AR tweeter replacement ????????????

[roundhome]

call me stupid many have but why if we are going through all this to mod are speakers .WHY are we using a expensive one sorce only tweeter insted of a off the shelve less expensive one.

why ??????????????

roundsound

If i was to replace all the tweeters in my system including some that don't have any yet I would need 32 just to start with.

even if they brought them down to 50.00 that would still be 1600.00

[stan461]

My sentiments exactly.

I did buy 4 pair of replacement tweeters for about $35.00/pair on EBay. They were advertised as a replacement for the AR3a tweeter.

They work extremely well in my AR3a. In fact, I actually prefer them to the originals. That may be because in 35+ years there must be some degredation.

There just has to be a decent, cost-effective replacement out there. After all, I found some.

I don't know what these tweeters go for new.

I can post pictures again if anyone is interested.

[frankmarsi]

>My sentiments exactly.

>

>I did buy 4 pair of replacement tweeters for about $35.00/pair

>on EBay. They were advertised as a replacement for the AR3a

>tweeter.

>

>They work extremely well in my AR3a. In fact, I actually

>prefer them to the originals. That may be because in 35+ years

>there must be some degredation.

>

>There just has to be a decent, cost-effective replacement out

>there. After all, I found some.

>

>I don't know what these tweeters go for new.

>

>I can post pictures again if anyone is interested.

>

>

9-10-07

No that's O.K., why would we be? What da....are you two talking about?

Sheesh.. I thought I was bizarre. They're just now reporting about an older human than the 3 million year old earlier find, now it's 7 million years. The scientists are in an up roar! Maybe that's it?

FM

[roundhome]

>My sentiments exactly.

>

>I did buy 4 pair of replacement tweeters for about $35.00/pair

>on EBay. They were advertised as a replacement for the AR3a

>tweeter.

>

>They work extremely well in my AR3a. In fact, I actually

>prefer them to the originals. That may be because in 35+ years

>there must be some degredation.

>

>There just has to be a decent, cost-effective replacement out

>there. After all, I found some.

>

>I don't know what these tweeters go for new.

>

>I can post pictures again if anyone is interested.

>

>

Yes pleace if you would like pm me insted so Frank can still wonder what we are talking about:)

Jim

[stan461]

They came with adapters so that no cabinet re-working is necessary.

One member here figured it might be optimal with a 1 or 2 ohm resistor.

[dynaco_dan]

>They came with adapters so that no cabinet re-working is

>necessary.

>

>One member here figured it might be optimal with a 1 or 2 ohm

>resistor.

>

>

Hi there;

I believe that they were made by Seas in the 17th week in 2002.

They are 6 ohms not 4 ohms, so there will be more writing here from the techies, I am certain.

We can probably find the specs on the net to see how compatible they are.

At least if they are not perfect, and what is, they may be just what the doctor ordered.

Replacing both will at least sound the same.

Not a lot to invest with the adaptors included.

[roundhome]

ok what you have is a seas 25mm textile dome w chamber 6ohm fs hz 1200 80 watts sens 1w/1 mdb 90 28.75 each 14.35 for new voice coil

Jim

[frankmarsi]

9-12-07

O.K. Somebody, somewhere, please inform us people at CSP if these tweeters will work in a AR-3a or LST. Also how do they sound, how and where can I get the adapters to retro fit them, etc. etc.

I found them on the manufacturers site and elsewhere and they're under $40 bucks each, not bad, but I also was told that they're discontinued.

Anyone with some info please come forth- poor slobs like me might sell my 18 ABtech tweeters (most still packaged)and go for something like these if they actual sound better, although I'm still waiting for further details on hooking-up my ABtech rascals first.

He's gotta be someone's friend, Frank Marsi

[johnieo]

>I'm still waiting for further details on hooking-up my ABtech

>rascals first.

Patience Frank, Roy has been away since Friday. His last word was that he likes very much the sound of Ken's design with the 0.070 mH coil across the AB Tech tweeters. (He didn't initally, then discovered he wired the coil incorrectly!)

This observer would say that your only option to achieving anything like the original sound is the addition of the coil across the tweeter array. The AB Tech driver has been carefully measured and compared to both used and NOS AR-3a tweeters. Likely this is the only route to achieving anything like their original sound.

Sounds like what you need are some components and a hand with a soldering iron!

Cheers,

[Carlspeak]

>9-12-07

>O.K. Somebody, somewhere, please inform us people at CSP if

>these tweeters will work in a AR-3a or LST. Also how do they

>sound, how and where can I get the adapters to retro fit them,

>etc. etc.

