Anyone see these?

[genek]

My impression was that the AR-3a variants that came after the classic models were not an evolution, but projects of distributors who apparently believed the 3a had been discontinued before its market had dried up and that subsequent US models didn't satisfactorily meet the demand they were seeing.

My fantasy is a lot of dealers in various places around the world trying to sell AR-11 and AR-58 models and being badgered by would-be buyers hoping that there were still unsold 3as to be found in the back of some AR warehouse.

[Andre_Db66]

Developers and sales usually dont walk the same tread...

 

[genek]

And neither get to do what they want without someone telling them what to develop or sell.

[Andre_Db66]

True... those were the pioneering days.

[genek]

AR's pioneering days were from the founding of the company in 1954 until its sale to Teledyne in 1967. Once a company goes from being privately held with a single majority owner to a corporate entity, every new idea has to survive vetting by some accountant.

[ReliaBill Engineer]

On 6/25/2024 at 2:31 PM, RoyC said:

Parallel inductors, not resistors, were used with the new tweeters to change the nature of the crossover to match that of the original mechanical roll-off properties of the early tweeters by decreasing/shaping the new tweeter's stronger contribution to the mid frequencies.

Not at all what I was talking about. I’m talking about what this thread is about, using non-AR tweeters *with* the original AR crossover. A replacement tweeter, if you will. I’m not talking about, never mentioned, contouring networks to attempt to imitate a classic AR tweeter ‘s unique response using a new tweeter. So of course, I never mentioned a parallel inductor. 

To use the original AR XO and achieve the same XO frequency, the new tweeter under test must at least present a similar impedence curve to the original XO that the original tweeter presented. That’s all I was saying. The new tweeter will present its own sound; no contouring network.

[Andre_Db66]

I do not hear any talk of first hand experience with these particular vc. Let alone FR measurements and experimenting, using professional tools. It was mentioned someone in the past did this, but were they actually the same vc?

100% true emulation of ar tweeters may not be possible in the end, but a satisfying result could be achievable. The original ar tweeter also have been changed and adapted more than once in the relevant past. At least 4 times...(along with the xo if necessary)

Words coming from a professional here actually were that the paper domes are not of this age anymore and were underachievers in the first place. Lots of people who are diehard ar3 aficionados are listening to a tweeter that also has entirely different characteristics. If i am not wrong they were phenolic? Yes, restoring a 3a speaker to the likes of the manual you will need all out original parts. They are however increasingly harder to come by and leaves room for acceptable alternatives. It is not like money isnt an issue to all people. There are those who want goods seat at a fair price...

 

[genek]

2 hours ago, ReliaBill Engineer said:

Not at all what I was talking about. I’m talking about what this thread is about, using non-AR tweeters *with* the original AR crossover.

That has never been a requirement, even when discussions are not in Mods and Tweaks. Most of the go-to recommended replacements over the years have required some sort of crossover mod, even if it's just different settings on the level controls, to replicate original sound as closely as possible.

[Andre_Db66]

To elaborate more on the story of the craigslist lst. Apparantly this man had a set and was down in the dumps with broken tweeters. He paid a lot of money but went home content with the added value.

I am only concerned with the fact that at the price he paid he almost could have gone with midwest replacement. So i find that dubious, understating my opinion. Still, his lst would have lost all value had he placed HiVi tweeters...

[ReliaBill Engineer]

15 hours ago, genek said:

That has never been a requirement, even when discussions are not in Mods and Tweaks. Most of the go-to recommended replacements over the years have required some sort of crossover mod, even if it's just different settings on the level controls, to replicate original sound as closely as possible.

Again, not what I’m talking about. You seem to be stuck on contouring a new tweeter to sound like an old AR tweeter. “Recommended replacement”  by whom? Those that want to mimic the sound of an original AR driver? Not what I’ve been talking about.

What I’m referring to is adjusting a new driver to crossover at the appropriate frequency as the original, whether a mid-tweet with the woofer (AR-2ax), the tweeter with the woofer (AR-4X), or super tweeter with the mid-tweet (AR-2ax). The new driver under test will maintain its own signature sound. But it will still have a similar slope of frequency cutoff to blend harmoniously with the original woofer/mid-tweet.

And again, it’s just an adjustment to allow me to hear what the new driver sounds like when mounted with, and blended with the sound of original AR drivers and original XO frequencies. And yes, I’m also including the level pot as a XO element; as a voltage divider, it does alter the driver Impedence between 0% and 100% setting as seen from the XO cap, unlike an L-pad.

Entirely appropriate for discussion here under Mods and Tweaks; but not under original AR discussions.

