new to this -- AR3a's from dump to living room

[dick]

Truly impressed by website, forum, and especially "Restoring the AR-3a" guide -- profound thanks to authors. On the AR3a that I rescued from the local dump (saved from the rain by the dumpmeister who put them in a shed!), one oinly has a grumble/hiss -- will dig into it soon but it sounds like it is coming from the woofer. If so, and if woofer is "repairable," is there a list of skilled, dependable repairers about? (Called AB Tech -- they don't repair.) Also, assuming for the moment an "old" AR3a (serial numbers below 31,000), what should be simply replaced when I get into the cabinets? For example, should capacitors be renewed since, if I read it correctly, they degrade over time? Objective here is certainly to keep costs at a minimum, but from the little bit I dared to hear from these speakers, we're going to love them, and we'd like that to be for a long, long time.

[Guest rbrumett]

Truly impressed by website, forum, and especially "Restoring the AR-3a" guide -- profound thanks to authors. On the AR3a that I rescued from the local dump (saved from the rain by the dumpmeister who put them in a shed!), one oinly has a grumble/hiss -- will dig into it soon but it sounds like it is coming from the woofer. If so, and if woofer is "repairable," is there a list of skilled, dependable repairers about? (Called AB Tech -- they don't repair.) Also, assuming for the moment an "old" AR3a (serial numbers below 31,000), what should be simply replaced when I get into the cabinets? For example, should capacitors be renewed since, if I read it correctly, they degrade over time? Objective here is certainly to keep costs at a minimum, but from the little bit I dared to hear from these speakers, we're going to love them, and we'd like that to be for a long, long time.

You will be getting many answers and ideas from the members. #1-do not try to run the speakers until they are visually inspected or more damage will occur. The woofers will more than likely have rotted surrounds. #2 pictures(high quality) will help obtain some answers-good luck!

Thanks,

Rick

[dick]

Here's a photo of what I found when the grille was removed just a few minutes ago The outter edge of the woofer is indeed rotted and falling off. I'll follow up this evening by tilting cabinet over, undoing screws per those fantastic instructions which I must read and re-read and re-re-read and so on since this is all new (and interesting) territory for me. But, tell me, is this speaker dead or simply seriously ill? Can I attempt a rescue? Also, will open up other speaker to check out woofer status there.

Let me know if photo adequate or not. Can change camera mode to "close up" and get greater details.

[dick]

Here's 2 photos of the 2nd speaker. The glue held firmly to grille -- there were small staples imbedded backwards into the glue -- I'm guessing this is a repaired woofer. Take a look: Cloth surround, cloth "button" (terminolgy up for grabs here) in center, and what looks like a cardboard doughnut near center. In any event this woofer works, the other needs help.

Sized these images to be larger than previous image. Detailing okay?

[JKent]

Here's a photo of what I found when the grille was removed just a few minutes ago The outter edge of the woofer is indeed rotted and falling off. I'll follow up this evening by tilting cabinet over, undoing screws per those fantastic instructions which I must read and re-read and re-re-read and so on since this is all new (and interesting) territory for me. But, tell me, is this speaker dead or simply seriously ill? Can I attempt a rescue? Also, will open up other speaker to check out woofer status there.

Let me know if photo adequate or not. Can change camera mode to "close up" and get greater details.

Welcome Dick

I do not think the speaker is seriously ill. These are GREAT sought-after speakers and you are a hero for rescuing them! (and a very fortunate dumpster diver )

Someone more knowledgable than I will give you some guidance, but you obviously have 2 different woofers. #2 is an original, #1 looks like a replacement, with foam surround. Ideally, you would want to have 2 matching cloth surround woofers but a spare may be difficult to find and/or expensive, so refoaming the replacement may be a practical alternative.

If one of the How-to Manual authors picks up on this thread you will get really great advice. In the meantime study that manual and plan your cosmetic work.

Good luck!

Kent

[genek]

Here's 2 photos of the 2nd speaker. The glue held firmly to grille -- there were small staples imbedded backwards into the glue -- I'm guessing this is a repaired woofer. Take a look: Cloth surround, cloth "button" (terminolgy up for grabs here) in center, and what looks like a cardboard doughnut near center. In any event this woofer works, the other needs help.

