out of sight, is out of mind' to most.

The walls are typical sheet rock and flat paint. Other furnishings may assist but, that window is gonna be problematic I imagine. I wondering if a crown-moulding would help too?

Those years old ceiling corner triangular pillows are a consideration along with either round or rectangular 'bass-traps', or 2X40X24 inch wall deadening panels spread about the walls. Those are fairly easy to make on my own, but being so anxious to listen, I want immediate results. I better prepare for semi-rural living and slow my mind down, I guess?

If all goes well, this may be the last place I'll inhabit so, I want things correct from here on out. Then, within time I can play and listen to my heart is content.

My 2500 vinyl record collection may certainly afford some absorption, but with that many vinyl records, I’ll have to spread them in different places around the room and categorize them too. That in of itself is going to be a nightmare or better yet a pleasure.

I’m thinking of four smaller 2X Ikea ‘Expedits’ on their 8 inch metal feet along the front wall to have equipment on and in along with records on the bottom shelves as mass to isolate the turntables as I have presently. The shear weight of all that vinyl I’ve learned really helps out with rumble and such. Not that I have that problem anylonger, but I noticed a slight bit of rumble as I was removing records from the bottom shelves as the turntables were on the top shelves.

The other major consideration is placing the LSTs as shown in my diagram. I'm fearing I may have to place the speakers against the front wall as recommended by many, or as I would like is to have them one third out from the front wall. Lastly, that rug is bothering my mind until I make a preliminary set-up as a trial. If it has to be removed, it's gonna take me out of the projected set-up date which is already a few weeks away. I've pulled rugs up before and in a room of this size working alone will take a least two days or more with the padding and nails and hold-down wood stripping. Moving the in place furniture is also a time consuming and back breaking chore along with moving those beastie LSTs. Damn, I'm starting to get tired already.

If you have any other insights, please let me know.

Well, here’s to new beginnings and happy listening in the new year!

Best Regards,

FM

[HarryM]

I'll trade you 2 pairs of 4x's for the LST's. The 4x's will be much easier for you to move around. Just trying to make this as easy as possible for you. LOL

[frankmarsi]

REALLY, REALLY? Go ahead, take one more shot at me, why don't cha!

No, seriously folks, those babies are going with me in the hole, have you read my older posts. It even states so in my last will and bragging rights.

If you're close by and have experience pulling up heavy rugs and padding, I'll pay you a day rate and lunch.

Wanna hang some curtains? Oh, too sissy-mary for ya huh?

As a bonus, upon all well completed tasks, you'll be invited to have a listen to what I plan as being my best system ever. But take note, I choose the records we listen to, you listen, I play. Get it? We may go one hour, we may go 3 or more, depends on my head-space.

Example of the last few years anticipation:

The piling up of: interconnects, cartridges, turntables, cartridge shells, a denon sut, tweeters, records, 10 inch tapes, more records, fm tuner, 12 inch 45 rpm records, and many other toys that have been in the staging/waiting area of my present already cluttered home.

This stuff has been on hold since I've decided to get out of NY as I didn't want to change anything until I relocated, which as I think of it now, may have been a mistake.

Oh here! Can you operate a VPI RCM well? I could always use a good record washer, it's kinda like needing a dish washer, so it won't pay much. But, beware, when I clean 20 to 40 records in a day, I do a meticulous job with new sleeves and outer sleeves always included. After the first listen of each new clean disc, notes on 'post-it' paper are placed on each jacket.

How about setting up a couple of tables I haven't tried yet. I mean doing the cartridge alignment thing, vta, sra, vtf, azimuth, are ya good at that? Wait, I'll do that, it's great fun if you're a cartridge/tone arm phobe like myself. Oh, there’s the Black-Widow tone arm I never got to rewire, do that for me.

O.K. I'm tired from just thinking about this stuff. Better call my mamma! Or Roy, or somebody close by. In the distance, I hear dynaco_dan calling me. There's another one! He has somehow mentally forced me to continually buy FNM2 fuses whenever I see a cheap price. He's to blame for making me think it's hard to refuse a good fuse! He does those things, I'll tell ya!

Alrighty, last option for you. Do you have a good size pick-up truck to haul away the rug bolts that I carefully cut to 36 inch as required here and wrap in plastic tape only, and take them to the dump, no?