>I found them on the manufacturers site and elsewhere and

>they're under $40 bucks each, not bad, but I also was told

>that they're discontinued.

Gee, using a Seas 25mm, 6 ohm tweeter and an adapter plate to successfuly replace the infamouse AR 3/4 inch dome... what a clever idea! :=)

My Super-Mod kit incudes an MDF adapter plate which I have the drawing for and can fabricate.

However, hang in there Frank. I think K.K., Johnny O'. and the guys are your best bet.

It's all about the music

Carl

Carl's Custom Loudspeakers

[frankmarsi]

9-12-07

O.K. John, Carl, I'll wait for Roy as you both give good advice, always. But I must again state that I'm looking to do this operation the easiest way possible. If it means using only one inductor and one resistor, I'd rather go that route and utilize the back panel to speed things up a bit.

Personally the AB-Techs have a nice appearance and I did spend a bundle on 18 of the suckers. In fact if this all goes well I may buy a few more for my other speakers too- but first I'll wait and see how this all turns out.

Off the AR topic for a moment if I may,thank you, I'm going to re-activate some old equipment that's been sitting around for years now. First my original Dyna ST-35, a PAS-3X pre-amp. and a not used since '72 my originally in '68 Fender Bassman Amp with two 6L6's too. I may use it to charge twelve "Calumet" strobe-light generators (rated at 15amps or 20 amps) that haven't been used in 3 years already,they're 1600 watt-seconds each. I used them in my photo business for many years, but thought of keeping them alive before the 'caps' are too far gone.

So the question is: can I get away with buying an imported low priced 3amp variac, will that rating be high enough or is a higher amp rating necessary for the simple tasks I'll be using it for?

There's a seller on the bay and others who sell new imported units, but they only rated at 3amps, I see many 7 and 10 amp models, prompting me to believe they may be more popular,and necessarily so.

Please advise, whom-ever is versed in this area.

Thank you 'above', I might have some friends after all.

Frank Marsi

[dynaco_dan]

Hi Frank;

If you are going to buy a variac, look down the road.

You might be able to find a use for a 3 or 4 amp unit now but my best advice is buy at least a 10 amp unit.

Even a 15 amp at a good price is a better value for the future.

I bought a Superior 10 amp variac (made in the USA) brand new for my test bench several years ago.

At the moment I cannot say thus far that I've needed a larger one but if I want to service my Crown or Dynaco amp, I wish I had paid the difference and bought the 15 amp unit.

My 10 amp may just meet the limits but the 15 amp would have been safer.

[frankmarsi]

9-12-07

Thanks Carl, there's nothing worse than waiting and not knowing. I’ll take your advice once again, I have little choice it seems. Tell me more about the adapters?

Dyna-Dan the man......pal-o-mine! I used to have some knowledge about electricity but, it faded and was displaced by so much other information through out the years, I don't take silly chances. These strobe units actual draw at least 15 amps when they're 're-cycling' and that's every two seconds on average. When being used and 4 to 6 units are going off simultaneously, thats drawing a heck of a lot of juice. My 10 or 12 lines in the studio were sometimes all tripped when shooting fast, especially when these momma's used to blow capacitors, old stuff does that when its had lot-sa wear.

So since these things draw at least 15 amps each, I'd need at least that much on a variac I must assume- uh-oh.......

From now on I being every ones friend, Frank Marsi

[Carlspeak]

>9-12-07

>Thanks Carl, there's nothing worse than waiting and not

>knowing. I’ll take your advice once again, I have little

>choice it seems. Tell me more about the adapters?

............

The plates are made from 1/4 inch thick MDF. Attached are 2 photos. One shows the plate along side my 3a Super-Mod tweeter. The second shows the tweeter installed with the plate.

It's all about the music

Carl

Carl's Custom Loudspeakers

[frankmarsi]

I'll consider the highs, but I love my original mids.

FM

[RoyC]

There are any number of tweeters that cost less than the AB Tech tweeter and would work acceptably IF someone is willing to do the required research to develop an appropriate crossover circuit. After that, the person doing the restoration must not only deal with installing the circuit but making the tweeter fit the cabinet.

I have accomplished some very satisfactory results with a couple of $10 Hi Vi Research tweeters, and I'm willing to bet Carl's very ambitious undertaking sounds quite good (nice work, Carl)...but neither of the above were accomplished by simply plopping new drivers into the cabinet.