If the serial numbers are close, the odds are that they both came with cloth woofers and one was replaced with a newer foam woofer, which in turn has also failed. The foam woofer can be refoamed, but if the cloth surround of the other woofer has rotted or otherwise failed, I'm not aware of a good replacement (I'be heard of people replacing cloth surrounds with foam ones, no idea how that sounds).

Is there no sound at all from the mid and high drivers?

[dick]

The speakers' serial numbers are sequential: 30,960 and 30,961. It seemed to me that all of the speakers (6) were working when I played them here. Indeed, Genek, you seem right that #1 woofer is a replacement (a now failed replacement) while #2 (cloth surround) continues ever faithful.

Don't think I can ever match #2 woofer with another like it (tell me that ain't so!), so, based on the little good quality sound that I did hear, would like at this time to see if #1 woofer can be saved, learn the cost of repairs, get it up and running for more extended hearing. Wife and I both deflated to return to the now dim sound of our own Philips 30 year old speakers....

Woofer #1 now out of cabinet but not yet unsoldered. (#1 cabinet packed to the hilt behind magnet with white cotton, behind which is the yellowish fiberglass that I'd guess is the original packing.) Assume the following is the right course of action, but please advise:

1) Mark wires to/from Woofer#1-- and the thin wires to paper cone and unsolder.

2) Carefully pull out damaged paper speaker cone from magnet base. (Is this how one does it?)

3) Inspect the interior coil attached to paper cone for any damage.

4) If coil/rippled paper okay (visual from outside looking in at rippled paper: looks good), buy (from whom? Cannot find a list of suppliers on the Forum) a 5/8" foam surround for 12" woofer with adhesive, affix to paper cone and frame, resolder wires, seal frame to wood and screw in place; or

5) If coil damaged, send to someone (who? Is there a list of repairers?) for repairs. Alternative might be to find a replacement woofer to match Woofer #2.

6) Recoat #2 woofer's cloth surround with Permagasket stuff?? Recoat #2's center cloth cone too?

Well, it is nearly midnight. I'll leave this all "as is" until there's hopefully more help from you thoughtful ones out there. Thanks to all for comments so far. Fun!

[Robert_S]

Assume the following is the right course of action, but please advise:

1) Mark wires to/from Woofer#1-- and the thin wires to paper cone and unsolder.

2) Carefully pull out damaged paper speaker cone from magnet base. (Is this how one does it?)

That's far too drastic an action to contemplate at this early stage! If refoaming is all that is required, there's no need to remove the cone.

Well, it is nearly midnight. I'll leave this all "as is" until there's hopefully more help from you thoughtful ones out there. Thanks to all for comments so far. Fun!

Proceed with due care and attention, research and restore at a leisurely pace, and you'll find the journey worthwhile.

Robert_S

[genek]

Don't think I can ever match #2 woofer with another like it (tell me that ain't so!), so, based on the little good quality sound that I did hear, would like at this time to see if #1 woofer can be saved, learn the cost of repairs, get it up and running for more extended hearing.

Assume the following is the right course of action, but please advise:

Cloth surround AR3/3a woofers are occaisionally listed on eBay;

you will not find anything equivalent new.

It is not necessary to remove the cone if all the other woofer

needs is a refoam (though if the woofer produces no sound

at all, there's more wrong with it). I don't refoam my own

woofers (I paid someone else to do it), so I can't tell you

exactly how to test to see what yours needs.

[Guest rbrumett]

Cloth surround AR3/3a woofers are occaisionally listed on eBay;

you will not find anything equivalent new.

It is not necessary to remove the cone if all the other woofer

needs is a refoam (though if the woofer produces no sound

at all, there's more wrong with it). I don't refoam my own

woofers (I paid someone else to do it), so I can't tell you

exactly how to test to see what yours needs.

There are quite a few places that can "repair" the woofers-one of them is "Carl's Custom Loudspeakers" a member of this forum. He does have a web site.

[Guest winters860]

Rather than pay to have the replacement woofer re-foamed and live with a mis-matched pair, I'd try to track down another cloth-surround woofer from an AR-3 or early AR-3a.

If you are comfortable trying a refoam job yourself, I might suggest living with the replacement woofer until a cloth-surround model drops into your lap at a reasonable price. Carl, perhaps, or any number of eBay vendors will sell you foam.

