My AR-5 photos and question

[Craig25]

Here a few photos of a pair of AR-5's I recently purchased. I had to open them up to seal up a couple of gaps in the surround and discovered that the woofers were of different design. Are these both AR-5 woofers just from different years? Also the mid and high pots seem to be connected together when I adjust the knobs. Does it look like I've got a pair of Frankenstein crossovers? I'm not knowledgeable enough to know exactly what I'm looking at here. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Craig

[Craig25]

Here a few photos of a pair of AR-5's I recently purchased. I had to open them up to seal up a couple of gaps in the surround and discovered that the woofers were of different design. Are these both AR-5 woofers just from different years? Also the mid and high pots seem to be connected together when I adjust the knobs. Does it look like I've got a pair of Frankenstein crossovers? I'm not knowledgeable enough to know exactly what I'm looking at here. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Craig

The photos were way too large-sorry. I'll reduce them and get them back on shortly..Craig

[Craig25]

Okay, let's see if these photos are guicker to load. Craig

[speaker dave]

Here a few photos of a pair of AR-5's I recently purchased. I had to open them up to seal up a couple of gaps in the surround and discovered that the woofers were of different design. Are these both AR-5 woofers just from different years?

Thanks, Craig

Hi Craig,

I have a pair of AR2ax with similarly unmatched woofers. Those are both genuine AR woofers (the screen over the chassis openings and the cardboard taped over the alnico magnet structure are familiar details.

Your serial numbers are probably not consecutive, just close. That was the case with my pair. It just happens that they stradle the transition from alnico to ferrite. They should still be a good match as far as I know.

I believe that ARs were not sold as matched pairs or consecutive serial numbers, the dealers would probably just grab a random pair with the same wood finish, so such pairings happened.

Nice speakers,

David

[RoyC]

Here a few photos of a pair of AR-5's I recently purchased. I had to open them up to seal up a couple of gaps in the surround and discovered that the woofers were of different design. Are these both AR-5 woofers just from different years? Also the mid and high pots seem to be connected together when I adjust the knobs. Does it look like I've got a pair of Frankenstein crossovers? I'm not knowledgeable enough to know exactly what I'm looking at here. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Craig

Hi Craig,

Your speakers have had "work" done to them:

-The original caps and associated wiring have been replaced,

-The pots/level controls have been replaced by modern style l-pads, which do not appear to be properly wired.

-The original fiberglass cabinet damping material has been replaced with poly fill.

-As Dave mentioned above, one woofer (likely original) has an alnico magnet, while the other woofer, which I suspect is a later AR replacement, has a ferrite magnet. The response is probably slightly different between the two woofers, as all of the AR-2ax versions I have seen originally equipped with the later, ferrite magnet woofer used a modified, higher impedance mid. I have never seen an AR-5 originally equipped with the ferrite magnet woofer, but anything is possible in AR land, especially as a model neared the end of its production run. To make matters even more confusing, the earliest AR-5s were actually equipped with a different 10 inch woofer than the 2ax.

What are the cabinet serial numbers?

Roy

[Craig25]

The cabinets have the serial numbers, K18008 and K18009. The person I bought them from told me that when he originally got them they had Radio Shack woofers in them. He apparently did a somewhat haphazard "restoration". I'm not sure if he did the crossover or not. He also purchased new front grills from vintageAR. The cloth looks surprisingly similar to the cloth I had on a pair of AR-3a's that I used to own. Aside from a bowing of the masonite towards the middle, I'm satisfied with the look.

Having said that, I'm a big believer in "stock", whether it's cars or speakers. I knew that these speakers had been sort of cobbled together but I was putting faith in that the "sound" would be there. I've been an Advent fan for years and the 3a's and now the 5's are my first experience with AR. When I opened the cabinets on my 3a's I was blown away by the quality of the inner construction and internal bracing of the cabinet. Every inside surface has bracing that extends to, but does not touch the next side. I'm no engineer, but it seems to stiffen but not allow vibration and resonance to transfer. Everything was beefier with the 3a's.

Regarding these 5's, I'll probably keep an eye out for a pair of stock crossovers or see if these can be repaired/redone to original designs. Am I correct that the 5's are actually rarer than the 3a's? I was under the impression that the original prices were relatively close, so perhaps most people just went ahead and paid a little more for the 3a's.