Assuming the cabinet hole issue is (neatly) dealt with, anybody who thinks they have found a modern drop-in replacement for the very unique original AR tweeter and its associated response characteristics, *without* crossover adjustments, is kidding themselves. I'm not saying whatever folks are happy with sounds bad, it is simply that it is most likely not even close to being the "restoration" many forum members desire.

As I have said before, I'm no fan of the AB Tech tweeter (especially its cost), but it is the one many folks have attempted to use, it is the only one "officially" marketed as a replacement, it fits the cabinet hole beautifully, Ken Kantor was willing to do some research on it for us, and our own Frank M. has a s**tload of 'em that are in danger of becoming refrigerator magnets....

....AND we are all Frank's friends :-)!

Roy

[frankmarsi]

9-13-07

“”””As I have said before, I'm no fan of the AB Tech tweeter (especially its cost), but it is the one many folks have attempted to use, it is the only one "officially" marketed as a replacement, it fits the cabinet hole beautifully, Ken Kantor was willing to do some research on it for us, and our own Frank M. has a s**tload of 'em that are in danger of becoming refrigerator magnets....

....AND we are all Frank's friends !

Roy””””

Well everyone I’m the ‘short-timer’ now, why with Roy back and Johnny the “O” and others back in the coral I’ll be sitt’in pretty once I get my AB tweets in, yeah! I mean “OUH-YEAH!” (like Randy M M Savage would say).

And Roy this thing about refrigerator decorations isn’t far off the mark, although I was ‘last resort thinking’ I’d sell the buggers. Now I’ll just be in a ‘holding-pattern’ till things get worked out. We’re waiting for what did you say? I’m here all rear’in to go, somebody hold me back. I’m happy and I’m peppy and burst’in with love! Somebody throw me a grill cloth. Please help me lower my resistance so as I can increase my inductance and capacitance---OUH YEAH!

And now for some more of my usual inane dialog, as long as we’re not talk’in about stick’in my tweeters in the holes and talking shop, we got time.

Friends , you say friends? I don’t know what you’re talking ‘bout here either. I wanted to be one of those ‘lone wolf’ types (like you see on those other less dedicated sites) but, I just can’t help but feel’in the ‘ole almost ‘club-member’ attitude that’s exhibited on this forum and I just wanna hug everyone and maybe even collectively cry about our almost bordering on insanity; love of a vintage speaker, but I guess I’m still liv’in in pre- WoodStock times. And as far as this other guy, what’s his name Ken Cantore’, he’s “I-trallan”, right, isn’t he, he sings doesn’t he? I tink I saw him today ‘round rush hour, walking along Herald Square in Manhattan, where it’s easy to spot a face, ya know what I mean? He had this strange but almost familiar looking hat on, why it was almost,….. well it almost resembled a inverted speaker basket. As he came closer and as he passed me, I noticed he was wearing the number 303 emblazoned on what seemed like a narrow blanket draped across his shoulder with a couple of large holes in it and it was about one inch thick, it was dark charcoal grey. His wood grained walnut colored vinyl shirt had two horizontal pieces of paper attached to the back that said ‘inspected by:’ on it.

If I was feel’in my oats, I would’ve, well, I would’ve sworn his outfit resembled a actual speaker cabinet, well……except, except with shoes. I really don’t know, maybe it wasn’t him I’m not sure what his face looks like but the clothes kinda matched what I would imagine he dresses like. Anywaz, I took the chance and through an egg at his hat, I had a few in my pockets, just in case. It bounced off the foam surround and then stuck to the ceramic magnet. The egg white poured down the front like that ‘secret coating’ used on old original foam surrounds. Good thing I was wearing a ‘Haz-Mat’ suit, in a very bright ‘spring-time’ color.

I hurried into the crowd to conceal myself and looked back real fast, I noticed people were actually helping him and asking him if he worked for a speaker company- strange, real strange I tell ya! He almost seemed to cause a stir of happiness amongst the people as he handed out little vials of ferro-fluid. Don’t you guys worry, I’ll get to the bottom of this tomorrow. As any good criminal would, I’m going back to the seen of the crime, so stay tuned. “Kenny Cantore the Singer” right? Well, he won’t be gett’in away from me! I don’t care how much you boys try and stop me!

FM

[dynaco_dan]

Hi Frank;

Ever do standup, Frank?

[kkantor]

Since you are what you eat, I'm part Italian. I just haven't figured out which part.

