Speaker Wires

[dick]

Went to Home Depot to finish off the AR3a restoration with some new speaker wires. They had wires in 14 and 16 ga. by GE but none said Copper Wire. But it LOOKED coppery, and on the back they showed the 2 wires, one identified as "copper colored," the other "silver colored." The obvious, I thought, was that they were all copper and they were touting how to tell the - from the + wires. (WalMart had Philips brand wires with simlilar nondefinition of actual material.) Took the old 18 ga. wires off, put on new Home Depot GE 16 ga. and it was horrid. Music that used to be well defined was blurred. Yuk! No way to treat 3a's. The wires were returned to Home Depot, hopefully for smelting.

Unlike construction related wiring that has ASTM and UL requirements, it seems that speaker wire is wide open for marketeers to talk around what's important: what's in the wire, number of strands. I'm pretty sure that most folks buying a department store stereo and getting this sort of wire wouldn't know the lack in quality because no comparison would be conducted.

Called Radio Shack, looking for a bit of a reality check, and was informed that they sell 99.8% pure copper speaker wire as well as a copper alloy wire. The Home Depot/GE wires were apparently of the alloy sort--possibly aluminum and other stuff to bulk up the wire diameter. Radio Shack sells their 16 ga. real copper wires in two varieties: a) regular and with a special weave that, according to the saleperson, allows bass & tweeter frequencies whcih, they told me, travel at different speeds, to arrive at the speaker at the same time. He said I'd hear a difference. Will I? I'm demurring here....

Cost differences? RS regular 99.8% pure copper 16 ga. < Home Depot "copper colored" 16 ga. RS fancy weave wires +2x the cost of the regular RS 16a.

18 ga. 99.8% copper wire at Radio Shack only available in regular twisted, not fancy weave, cost < than RS 16 ga. regular.

Am inclined to listen to what advice comes from the Forum before I buy this, that, or the other. In the meantime the 3a's are doing okay with the old 18 ga. wires. Comments / advice welcome.

[Mexicomike]

McIntosh labs in the amp clinics proved many years ago that there was nothing to be gained with designer speaker cables. They used plain old copper wire OF SUFFICIENT GAUGE for the speaker run and ABd them against high dollar stuff. NOBODY could ever hear any difference. They quit doing the demos after McIntosh marketing folks found that people didn't associate expensive Mc components with hardware store zip cord.

As one of those nutso audophiles at the height of the component/speaker/cable wars, In blind tests I could hear differences in amplifiers sometimes, differences in speakers every time, and differences in cables never. Back then my hearing went off the high end beyond 20khz. So I considered myself one of the those "golden eared audiophiles." Yes, I was legend in my own mind!

Other than silver and copper, I never listened to other cables so I don't know if perhaps something lesser than copper might make a noticeable difference but if it does, I would think it would be gauge/power/length related. But since I never did it, I have no personal experience. I certainly did plenty of the "Oxygen-free copper cable" vs regular old copper. Can you spell "Marketing Hype?" But I'd suggest that any copper wire of sufficient gauge for the power/distance involved will be just fine.

[johnieo]

Dick:

When experimenting, it is best to change only one variable at a time; however, that's impossible when changing speaker wire. ( a ): Wire was changed. ( b ): Four end connections were changed on speakers. ( c ): Four end connections were changed--probably different both mechanically and electrically--on amplifier. One cannot a prioi assign all observed differences to ( a ).

Cheers

John

[dingus]

for the price i dont think you can beat canare 4s11 starquad cable, available online for less than $1.50 per foot. i've used it in my main rig for a couple of years and couldnt be happier.

[genek]

Other than silver and copper, I never listened to other cables so I don't know if perhaps something lesser than copper might make a noticeable difference but if it does, I would think it would be gauge/power/length related. But since I never did it, I have no personal experience. I certainly did plenty of the "Oxygen-free copper cable" vs regular old copper. Can you spell "Marketing Hype?" But I'd suggest that any copper wire of sufficient gauge for the power/distance involved will be just fine.

I have a pair of those "high end" speaker cables that I won as a door prize at a hifi show back in the 70's. The lugs at the ends are very sturdy and the gold plating has never shown any sign of corrosion, I have to grant them that. All my other speaker leads are plain old 16AWG zipcord (I do insist on the stuff with clear insulation and one tinned conductor because I have trouble seeing the #$%^ polarity ridge on the solid colored stuff), and every 10 years or so I have to snip off a couple of inches at each end and restrip because the metal has shown signs of oxidation.