Talk about trades, I'm starting to feel I may have to dump two pairs of AR-2ax at the right offer. Surfing the web for stuff and sales every once in a while on the auction site you get a guy who says he's relocating or has too much stuff, well damn, I've become that guy too.

Good to be back on this site. But I warn you, unless I get this stuff rolling real soon, I’ll be rolling rug, moving furniture and lying flat on the floor to sooth my aching back, and you guys will wonder what happened to that other guy, me!

fm

[HarryM]

If I had a passport to cross the border I'd bring both my trucks and a helper for 2 pair of 2ax's. I think it would be worth the trip and helping you set it up just to hear your best system ever.

Where are you going to be located after the move.

[xpat]

I have a room almost the same size as yours. The equipment rack, and my ar9 speakers are in similar postions. The room is carpeted and the walls are paneled. I originally felt the room sounded too bright. I did a slap echo test walking around the room listening for echos. I had a couple bad spots and hung 24 inch square foam acoustic tiles. The sound was toned down and the sound stage definitely improved. You may be able to do something similar on the wall opposite the window. Good luck.

[frankmarsi]

1-25-13

After much time spent setting up three out of four expedit,Ikea 2x2 shelves which will be used along side one another (one set was damaged in package), I decided to hook up one set of LSTs with micro-statics on top and a PL-400 along with a C-4000 pre-amp, SAE-1800 equalizer, an AT-150MLX cart. on an original mk.1 SL-1200, (no SME arm this time) and fa-shit junk cables, along with junky speaker wires.

After much fiddling to get the old second-system going after much disuse, it all wonderfully sounded like shit. No doubt, just plain flat, un-exciting plano-flat, limited of my interest by any stretch, weak highs, only OK mids, and they were only almost OK mids., along with mostly non-definable weak bass, just not LST 'BIG-BASS!

Set-up just like my diagram above, it all was so damn. disappointing to hear. Mind you, I now feeling I should rethink everything and place the speakers against the front wall and move the equipment to the side wall? None of this can happen until I move around heavier and 'in-my-way' furniture and that'll take more than just me.

After a mis-spent one and one half late evenings, I dumbly realized I had the equalizer cables in reverse position. Corrected that, and then realized maybe I am and certainly can be more stupid than humanly possible. To admit to how distracted I've been for some time now, that lame cable error was almost of Biblical proportions!

O.K. nothing I haven't admitted to before, sadly but, as Gloria Gaynor said, "I will survive".

O.K., for my own sort of starter listening tests, using one of many VPI cleaned, .89 cents vinyl LPs as they were sounding close to my dysfunctional listening room of 12 years, back at the old digs, and this was a good thing at this point.

At the end of the third nite, most was almost O.K., but still it seemed as if the rug was almost soaking up watts/power? I was also realizing that AR-LSTs really require a bigger room to sound their best, this room being 12X26 or so. I recalled how back in 1979 my AR-3a's sounded absolutely great in my first Manhattan shooting area of 22X35 feet,(actual 35X50 space) gee, that was really big sounding. Though this nite, I knew the LSTs should be sounding bigger and they weren't offering up any confirmation of that 'big' sound. Again, realizing the LSTs are not near-field speakers and other furniture constraints were perhaps to blame?

Then I realized after about 2-3 hrs. of listening that maybe the LSTs were sounding correct and I was expecting the old bad-room similarities? Questioning myself if I wanted it to sound just like the former sonicly challenged room? It appears that I'll have to get used to the new room's acoustics, and play with the 1800 more, and do so more open-mindedly.

I can only go this far as I'm moving small loads of treasured vintage stuff each time I go and can only hear a few pieces of equipment at a time.

I do have a strong feeling that once the stacked LSTs are set-up, the world will seem different? Up dates will follow, you know it.

fm

P.S. This was solely a preliminary set-up, junk in back along with old Magnavox console in back will be removed prior to actually real set-up testing.

Also, left side speaker must be moved 3-4 feet to the left when actually set-up properly.

When I realistically think of what was done here; it wasn't actually the fairest or smartest set-up to be able to listen to, I was just so anxious to hear some of anything I had on hand.

 

[HarryM]

It will all come together Frank, you just have to give it a chance.

[RoyC]

Hey Frank,

I think you are missing your bare wood floor. I'm sure this room with the rug is not as lively. Placing the speakers back against the wall, as you are contemplating, should improve things for you.

Roy