Keep chewing on "Restoring the AR-3a" and you'll find the answers you are looking for.

[JKent]

There are quite a few places that can "repair" the woofers-one of them is "Carl's Custom Loudspeakers" a member of this forum. He does have a web site.

Hi Dick.

Slow down a bit--you don't need to do the major surgery you describe yet. If the speaker needs refoaming, Carl can certainly do it, or you can do it yourself. I like the kits and service from M-Sound. Here is the site with step-by-step pictorial instructions on refoaming. A kit will cost about $25 and includes 2 surrounds. If you only want one surround, contact M-Sound and see if you can buy a half-kit:

http://www.citlink.net/~msound/

If there is indeed no sound when you test the woofer alone (disconnected), you may want to send it to the acknowledged speaker rebuilding genius, Bill LeGall at Millersound:

http://www.millersound.net/about.htm

Check the links on the Classic Speaker Pages home page. If you want a new replacement driver, you may be able to get one from AB Tech. Follow the link found here. Their replacement for the 3a costs $130 and is probably what is in your box #1:

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/links.html

My advice: Certainly watch ebay. Then check your dead woofer after it has been disconnected from the crossover. If it works and just needs refoaming, do it yourself with an M-Sound kit. You will at least get the speakers up and running while you continue to search for an original driver. Or, you may find that the replacement woofer sounds just fine. If it is indeed dead, I would probably not spend the money to have Bill LeGall repair it--it will probably be cheaper to buy the replacement from AB Tech if it is still available.

Good luck

Kent

[dick]

Thanks to everyone for all the helpful info.

JKent: nice finish on the AR2a's. If you don't sand, what do you do to giet rid of scratches, dings? Would like to do a nice job on my AR3a's so I'm asking. All info on the finish greatly appreciated. Like I'm thinking of masking speakers, doing hand sanding of gashes and the like, then some sort of oil finish. Also, thanks for suggesting Carl for refoaming. I've called him and as soon as I can will get the woofer to him.

For the winter, after Carl's repair, will listen and learn what I have and either a) live with it or become hopelessly audiophilic and seek that cloth surround original woofer(does anyone have one they'd part with?) and will seriously wonder about going for Carl's kit for pots, capacitors. I'm inclined, is this a serious disease?, toward the latter.

Again, thank you to all.

[JKent]

yES--IT IS A SERIOUS AND WONDERFUL AFFLICTION

sOMETIMES i DO HAVE TO SAND, BUT VENEER IS UNFORGIVING SO BE VERY CAREFUL (oops--caps lock on the new keyboard)

Dings are anoter matter. Some can be steamed out. For corner dings, John (johnieo) has developed a really great filler that I hope he won't mind sharing: add a drop of Mixol brown pigment (from an art supply shop) to 12-hour (not 5 minute) epoxy. The resulting filler is rock hard after it cures and, unlike "plastic wood" will stay on a banged corner and not get knocked off.

You have probably read about my enthusiasm for Howard's Restor-a-Finish. Sometimes scratches fade with application of this product (although sometimes they darken).

Wet sanding with wet/dry sandpaper and Watco Danish Oil is a good way to get a smooth finish, and is described somewhere in these pages.

Some brave souls do use orbital sanders on old speakers. I have. Got some great results but also ruined 2 cabinets so no more power sanding for me.

ymmv

Kent

[RoyC]

Here's 2 photos of the 2nd speaker. The glue held firmly to grille -- there were small staples imbedded backwards into the glue -- I'm guessing this is a repaired woofer. Take a look: Cloth surround,

Dick,

Based on the appearance and low serial numbers, your 3as originally had cloth surround woofers as shown in your 2nd photo. The foam surround woofer is obviously a later replacement version (possibly the Japanese manufactured Tonegen woofer). It should be noted that the cloth surround version used a different woofer inductor in the crossover (#7 vs the later #9). While the repaired foam surround woofer will work, matching the cloth surround woofer would be preferable, imo. The later foam surround woofer, especially the Tonegen, had somewhat different response characteristics.

Roy

[genek]

All info on the finish greatly appreciated. Like I'm thinking of masking speakers, doing hand sanding of gashes and the like, then some sort of oil finish.