But, yes, if you shop for wire at Home Depot, stay away from the stuff packaged as speaker wire and get the 16AWG stuff they sell by the foot in the lighting dept. The last time I was there I noticed they now carry 14AWG as well.

[dick]

stay away from the stuff packaged as speaker wire and get the 16AWG stuff they sell by the foot in the lighting dept. The last time I was there I noticed they now carry 14AWG as well.

I'm thinking what you're thinking, Genek. Great idea that Mike and RoyC have in the past mentioned. Folks who would fool other folks would get badly drubbed if they degraded household wiring specs...and the "lamp cord" or zipcord (pick a name) is spec'd by, I think, UL. I'll visit that section of the store and check it out.

On older wires that I have here, with both conductors natural copper, I use my meter in 'continuity' mode and label one side's ends "+" with some tabs of white electrician's tape.

My notion of equipment wiring has been long in flux. I paid a mini-fortune (well, maybe $40 --15 years ago -- for a little 2 ft. run or so) for the lines that connect CD player to amplifier. I'm happy with them although I've never compared them to others. The only other wires on my bare bones setup are the amp-to-speaker wires which are now 'figured out.' But on other setups here I've not yet figured out what if any connections need those high quality wires and connecting lugs. Examples: TT to amp; DVD to TV & amp. And YES!, I've now fallen victim to the proper idea of the multi-vintage-speaker household! -- I herewith divulge .. drum roll please...: AR3a, AR4x, KLH23 -- YAHOOOOO! and my wife loves them all for their sound too. All right maestro...it's Sound of Music time...Hit it!

[soundminded]

Over the years, I've bought more wire than anyone I know. Well over a million dollars worth, maybe well over two million dollars worth. All kinds of wire for every imaginable purpose. My biggest single purchase, about $330,000 worth around 25 years ago for a highly redundant data highway between two buildings about 1000 feet apart in a software development complex. A data center and PDF (primary data facility..ie link to another building) at one end, a high rise office building at the other. No splices allowed right up to the top fllor, about a 1500 foot run. At one time or another, it seemed to me I had every wire peddler in America in my office. Out of curiousity, I asked Belden's factory rep what she thought. She told me Belden will make any kind of wire that exists and any kind that doesn't if I could supply a specification for it but for audio equipment, not to waste my money on anything out of the ordinary off the shelf product.

There probably isn't a single electrical circuit element that has a more accurate mathematical model than wire. It's been studied since the telegraph and the equation called the telegrapher's equation was presented so early on for me that for years I'd completely forgotten about it. It can be incorporated as a network element between two electronic components such as an audio amplifier output stage and a loudspeaker crossover network input to determine mathematically what role it plays, a real wire versus and ideal wire. Then it can be thoroughly tested on a lab bench to see how well the math model correlates. And it has proven so unimpeachable a model that it is taken for granted. Audiophiles must think that large wire manufacturers are too stupid to see to their needs cheaply and effectively. This is of course absurd, they have developed products and defined them clearly within the first few decades of the 20th century to the point where engineers and scientists take them for granted in most circumstances with complete confidence and justification.

I haven't tried any experiments with speaker wires but I did try a couple with interconnects. I wanted to see if I could find any difference between a real interconnect wire and a shunt, the only valid test of wire. Not wire A aginst wire B but wire A against a bypass. I put my cheapo wires between the tape output jacks and the tape input jacks and by switching between source and tape monitor I could not hear any difference on any program material at any loudness level. But as a much tougher test, I connected them between the video output jack of my VCR and the video input jack of my Sony 36" Xtra Brite TV set. The source was the VCR tuner connected to my cable TV network. The comparison was the RF output from the VCR connected to the RF input to the TV. By switching between the TV's tuner and video input, I could not see any difference on any picture. The NTSC signal has over 300 times the bandwidth of an audio signal. My conclusion, except for shielding and quality of construction, you really can't do better than the $1 Radio Shack or dollar store cables.

BTW, you can additionally effectively shield them yourself with aluminum foil and a thin bare copper wire called a drain wire along its length. That's what is under the outer jacket around many well shielded coax wires and twisted pair wires. This is not recommended for speaker cables and strictly forbidden for power cords. It will violate the terms of its UL listing and by restricting heat dissipation, greatly increase the risk of a fire.

[Mexicomike]

To be fair and mention "the other side," my jazz/blues guitarist friend SWEARS by his silver guitar lead cable, stating that his "sound" would be unacceptable without it. He has played for me, changing cables and while I sit there everytime saying, "uh...nope, don't hear any difference" he is saying "Oh my God, how can you listen to that regular cable?"