[genek]

A discussion of how to get a replacement driver to cross at the original frequency is probably equally applicable to "original sound" and mod/tweak objectives.

[ReliaBill Engineer]

I’ve posted YT vids. While not “perfect”, they give a good representation. The 2” hard dome mid-tweet, the PRT and modified PRT, and the 2” paper cone tweets are examples of where I’ve gotten them to play seamlessly with the AR original drivers. Very smooth and detailed. I’ve also tried these various drivers without adjusting the combined DCR+impedance curves; the result was a train wreck.
 

The only contouring I’ve done is with the 2” hard dome mid-tweet for the 2ax. There, I used a series inductor to gently roll off the peak at 13 kHz. Without it, it sounds “bright” on some recordings. With it, it’s smooth and very complimentary to the 1-3/8” phenolic dome AR “super tweeter”. It sounds identical to the unmodified AR-2ax, except much better definition in the mids, much smoother and clearer treble, no brash and “honking” mids, and much better dispersion off-axis than the original paper cone mid-tweets. So good, in fact, I’ll probably never use the original paper cone mid-tweets again. Those are fatiguing and highly color the sound; no amount of level adjustments work. High setting, better treble; but more honking and abrasive mids. Lower setting, and the treble gets lost. Higher super-tweet setting, more treble, but less detail in the mids. “Numb”.

[Andre_Db66]

But why talk about oem tweeters from another brand as replacements in a thread about repairing original ar tweeters with alternative vc?

I only am so actively replying because i have done so succesfully and want to share some of that useful experience, regardless if i measured it or not. It is workable and i am only pleading for pros to step up and help figuring out what would be required to obtain a community accepted result.

What other tweeters do is not relevant to me. I dont think many people care for that either as it obviously rapes the originality of the ar speakers too much. HiVi may be a last resort to some.

I have built the rogers ls3/5a from scratch using only a b110 woofer and a Philips tweeter. I produced an xo with Lpad for it and it sounds great. I have the original Rogers and can make an A/B comparison.

But... do you think these replicas might be worth anything to others? I think not.

[ReliaBill Engineer]

Because using other VCs will get you into the exact issues I spoke of. That’s why I mentioned it. For example, most all of the Chinese VCs are in 2 flavors: 4 or 8 ohm. Neither of which are going to exactly match original AR VCs for their tweeters. Unless you redesign the crossover. Then you’ve strayed from the original AR design two-fold.

[Andre_Db66]

Exactly the reason this thread ended up in this section.

The untrained eye still perceives an original tweeter and then hopefully sonically it became an acceptable swapout.

This thread however, wasnt about using other tweeters... or cables or amplifier preferences.

Perhaps soon i will be able to give an outcome of tweaking an AR3a with these vc tweeters. I have decided the ar5 will remain original.

Perhaps someone else may chime in but until then i rest my case.

Cheers

[ReliaBill Engineer]

52 minutes ago, Andre_Db66 said:

This thread however, wasnt about using other tweeters... or cables or amplifier preferences.

Yes it is. First post.

[genek]

1 hour ago, Andre_Db66 said:

The untrained eye still perceives an original tweeter and then hopefully sonically it became an acceptable swapout.

In many cases the untrained eye will see the original tweeter and the mind will convince the untrained ear that it is an acceptable swap out. This is why we nag people who think they've achieved original or improved sound about measurements.

Yes, we do that in Mods and Tweaks, too.

[Aadams]

1 hour ago, Andre_Db66 said:

Perhaps soon i will be able to give an outcome of tweaking an AR3a with these vc tweeters. I have decided the ar5 will remain original.

If your AR5 tweeter is an untouched original it is not a good reference standard.   Rebuilt original tweeters sound nothing like worn out originals.  Rebuilt originals restore all the output you are missing, which is substantial, without encroaching on the midrange.  I am not saying you should purchase rebuilt tweeters, just that your tired AR5 tweeters are not the correct measuring standard.   

I listen to 3as with rebuilt original tweeters and 9s almost everyday on the same source.  They sound practically identical above 5k, which is significant considering the 9 mid crossover point is 7000hz.

The sound of the original tweeter in the AR11 restored by your friend might serve as a better reference point.

[Andre_Db66]

At this point in time i have my three sets connected to identical separate yamahas. As a whole they sound marvellous and my biggest nerving issue is the pots in 2 pairs. I am lucky enough to have all 9 drivers working well. Although i have a set of spare tweeters, i would rather use the tonegen softdome tweeters as a reference point to match these rebuilt tweeters.