Thanks,

Craig

[RoyC]

The cabinets have the serial numbers, K18008 and K18009. The person I bought them from told me that when he originally got them they had Radio Shack woofers in them. He apparently did a somewhat haphazard "restoration". I'm not sure if he did the crossover or not. He also purchased new front grills from vintageAR. The cloth looks surprisingly similar to the cloth I had on a pair of AR-3a's that I used to own. Aside from a bowing of the masonite towards the middle, I'm satisfied with the look.

Having said that, I'm a big believer in "stock", whether it's cars or speakers. I knew that these speakers had been sort of cobbled together but I was putting faith in that the "sound" would be there. I've been an Advent fan for years and the 3a's and now the 5's are my first experience with AR. When I opened the cabinets on my 3a's I was blown away by the quality of the inner construction and internal bracing of the cabinet. Every inside surface has bracing that extends to, but does not touch the next side. I'm no engineer, but it seems to stiffen but not allow vibration and resonance to transfer. Everything was beefier with the 3a's.

Regarding these 5's, I'll probably keep an eye out for a pair of stock crossovers or see if these can be repaired/redone to original designs. Am I correct that the 5's are actually rarer than the 3a's? I was under the impression that the original prices were relatively close, so perhaps most people just went ahead and paid a little more for the 3a's.

Thanks,

Craig

Craig,

Your serial numbers confirm the ferrite magnet woofer as a later replacement. BTW, it is very unusual to have consecutive serial numbers. That alone would make them desirable to a collector, should you ever decide to sell them.

The AR-5 is quite rare, as most folks opted for the similar 3a, or the less expensive 2ax. A forum search will provide some interesting info, as well as the crossover schematic (in the "Library").

The AR-5 cabinet (the same one used for the 2ax) is not built like the classy, braced 3a cabinet. With the exception of the very deepest bass response, however, it is sonically similar to the 3a. In fact, some AR fans argue that the 5 has a more balanced tonal character, with a preferable midrange response to that of the 3a. In any case, they are keepers, and well worth the effort to restore.

Your crossovers can be restored relatively easily. The only parts that actually appear to be missing are the replaced capacitors, a replaced resistor, and the original level controls. The caps and level controls often require replacement anyway. Send me a PM if you need assistance with the wiring. I'll be working on a pair of 5's next week, and can send you some photos. The AR-3a restoration guide http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Boar...?showtopic=4095 can also be of assistance. The AR-5 crossover layout is very similar to that of the 3a, and the AR-5's tweeter and midrange are simply higher impedance versions of the corresponding 3a drivers.

Roy

[RoyC]

The cabinets have the serial numbers, K18008 and K18009. The person I bought them from told me that when he originally got them they had Radio Shack woofers in them.

Craig

Craig,

I overlooked the fact that neither of your woofers are original to those cabinets. I should have stated above that the replacement with the alnico magnet would have been the type originally installed in AR-5's with those serial numbers.

Roy

[JKent]

Craig,

You're in luck. Roy has been a tremendous help to me and many others here. He'll help you do the restoration RIGHT.

Here is Carl's AR-5 schematic:

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/library...5_schematic.pdf

There's nothing wrong with L-Pads, and Roy will tell you how to add a resistor to make them sound like the original pots. If you should decide you want to go with pots, I have some heavy duty ones:

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Boar...?showtopic=5549

Good luck with those nice speakers

Kent

[kkantor]

Craig,

Your serial numbers confirm the ferrite magnet woofer as a later replacement. BTW, it is very unusual to have consecutive serial numbers. That alone would make them desirable to a collector, should you ever decide to sell them.

The AR-5 is quite rare, as most folks opted for the similar 3a, or the less expensive 2ax. A forum search will provide some interesting info, as well as the crossover schematic (in the "Library").

The AR-5 cabinet (the same one used for the 2ax) is not built like the classy, braced 3a cabinet. With the exception of the very deepest bass response, however, it is sonically similar to the 3a. In fact, some AR fans argue that the 5 has a more balanced tonal character, with a preferable midrange response to that of the 3a. In any case, they are keepers, and well worth the effort to restore.