Like I said, I cannot hear any difference but he claims the differences are dramatic. I mentioned Dumbo's magic feather once but that didn't go over very well...

[zcon67]

Zip cord seems to work well for me. White, brown, sometimes black too. All I have ever seen has one side with a rib, the other smooth that is easy to identify by using a fingernail to detect the rib for polarity. It is copper.

PeteZ

[soundminded]

I considered building a simple relay as a shunt to test speaker wires to see if they had any effect at changing sound at all in a way similar to what I described for the interconnects...but I wasn't interested enough to expend the time and effort. It wouldn't cost very much to build. I think there is a misconception about wire. It has a specific function, to get a signal from point A to point B in a circuit without affecting it. If there is a problem in a system with wires that do exactly that, then the way to correct the problem is at the source. If you looked for the right wire to solve a problem even if they did alter the sound, you could spend a great deal of time and money searching for just the right one. Just because a wire affects one system one way, doesn't mean it will affect all others in the same way or to the same degree especially when you take into consideration the length. BTW, to anyone worrying about the time difference between different frequencies getting from your amplifier to your loudspeakers, at the speed and lengths you deal with in a home audio system, that difference is so small as to be beyond negligable. One thing people who sell wire and a lot of other audio gear do is talk in generalities. Ask them the time difference for say 100 feet of ordinary zip cord at 20 hz and 20 khz. See if it's as much as one microsecond.

[RoyC]

But it LOOKED coppery, and on the back they showed the 2 wires, one identified as "copper colored," the other "silver colored."

Called Radio Shack, looking for a bit of a reality check, and was informed that they sell 99.8% pure copper speaker wire as well as a copper alloy wire.

...another vote for zip cord here.

Many years ago I also tried 16ga wire used for outdoor low voltage lighting applications. It worked fine, but the sound seemed too "bright"

I'm wondering what this "alloy" speaker wire is all about.

Roy

[genek]

Zip cord seems to work well for me. White, brown, sometimes black too. All I have ever seen has one side with a rib, the other smooth that is easy to identify by using a fingernail to detect the rib for polarity. It is copper.

All non-colorcoded electrical zipcord has the rib, but I had trouble finding it in spaces like the ones where my amps and speakers live, and always ended up tying knots at both ends of one conductor to make polarity more obvious. So I prefer the clear stuff, copper wire with one conductor tinned.

I'm still scratching my head a bit trying to figure out what the "copper colored" and "silver colored" wire might be if it isn't just plain and tinned copper. Most copper alloys are either more expensive than plain old copper or harder to make into wire (and thus make more expensive wire). My best guess as a mechanical engineer trying to theorize about things electrical is that they probably were copper, and if they delivered poor performance it was either because the AWG was actually smaller than claimed or the quality of the wire was poor and there were breaks in strands along its length, either of which might cause the wire to become more capacitive.

[dick]

All non-colorcoded electrical zipcord has the rib, but I had trouble finding it in spaces like the ones where my amps and speakers live, and always ended up tying knots at both ends of one conductor to make polarity more obvious. So I prefer the clear stuff, copper wire with one conductor tinned.

I'm still scratching my head a bit trying to figure out what the "copper colored" and "silver colored" wire might be

Bought the clear zipcord with one side tinned, the other copper. UL rating. 18 ga. Rewired 3a to amp. and all is golden. Perhaps I would have gone for the 16 ga. out of curiosity but they didn't carry it in a clear covering.

Earlier, that sense of curiosity sent me to Radio Shack where I looked over the speaker wires options. None said they were copper. Went to the clerk with a couple and asked her to check the specs. Even though, on purpose, one wire was for in-wall purposes and carried at UL label, the specs never identified wire as copper much less the telephone clerk's comment of the day before that RShack carried copper alloy as well as 99.8% pure copper speaker wire.

[genek]

Bought the clear zipcord with one side tinned, the other copper. UL rating. 18 ga. Rewired 3a to amp. and all is golden. Perhaps I would have gone for the 16 ga. out of curiosity but they didn't carry it in a clear covering.

Well, that's disappointing. I hate having to deal with those molded polarity ribs in solid colored wire.

[johnieo]

Dick:

It is interesting to note how the audiophile mind works when an honest question contains a "hot button" phase like speaker wire. Fourteen responses to your call for help to date: Thirteen get sidetracked on a tangential discussion of speaker wire similarity.

Did you properly clean the wire ends? did you tin the wire ends? Did you make good contact to a banana plug if used? Did you use an ohmmeter to check the resistance of each wire after preparing ends? In substance, did you make good ohmic contact between the two ends end of each wire?