The ar5 already have 2 tweaked tweeters but 1 is not 100%, possibly rubbing. I have only 1 spare dome 8R. If i manage to correct this tweeter i can use the spares to update. If it fails it would be wiser to return the original spares to the ar5.

In case i manage to update both ar5 tweeters, then i could use the spares to convert to updated tweeters for a set of ar3a. If that is succesfull i can continue with the second set in another pair of 3a impr.

All this will convert all my 3a speakers to softdome tweeters. Then tweaking of the xo will likely be next to produce best matchi g. I dare to undertake this experiment because i know in the end they will still sell. If i implement any other tweeter, even a HiVi Q1R i will never get rid of them if i would want to sell. I have 7 pairs of AR speakers. Once owning approximately 30 speaker pairs starts feeling like a burden and i dare to make definitive choices i shall enrich craigslist locally. Until then part of my fullfillment is listening to all of them and tweaking some. I guess the fact tweaking is even possible with AR, makes it a nice challenge. Only wish i got more feedback from someone who is actually trying out the same and making the required notes and measurements. Just my 2 cents

I guess it is what it is...

I will add more to this thread if i feel i made reasonably objective advancements. If anybody walks the same road, dont hold back please. Any different practical experience input is more than welcome.

[genek]

I think the problem you're having with finding people willing to tinker with new parts is that our members are mostly in the US, where we have relatively easy and affordable access to rebuilders like Chris or the reproductions from MW Audio. So people reworking speakers for resale are going to go with parts that already have established credentials on sites like this one or Audiokarma and your pool of tinkerers is limited to people who do it just for the fun of doing it.

[Andre_Db66]

3 hours ago, ReliaBill Engineer said:

Yes it is. First post.

How so...? If using a vc other than oem in an original tweeter is another tweeter then i am confused. You are saying any replacement will do, disregarding fitting issues, brand, just as long as it measures the same. Up to the point where you place a tweeter on top of a cabinet with wires sticking out out behind the original. I do not find that an option. No add on external super tweeter will do for me combined with a classic. Like people who think it is necessary to place a super tweeter on top of a classic Tannoy. That is not for me. Someone who does that clearly is not satisfied with the classic at hand, this is simply how it sounds.

The issue is to fix the tweeter, preferably not altering the initial behaviour too much and if so, only in a postive way. Leaving the structure of the cabinet alone. That is why i oppose the HiVi solution even if the sonical result is accepted widespread.

I have seen plenty botched AR speakers on craigslist with different mids, woofers or tweeters. It is rape and doesnt sell, only at the value of the remainder drivers left alone in the cabinet. I for one let them pass. I could however be fooled if a tweeter has the fit and markings of AR on them. If they sound good i would be foolish enough to buy them...

[Andre_Db66]

5 minutes ago, genek said:

I think the problem you're having with finding people willing to tinker with new parts is that our members are mostly in the US, where we have relatively easy and affordable access to rebuilders like Chris or the reproductions from MW Audio. So people reworking speakers for resale are going to go with parts that already have established credentials on sites like this one or Audiokarma and your pool of tinkerers is limited to people who do it just for the fun of doing it.

Still my beckoning is to them...

I know there are plenty EU users on CSP. Besides that, i guess you have a good point

PS

I mentioned the Pro here who does this kind of stuff for a living... there is a demand is all i am saying

[genek]

It would be great if you could persuade him to join up.

Especially if he has measurements of his work. 😆

[Andre_Db66]

Hammersmiths do not reveal their secrets...

He is quite outspoken and did not measure it because he is convinced there are no fair data to compare to...

In his his opinion it has to sound good and the customer is best judge. That is the attitude in a nutshell. He is familiar with the forum but stays away from it because of a resentful purist attitude. That is a free translation of his words.

I guess across the pond you guys have a different angle, i can underatand that. Anything purchased in the US is simply high cost solution. We have a very large DIY community in Holland and common sense regarding wallet issues(money).

I cannot fathom however someone paying top dollar for the repair when for a little extra good replacements are available in the states.

I build speakers, tube amps, refurbish and modify cd players, refurbish ss amps. Why would i not take on the challenge of the tweeters when i make the saving of cash priority.

I would love to buy a nelson pass kit for example. Unfortunately it is not a cheap kit especially after shipping and taxes. Perhaps i will though... too big a temptation.

[genek]

7 minutes ago, Andre_Db66 said:

I cannot fathom however someone paying top dollar for the repair when for a little extra good replacements are available in the states.

Here in the US, the replacements probably cost the same or less than rebuilds. The only explanation I can think of for this is our lack of a VAT.