First, find out what the existing wood is like at its best by deep cleaning. You can use naptha or one of the "finish restorers" like Howards Restor-a-Finish, which are basically cleaners with a solvent and sometimes some color added. Restorers are not much use on oiled finishes (they're really designed for varnishes), but they're easily-purchased wood cleaners.

If your original finish turns out to be in decent shape other than for gashes and scratches, these can be filled without having to redo existing finish with burn-in sticks.

http://www.mohawk-finishing.com/catalog_br....asp?ictNbr=109

http://www.mohawk-finishing.com/catalog_br....asp?ictNbr=107

For corner rebuilding I like these: http://www.mohawk-finishing.com/catalog_br....asp?ictNbr=113

As with most fillers, they don't take ordinary stain well, so I use these to touch up the color: http://www.mohawk-finishing.com/catalog_br....asp?ictNbr=120

And then these to put grain back on the filled spots: http://www.mohawk-finishing.com/catalog_br....asp?ictNbr=123

The speaker in the pictures below is the original finish, before and after. No sanding, no refinishing, just clean, repair, retouch and polish.

[dick]

Roy C: The "replacement" woofer, the one with the failed foam surround, is in a cabinet with a #7 inductor coil. (There's a #4,1,7) My impression without yet fully cleaning out the packing inside is that, per your comment and the text on restoration (Bravo!! to you for being an author), that there was a mismatch. (Does such a mismatch lead to over-stressing of foam and its failure? Curious about that.) This hopefully to be rectified by either installing an old "original" woofer or by modifying the #7 inductor with one of the text's 2 options.

I've also noticed that the combo woofer/mid-range capacitor (the giant box) is covered in metal (not like photo in text) so probably there's PCB within. Hmmm.

And, I tested the "sonic seal" of the other woofer -- that with cloth surround. It flunked. Prssed gently with a couple of fingers at edge of the center dust cover. It popped back immediately. Permatex 80062 not, so far, found locally (western MA) but is advertised on internet.

Seal around opening of removed woofer is a compressible foam like material. Pretty thin stuff. I'll try to get a good seal from it alone before adding other sealing options.

On exterior finish of cabinet: A close look shows a delicately thin veneer so I'll opt for near-zero sanding (I do have a large roll of 400 grit paper) and a light application of an oil -- I've had good luck over the years with kitchen olive oil on furniture--just needs renewing every year. Years of scars = a patina not to be denied, but to be esteemed. Fakers of antique furniture "distress" the wood by slahing away with chain and such -- There's a wee bit of that built in here.

Will report back in about a week or so as options unravel, as it begins to shape up.

[oldguide]

A few bits of advice from a former newbie:

1) Take pictures of everything every time you make a change. This is both a reference for you and can help those on the board who can help you.

2) As for finishing my preferred medium for working on AR cabinets is either 400 sandpaper or better yet steel wool (VERY fine). I finish with Howard's wax as I like the look of it. I echo what everyone says re the veneer--it is thin so don't be aggressive with it. I am surprised you did not have any delamination.

3) Get yourself an ohm meter to test your speakers. The bible, as I call it, has all the values.

Good luck! Once you get started on this hobby it is hard to stop.

[RoyC]

Roy C: The "replacement" woofer, the one with the failed foam surround, is in a cabinet with a #7 inductor coil. (There's a #4,1,7) My impression without yet fully cleaning out the packing inside is that, per your comment and the text on restoration (Bravo!! to you for being an author), that there was a mismatch. (Does such a mismatch lead to over-stressing of foam and its failure? Curious about that.) This hopefully to be rectified by either installing an old "original" woofer or by modifying the #7 inductor with one of the text's 2 options.

I've also noticed that the combo woofer/mid-range capacitor (the giant box) is covered in metal (not like photo in text) so probably there's PCB within. Hmmm.

And, I tested the "sonic seal" of the other woofer -- that with cloth surround. It flunked. Prssed gently with a couple of fingers at edge of the center dust cover. It popped back immediately. Permatex 80062 not, so far, found locally (western MA) but is advertised on internet.

Seal around opening of removed woofer is a compressible foam like material. Pretty thin stuff. I'll try to get a good seal from it alone before adding other sealing options.

Dick,

The inductor coil difference has no bearing on the deterioration of the foam.