Cheers,

John

[genek]

It is interesting to note how the audiophile mind works when an honest question contains a "hot button" phase like speaker wire. Fourteen responses to your call for help to date: Thirteen get sidetracked on a tangential discussion of speaker wire similarity.

Did you properly clean the wire ends? did you tin the wire ends? Did you make good contact to a banana plug if used? Did you use an ohmmeter to check the resistance of each wire after preparing ends? In substance, did you make good ohmic contact between the two ends end of each wire?

John, by the time Dick posted his original question he had already returned the "horrid" speaker wire to HD and was asking for advice on what to get instead, so there was no point asking how he had handled the wire (plus, HD took it back, so we can assume that he didn't do any tinning, stripping or other modifications that would have made the stuff unreturnable).

Now, if he had installed the lighting dept. zipcord I recommended he get and had come back and said he still had all the same problems...

[oldguide]

Funny you went to Home Depot for speaker wire. Several years ago The Absolute Sound found Home Depot EXTENSION CORDS were a recommended buy and beat out some high end cables. The Amazing Randi, a magician who likes to debunk various claims, has had a standing offer for years to makers of high end cables to prove they are better than ordinary lamp cord. So far no one has taken up his offer.

[Diamonds&Rust]

I once did a series of comparisons between 4-foot sections of Monster Cable and 12-foot sections of 18 AWG lamp cord, using an ABX device.

Do you happen to recall what was connected to the ends? (amp / speaker combination)

Do you recall what you were listening to for the tests?

Bret

[dick]

Dick:

Did you properly clean the wire ends? did you tin the wire ends? Did you make good contact to a banana plug if used? Did you use an ohmmeter to check the resistance of each wire after preparing ends? In substance, did you make good ohmic contact between the two ends end of each wire?

Cheers,

John

Hi John,

I did clean wire ends by scraping the exposed ends with a knife until bright, twisting the strands. No tinning of both ends but I did solder on lugs to the end attaching to the speakers. Hmmmm, should I tin ends of my new wires? Sounds like a good thing for maximum contact. The amplifier has a slot within which I shove a wire end, then tighten a screw onto it; the AR3a, as you know, has a tightening nut on the connector. Could soon tin both ends in proper configuration, although the speakers are singing so nicely now. Anything to induce greater quality, and a bit of tinning is probably the only tool I've got in my electronic skill bucket.

I did not conduct any resistance comparisons although I did try. Here comes the Novice with shoe laces untied -- I couldn't figure out the meter which didn't mesh with my incorrect assessment of 18 ga. stranded wire resistance from a table on the internet (4.5~ ohms/ft -- probably missed some mulitplier in the table re: Ohms or Length). I simply flubbed that whole deal. My goal at that time was to return the poor sounding wire and opt for zipcord. The poor sound came from something! -- so far I've only read your comments re: ends & wire changes (?); Genek's re: broken internal wire strands; and the Radio Shack telephone call re: copper alloy vs. 'pure' copper which sounds more likely to me, but I don't of course know.

I was properly schooled by my Dad a zillion years ago on getting copper bright before soldering or even for twisting in a wire nut. I still do it.

The zipcord performs nicely. My curiosity now is simply armchair stuff: would there be a difference in hearing between 16 ga. and 18 ga.?

[dick]

Do you recall what you were listening to for the tests?

Bret

No. But we typically listen to several pieces to check things out. Most likely, given our preferences, it was a small ensemble (2 to 4 players) going at Bach or Brahms with, for sure, a cello sawing away. The sound difference was immediately there. Both wife and I picked it up right away. Muddled, mushy.

Over the years I've lost faith in these large (such as GE) corps to do the right thing for the people if they can figure a way to slide away from it, and this sense/attitude didn't help. There was a quick rush to judgement based on what was heard. I suspect then and now that if a simple product is regulated (does this sound pertinent today?) by an agency such as building codes (which might reference UL or ASTM or some Fed. Spec.), then you can rely on the manufacturer to conform at least to minimum specs. Without regulation, however, anything can happen -- Chinese factories have been adulterating lots of unregulated/regulated "standards" in the past few years ... and the GE wire was made in China. Moreover, speaker wire not enclosed in walls (construction / building code issues come into play then) don't seem to be regulated. Zipcord, however, designed to carry house current to a free-standing electrical device, is regulated. I've tried here to clarify that these are opinions, attitudes, quick rushes that deny the original GE speaker wire the benefit of John's call for objective instrument testing.