-k

[RoyC]

>Patience Frank, Roy has been away since Friday. His last word

>was that he likes very much the sound of Ken's design with the

>0.070 mH coil across the AB Tech tweeters. (He didn't

>initally, then discovered he wired the coil incorrectly!)

John is correct. I had placed the .07 mh inductor across the tweeter and the level control, instead of just the tweeter. My initial quibbles had centered around not being able to achieve a satisfactory balance, and that turned out to be the primary reason.

The bottom line is that Ken's recommended .07 mh coil across the ABT tweeter works well in the 3a, in my opinion.

When using l-pads instead of pots, I found a smaller off-the-shelf .05 mh inductor could be used, up to the .07 mh inductor. The use of l-pads provided higher output from both the tweeter and midrange. They also provided more useful level control settings, which I personally found very desirable with the new tweeter. It probably moves the sound a bit more toward the character of the AR-11, however.

Attached are 3 simple AR-3a crossover drawings showing the placement of the new inductor with pots and l-pads, as well as the original configuration for the sake of comparison. Note the tweeter polarity is now reversed compared to the original.

Roy

[kkantor]

Hi...

Perhaps the following report will be useful:

http://www.kenkantor.com/xfer/3aHR_draft_017.pdf

It's not for circulation yet, but it will be. (I'm totally buried with new venture deadlines, so am behind my hoped-for schedule for completing this. Sorry, all...)

The AR 3/4" dome has several characteristics that are hard to duplicate with generally available modern drivers. Of note is its spectacular off-axis performance over the top octave. The AB Tech replacement is better than most alternatives in this regard. One can debate the audible advantages/disadvantages of dispersion at 15 KHz, of course. But, if you want it, the AB Tech is closer to the originals than you are likely to find elsewhere.

-k

www.kenkantor.com

[dynaco_dan]

Hi Ken;

Thank you very much for the time and effort you put into this research for us.

Most of this is over my head but then again, I am a short guy.

There is light at the end of the tunnel for a solution for the AR 3/4" tweeter replacements for some members.

You done a great job, Ken, thank you.

[johnieo]

Please note that there is a label error in the "Equivalent resistances" table given in the lower left-hand side of page 5 of the draft report. The 15-Ohm and 8-Ohm labels are reversed.

The first "-1" in the drawing below should be in left not center column.

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/dc/user_files/2713.jpg

[Guest matty g]

>Attached are 3 simple AR-3a crossover drawings showing the

>placement of the new inductor with pots and l-pads, as well as

>the original configuration for the sake of comparison. Note

>the tweeter polarity is now reversed compared to the

>original.

>

>Roy

Hi -

A huge thank you to everyone who put in so much time, effort and money to get this project together. This is a major step forward in the preservation of our beloved AR loudspeaker systems, and hopefully there will be fewer "Frankenstien" systems out there...I know I've created a few monsters over the years!

I was wondering about the effect of tweeter phase reversal on the diagram that Roy posted. Is this to cancel a phase overlap, is it based on sonic preference or is there more science behind it? I'm just curious as I didn't see any mention of it in Ken's report.

Thanks again for your eforts - they will be appreciated for years to come by many people.

Matt

[stan461]

Then instead of "plopping" drivers (and I don't know if that's what was done with the SEAS I purchased) or reworking the entire contents of the AR3a, and taking into consideration that this driver is almost irreplaceable anyway, then the question becomes (and it's probably been raised before) is "Is the repair/rebuilding of an AR3a tweeter so difficult that it's not even to be taken into consideration?"

There was an article in Speaker Builder Magazine which ran over the course of 5 or 6 issues went through the process of "restoring" a pair of AR3a speakers.

Anyone who read these articles knows that the author attempted to "improve" the drivers. The finished product may or may not sound better. I don't know, I've never heard them.

The point here is that he was able to completely disassemble and then re-assemble all three drivers and get the system to work again. Once again, I am fully aware "not to original specs" but physically the rebuilding of a tweeter is humanly possible.

All constructive thoughts on this will be appreciated.

In the meantime, I'm going to get those articles off my bookshelf and re-read them. I've peaked my own curiosity.

With all due respect to myself, I get lazy.

What I should be doing is:

1) Read those articles on rebuilding the AR3a

2) Educate myself with respect to crossovers

3) Quit looking for the silver bullet from someone else

Bottom line: Get up off my butt and do it myself.

Now please excuse me, I have a lot of homework to do.