Your crossovers can be restored relatively easily. The only parts that actually appear to be missing are the replaced capacitors, a replaced resistor, and the original level controls. The caps and level controls often require replacement anyway. Send me a PM if you need assistance with the wiring. I'll be working on a pair of 5's next week, and can send you some photos. The AR-3a restoration guide http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Boar...?showtopic=4095 can also be of assistance. The AR-5 crossover layout is very similar to that of the 3a, and the AR-5's tweeter and midrange are simply higher impedance versions of the corresponding 3a drivers.

Roy

Surprised to learn, (but not disputing), that the 5 is relatively rare. Sometime around 1975, I was recruited to go speaker shopping with a non-techie musician friend. He was a composer, and had just received a grant. (This money was not going to be wasted on silly things like food and shelter...) We wound up liking and buying the 5's over all else in the relatively large store. And, not with the salesperson's endorsement, either! I think is was K&L, if anyone remembers them.

-k

[RoyC]

Surprised to learn, (but not disputing), that the 5 is relatively rare. Sometime around 1975, I was recruited to go speaker shopping with a non-techie musician friend. He was a composer, and had just received a grant. (This money was not going to be wasted on silly things like food and shelter...) We wound up liking and buying the 5's over all else in the relatively large store. And, not with the salesperson's endorsement, either! I think is was K&L, if anyone remembers them.

-k

Hi Ken,

Tom T. probably has the sales numbers. I just recall his comments about the 5 being a relatively overlooked gem, being stuck between the 3a and 2ax. From time to time I've speculated that AR-5 components transplanted into 3a cabinets would result in my "favorite" AR speaker of that era. :-)

Roy

[tysontom]

Hi Ken,

Tom T. probably has the sales numbers. I just recall his comments about the 5 being a relatively overlooked gem, being stuck between the 3a and 2ax. From time to time I've speculated that AR-5 components transplanted into 3a cabinets would result in my "favorite" AR speaker of that era. :-)

Roy

I think that AR made an average of about 500-600 AR-5s per-month during the period from late-1968, early 1969 (around the time of full production on the AR-5) until at least the end of 1972. Based on the documentation I have, serial numbers from the December 1972 AR-5s are in the 27,400-range; therefore, the K18008 and K18009 (Craig's AR-5s) would likely have been manufactured sometime in the middle of 1971. The AR-5s were discontinued around 1975-1976, and serial numbers likely got up into the mid-30k range -- I don't think much higher. More than twice as many AR-3as were sold in a similar period. There were probably eight -times more AR-2axs produced as the AR-5, so in relative terms the AR-5 was somewhat rare.

The first 10-inch woofer for the AR-5 used a very compliant special cone and the first urethane-polymer foam surround used on an AR speaker (and perhaps the first in the industry); subsequently, the AR-5 adopted the "standard" 10-inch stamped-basket woofer used in the 1970-and later AR-2ax. Both of these woofers used a Alnico "slug" magnet -- the magnet is actually the pole piece in that woofer -- and this was continued until around the time AR moved to Norwood in 1973. A new ferrite magnet was begun in the 1972-1973 time-frame, and this woofer replaced the earlier Alnico version. There are very slight sensitivity differences between the ferrite and Alnico woofer versions, but otherwise the woofers are nearly identical.

The part numbers for the AR-5/LST-2 and the AR-2ax woofers had a different suffix number reflecting the early cone variations, but later on the woofer was considered "universal."

--Tom Tyson

Image: First AR-5 woofer

[genek]

Tom T. probably has the sales numbers. I just recall his comments about the 5 being a relatively overlooked gem, being stuck between the 3a and 2ax. From time to time I've speculated that AR-5 components transplanted into 3a cabinets would result in my "favorite" AR speaker of that era. :-)

From Roy Allison's Stereophile interview: "All the speakers, with the exception of the AR-5, were phenomenally successful."