[rrcrain]

Hi John,

I did clean wire ends by scraping the exposed ends with a knife until bright, twisting the strands. No tinning of both ends but I did solder on lugs to the end attaching to the speakers. Hmmmm, should I tin ends of my new wires? Sounds like a good thing for maximum contact. The amplifier has a slot within which I shove a wire end, then tighten a screw onto it; the AR3a, as you know, has a tightening nut on the connector. Could soon tin both ends in proper configuration, although the speakers are singing so nicely now. Anything to induce greater quality, and a bit of tinning is probably the only tool I've got in my electronic skill bucket.

I did not conduct any resistance comparisons although I did try. Here comes the Novice with shoe laces untied -- I couldn't figure out the meter which didn't mesh with my incorrect assessment of 18 ga. stranded wire resistance from a table on the internet (4.5~ ohms/ft -- probably missed some mulitplier in the table re: Ohms or Length). I simply flubbed that whole deal. My goal at that time was to return the poor sounding wire and opt for zipcord. The poor sound came from something! -- so far I've only read your comments re: ends & wire changes (?); Genek's re: broken internal wire strands; and the Radio Shack telephone call re: copper alloy vs. 'pure' copper which sounds more likely to me, but I don't of course know.

I was properly schooled by my Dad a zillion years ago on getting copper bright before soldering or even for twisting in a wire nut. I still do it.

The zipcord performs nicely. My curiosity now is simply armchair stuff: would there be a difference in hearing between 16 ga. and 18 ga.?

Only if your amp/speaker combination exceeds the current capacity of the wire.

To date, I've only read one paper that made a rational case in support of "exotic" wire configurations. It had nothing to do with copper versus silver, insulation type or any other nonsense. The author provided real worl examples of people connecting amp/preamp combinations that were, well, unwise and foolish due to impedance mismatches. If an interconnect with enough inductance, capacitance or both is put between the devices, they can then perform reasonably well.

The author also pointed out it would be far wiser and cheaper to buy matching equipment than spend money on exotic wire.

[dick]

In case anyone is so unchallenged with the day as to go to HD to buy and test speaker wires (I'm not in that club!), here's the gritty details on getting what I bought. At eye level shelves: GE-branded speaker wire that states ga. Below on bottom shelves, for much less $, speaker wire that is visually equivalent to 16 ga. but does state the ga. That's the item I bought: GE (and JASCO and, I vaguely recall, Thompson?, China), colors of wires ID'd, no gauge noted. Visually compare ga. of package with ga. noted, and the bottom shelf variety. I returned cut wires to HD and they took them back because I said the wires didn't perform to acceptable standards. No problem on the return.

[soundminded]

Only if your amp/speaker combination exceeds the current capacity of the wire.

To date, I've only read one paper that made a rational case in support of "exotic" wire configurations. It had nothing to do with copper versus silver, insulation type or any other nonsense. The author provided real worl examples of people connecting amp/preamp combinations that were, well, unwise and foolish due to impedance mismatches. If an interconnect with enough inductance, capacitance or both is put between the devices, they can then perform reasonably well.

The author also pointed out it would be far wiser and cheaper to buy matching equipment than spend money on exotic wire.

"If an interconnect with enough inductance, capacitance or both is put between the devices, they can then perform reasonably well."

Then why not add inductors and capacitors to the cheap wires that don't have enough? We have a technical name for that kind of circuit whether it is due to the wire itself or added components. It's called a filter. Put it between two active amplifying stages to buffer it from being loaded down at its output or input and it's called an equalizer.

[genek]

Then why not add inductors and capacitors to the cheap wires that don't have enough?

Bad idea. You realize how short a path it is from ideas like that to long forum threads where people debate the merits of tube vs. solid-state speaker wire, don't you...?

[Mexicomike]

"My curiosity now is simply armchair stuff: would there be a difference in hearing between 16 ga. and 18 ga.?"

One of my best memories from blind testing involved a couple of amplifiers, I can't even remember what they were...doesn't matter. This was at Bill Case sound in San Antonio, TX circa 1973. They had the amps all level matched, etc and there were 5-6 of us listening. At one point, after playing one of the amps for a couple of minutes, the guy doing the switching said, "Listen now how the other amp brings out the orchestral bells better." He made the switch and YEP, everybody agreed at how much clearer the bells were. BUT he hadn't switched the amps at all. It was the same amp that "didn't" bring out the bells until he told folks what to "expect." It was a great lesson, which was the point of the demo.

So even if the 18's are adequate for the power involved, if you want those 16ga wires to sound better, they will!