In my experience, the smoother midrange response of the cloth surround woofer allows it to function better than the foam surround woofer with the #7 inductor coil. The cloth surround woofer also seems to work satisfactorily with the #9 coil. The foam surround woofer, however, is less versatile in this situation, and sounds best with its original, more restrictive #9 inductor coil.

The large wax block cap is held in place by two large metal straps attached to the cabinet with wood screws. The metal is not part of the capacitors. You will find deteriorated foam under it, which has become a black goo. (...don't know about PCB, but I have never seen one of these caps leak.)

The 3a cloth surround woofers are seldom porous. If anything, the original treatment has become stiff over time. I wouldn't apply Permatex unless at least some of the old treatment is removed first (a messy job). It is more likely that your cabinet gasket was not perfect, or the leak is elsewhere. A slightly leaky cabinet is preferable over a woofer that is not compliant enough. BTW, the cloth surround woofers were originally installed with putty gaskets.

We are pretty close to each other. I'm in eastern NY near Albany...feel free to contact me if I can be of assistance.

Roy

[Mexicomike]

When I rebuilt my LSTs they also had very poor woofer return - popped right back. Some of the problem in their case was missing screws in the crossover panel but even with that corrected they still returned rather quickly. Turned out the foam gasket for the woofers wasn't sealing very well. I replaced it with the duct seal "putty" as was used on my 3As and that did the trick. Don't know if all 3As used duct seal or if later ones used foam gaskets but I recommend you ditch the foam gaskets if you have them and use new seal for all the woofers and any other drivers that are removed. I wouldn't try to reuse the old sealant even if present - clean it all off and use new.

Lowes carries the stuff in 1lb bars in the department where they have ductwork for heating/ac. It's simply called "DUCT SEAL" and the package looks just like the 1lb blocks of C4 we used when I had the opportunity to visit an exotic southeast Asian country some years ago...

[oldguide]

Second to Mike's recommendation about duct seal. You will find it in the electrical section. It is what they use to seal exterior openings . When you run the main into the box the L is required by code to be filled with sealant. The stuff is sticky as heck. What I do is to pull off a hunk and roll between my hands to get a long thin strip. You just put these all around the speaker obviously making sure not to leave any gaps. You want enough so that when you screw the speakers down the stuff ooozed out from the edges.

BTW, it is obviously a little early for this but remember to screw the speakers down like you tighten tire nuts, in other words not in sequence.

Good luck!

[dick]

Here are some photos of the cloth surround and cloth dust cover of the original woofer. I tried to get close up photos to show the exposed fabric. On one pix you can see how the "goo" that was there rests atop the fabric. My sense was that the fabric was pretty much without anything of a sealer wt ihin it. What do you think?

Also a pix of the still soft after all those years putty under the flange of this woofer. The foam gasketing was under the replacement woofer with the foam surround. I'd think that the putty approach would be more of an acoustic barrier than the foam.

[genek]

Also a pix of the still soft after all those years putty under the flange of this woofer. The foam gasketing was under the replacement woofer with the foam surround. I'd think that the putty approach would be more of an acoustic barrier than the foam.

AR switched to foam gaskets sometime in the 70's. My 1975 2ax's are all sealed with foam gaskets and they've held up fine. The important thing is that a flat gasket is generally only good for one compression, and shouldn't be reused. Some AR components from the 90's on don't even use foam, and come with felt-like gasket material bonded to their flanges.

[Mexicomike]

I'd bet money that AR switched from duct seal to foam/felt because the latter were much cheaper and easier in production (timewise if not actual cost for the material) and worked OK. The duct seal is certainly more effective because it can seal regardless of any mismatches between the surfaces. I wouldn't bother at all with gaskets, new or old. The duct seal is less than a couple of bucks a block and one block (1 lb) will seal several pairs of speakers AND you can use the leftover for what it's really designed for - duct sealing!

[genek]

I'd bet money that AR switched from duct seal to foam/felt because the latter were much cheaper and easier in production (timewise if not actual cost for the material) and worked OK.

I'm sure that's true, but there are other reasons today for choosing not to caulk the drivers in, just as there's a reason why most of us reattach formerly glued and stapled grilles with velcro: the company is no longer around to provide service and someday we're probably going to have to get those bits out again. And if you're replacing original drivers with other vintage drivers, odds are it'll happen sooner than the 30 or so years the original was in there. "Working OK" is good enough for me if it makes things easier later on.