I still have the brochures from my 1975 AR-2ax purchase, and the notes I jotted down on one of them include the discounted pricing:

AR-3a $205 ($295 list)

AR-5 $170 ($215 list)

AR-2ax $115 ($165 list)

As you can see, the 5 street-priced much closer to the 3a than the 2ax. AR tried to market the 5 as a 3a for people whose needs didn't require or support a 12" woofer, but buyers perceived it as a 2ax with a dome midrange that sold for almost as much as a 3a (I know I did at the time). I bought 2ax's because I was a new college grad with a tight budget (I figured that eventually I would upgrade to the 3a or its replacement when the 2ax's wore out), but if I had had more to spend, or any idea that I'd still have my 1975 AR speakers 35 years and 5 increasingly larger homes later, I would still have skipped over the 5 and sprung for the 3a.

[Steve F]

Surprised to learn, (but not disputing), that the 5 is relatively rare. Sometime around 1975, I was recruited to go speaker shopping with a non-techie musician friend. He was a composer, and had just received a grant. (This money was not going to be wasted on silly things like food and shelter...) We wound up liking and buying the 5's over all else in the relatively large store. And, not with the salesperson's endorsement, either! I think is was K&L, if anyone remembers them.

-k

k-

K&L was in Watertown, right? I remember them well. A friend of mine--in an obvious moment of weakness--dragged me there to accompany him as he bought ESS-9's (not Heils; these were 12" 3-ways, cone M-T) to replace his 5's.

He returned to sanity within months, with 3a's.

Steve F.

[Craig25]

I just want to thank everyone who responded to my original post. This is a very giving community of enthusiasts!

I'll post updates on the progress of my AR-5 restoration as I am able. Craig

[kkantor]

k-

K&L was in Watertown, right? I remember them well. A friend of mine--in an obvious moment of weakness--dragged me there to accompany him as he bought ESS-9's (not Heils; these were 12" 3-ways, cone M-T) to replace his 5's.

He returned to sanity within months, with 3a's.

Steve F.

Yup, Watertown!

-k

[kkantor]

k-

K&L was in Watertown, right? I remember them well. A friend of mine--in an obvious moment of weakness--dragged me there to accompany him as he bought ESS-9's (not Heils; these were 12" 3-ways, cone M-T) to replace his 5's.

He returned to sanity within months, with 3a's.

Steve F.

Yup, Watertown!

-k

[kkantor]

From Roy Allison's Stereophile interview: "All the speakers, with the exception of the AR-5, were phenomenally successful."

I still have the brochures from my 1975 AR-2ax purchase, and the notes I jotted down on one of them include the discounted pricing:

AR-3a $205 ($295 list)

AR-5 $170 ($215 list)

AR-2ax $115 ($165 list)

As you can see, the 5 street-priced much closer to the 3a than the 2ax. AR tried to market the 5 as a 3a for people whose needs didn't require or support a 12" woofer, but buyers perceived it as a 2ax with a dome midrange that sold for almost as much as a 3a (I know I did at the time). I bought 2ax's because I was a new college grad with a tight budget (I figured that eventually I would upgrade to the 3a or its replacement when the 2ax's wore out), but if I had had more to spend, or any idea that I'd still have my 1975 AR speakers 35 years and 5 increasingly larger homes later, I would still have skipped over the 5 and sprung for the 3a.

Wow, the 2ax was cheap! That explains it. Stuck between aspirational and budget.

-k

[Steve F]

Wow, the 2ax was cheap! That explains it. Stuck between aspirational and budget.

-k

Actually, those prices are higher than the long-term 'traditional' prices. For years, the list prices were unchanged at

3a-- $250

5 --$175

2ax-- $128

You could expect 25% off list at most mail-order houses and deep-discounting retailers. I bought my 2ax's from Fred Locke Stereo in Avon CT in Feb 1972 for $96 ea. Now that's one heckuva deal.

Only at the very end of their market life, in the '73-'76 time frame, did AR raise the lists to what Gene K has there. But those were not the prices for the majority of the speakers' time on the market.

Steve F.

[genek]

Only at the very end of their market life, in the '73-'76 time frame, did AR raise the lists to what Gene K has there. But those were not the prices for the majority of the speakers' time on the market.

It was 1974, actually. In 1971 the government attempted to hold down the 6%+ inflation rate by limiting wage and price increases, but the result was just to bottle things up so that inflation went into double digits when the controls were lifted in 1974. I missed the window to get my $96 2ax's because I was still a starving student until 1975. But even in 1975 dollars, a $38 price increase for a pair was still relatively easy to swallow compared to the way prices go up today.