Anyone see these?

[frankmarsi]

Wondering if these have potential, looks like they might. Offered in 4 & 8 Ohms and different sizes.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/124812010129?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D1110025%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.COMPOSITELISTINGS%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20220405142716%26meid%3D268192306d8949e88df525108cd4e90d%26pid%3D101506%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D25%26sd%3D395249587115%26itm%3D124812010129%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D4481478%26algv%3DAlgoIndex5SimRanker%26brand%3DUnbranded&_trksid=p4481478.c101506.m1851

 

 

[dxho]

Some discussion in Audiokarma that I cannot find now. I believe it
was Christian Vorius who finally commented he had tried them and
they do not sound like the originals.

[RoyC]

The original AR tweeter of this type used in the AR-3, 2a, and early 2ax has a very low impedance. DCR is below 2 ohms. The assembly in the listing is described as having an 8 ohm impedance.

Roy

[frankmarsi]

Roy, check again, the link I posted indicates 4 Ohms. I wouldn't be surprised that if asked, the vendor would use less winds and offer 2.5 Ohms or so.

If that dome was too soft, with a thin coating of an appropriate substance, it could be hardened. It may be worth a shot if some one is eager enough to do the foot work and research. If pursued, this could possibly become a new source and lead to endless possibilities.

FM

[ReliaBill Engineer]

I’ve used many such domes for various repairs of tweeters. While they may “fit” the tweeter face plates and VC gaps, don’t expect them to sound like what they are replacing. More goes into a dome tweeter design and performance than just a VC and dome shape. 
 

The only real success story I have is using some China-made domes to replace the SL2000 tweeter domes made in the 1980s by Polk. But then, those Polk soft Mylar domes had a pretty bad FR issue. 

[ReliaBill Engineer]

3 hours ago, frankmarsi said:

Roy, check again, the link I posted indicates 4 Ohms. I wouldn't be surprised that if asked, the vendor would use less winds and offer 2.5 Ohms or so.

If that dome was too soft, with a thin coating of an appropriate substance, it could be hardened. It may be worth a shot if some one is eager enough to do the foot work and research. If pursued, this could possibly become a new source and lead to endless possibilities.

FM

The vender sells, doesn’t manufacture. They are made in China. Good luck getting the Chinese to custom manufacture 2 or 4 domes for you, at 2 ohms DCR .

 

[RoyC]

3 hours ago, frankmarsi said:

Roy, check again, the link I posted indicates 4 Ohms. I wouldn't be surprised that if asked, the vendor would use less winds and offer 2.5 Ohms or so.

If that dome was too soft, with a thin coating of an appropriate substance, it could be hardened. It may be worth a shot if some one is eager enough to do the foot work and research. If pursued, this could possibly become a new source and lead to endless possibilities.

FM

Oops, sorry Frank...for some reason I thought you were referring to the replacement for the low impedance orange dome used in the models I mentioned above. 

Roy

[ReliaBill Engineer]

I’ve had very good results with these. Different from soft silk domes. They are available in various diameters and DCR, 4 and 8 ohm.

[Andre_Db66]

0 replies.... TY

[Andre_Db66]

.....and yes, they are better than the old tired AR tweeters, but, disputed by purists.

As i am writing this, i am enjoying wonderful highs on my AR5's

It almost takes getting used to the dull sound again of the AR3a afterwards, although having 6 tweeters, 6 mids and 3 woofers does balance things out pretty well. 😁

[Andre_Db66]

On 4/26/2024 at 9:19 PM, ReliaBill Engineer said:

I’ve used many such domes for various repairs of tweeters. While they may “fit” the tweeter face plates and VC gaps, don’t expect them to sound like what they are replacing. More goes into a dome tweeter design and performance than just a VC and dome shape. 
 

The only real success story I have is using some China-made domes to replace the SL2000 tweeter domes made in the 1980s by Polk. But then, those Polk soft Mylar domes had a pretty bad FR issue. 

Unless you are very young, autistic and have a hearing abnormality of perhaps 30k or more, (there are people like that), i doubt you will actually perceive it as sounding bad. I have been advised this china soft dome by total speaker repair here in Holland, claiming that is what he always uses to keep originality and lifting the quality of high frequencies in AR speakers. I fully agree with this, as i find paying 80$ p tweeter ex shipping completely absurd for speakers costing 400$ a pair when i could not point out the contrary blindfolded...

The suspension in AR tweeters is old and stuck diminishing the perfomance severely.

It is the best one can do and this forum is all about repairing or refurbishing...

In the event of 4R or 8R not being appropriate, one can always use resistors or inductors like the HiVi tweak.

Rest my case and will enjoy the music again... 😁

[frankmarsi]

@Andre_D , Okay, seemingly a positive possibility here. Can you tell us more about the installation?

You mention using resistors however, I don't see them externally on your AR-5's face, are they part of the cross-over in the cabinet, values?

Can you inform the group what the sound quality is like, perhaps a short video?  Can you elaborate a bit on comparisons while testing?

Of course I'm curious, half a century's worth of curiosity has not been easy to shake loose. My first post on this site 20 years ago I was asking about what members were using for tweeters assuming they had the same condition I was dealing with.

I learned at an early age to always be on the look-out for tweeters. It's what I do since I've committed to the great sound and ability of the two other two drivers, the AR midrange and 12 inch woofers.

FM

 

 

 

 

[RoyC]

7 hours ago, Andre_Db66 said:

In the event of 4R or 8R not being appropriate, one can always use resistors or inductors like the HiVi tweak.

That comment pertained only to the orange dome AR tweeter. The one you used is available in 4 and 8 ohms, and can be made to work well as a replacement for the smaller black dome AR tweeter.

[Andre_Db66]

In the past months while being a member and frequent visitor here i learned a lot, and thanks to the rudimentary explanation from Roy about XO's in general have been able to save a lot of AR speakers...

Not only AR has been salvaged but also very cherished Beovox K series with NOS Peerless drivers which i bought all over the world, ie tweeters from Italy, mids from Canada and woofers from Switzerland. The original drivers and XO being 3.2R i had a serious problem as all the NOS drivers were 8R. I had already found NOS Philips XO's in kit form but the frequencies were off...

Also i have Philips 12 inch broadband open baffle speakers i designed combined with JBL 15 bass drivers and Peerless tweeters. I was using 3 amps and electronic XO.

With my newly acquired knowledge and DIY XO calculator i wound inductors for the JBL, and the Philips XO, found the correct capacitors with some trial and error and now have the sweetest sound, judged not by apparatus but simply by ear and playing music. I tend to say, if it is tiring something is off. I can listen to these sets for hours.

Same rule of thumb is apllied to the AR tweeters. I have not measured anything so cannot elaborate on that. However, the original tired tweeters i tend to have tge pot wide open and the mid tamed around the middle or even less depending on tweeter performance. Now after installing these cheap(3$) VC's i can assure you that the balance in the sound is back. Upon taste you can now exagerate the amount of mid and high to your taste and it is not harsh or anything, it is spot on to me. The boomy bass of the 12 inch or even the 10 in AR5 is accompanied by the exactly the correct amount of treble. On the paper on the back it reads that opening the pots up gives most natural sound... this is true again.

Installation i was actually only being pragmatic. I did not think it was a good idea to have the lead wires on the metal faceplate so i first covered the entire faceplate with black adhesive plastic from automotive. Friend if my wirked in a factory similiar to 3M adhesive plastics. I the cut out th gap right to the edge with a hobby knife. Applied some glue, same i used for the refoam job to VC and edge of the gap. Waited a bit and stuck it on, figuring it would be a 3$ loss if i did not get it centered right. Before mentioned shop charges 80$ for this experiment btw. Go figure the cost for the LST2. Sold btw... but that is how i ran into the idea that if professionals are doing this, why cant i?

A friend of mine had salvaged his AR11 tweeter, speakers which i have encouraged him to fix, refoam etc. He bought them new back then and is enjoying them again now everyday. He is 76 and has a small pension so these absurd costs were out of the question. I am happy for him and very greatful that he applied this method. I otoh unfortunately have 6 HiVi tweeters new in their boxes which never will be used for 180$... 🤔 so you live and learn, my motto, always!

[ReliaBill Engineer]

I didn’t have to replace the tweeters in my 1965 2ax’s to get full tweeter FR and output. I redesigned the tweeter surround. The magnets are VERY powerful, so I knew greater output was possible from these 2.3 ohm (2.3R) voice coils. AR tied the domes down, inside and outside of the domes, to RESTRICT output. 
 

By redesigning the surround, I kept the AR sound and parts, and just made it more “capable”. The level pots allow one to tailor the tweeters’ output from zero to too much. It’s amazing to hear just how good the AR tweeters are, when they are allowed to produce reasonable output!

So my AR’s don’t suffer from restricted and “soft” tweeter output. Neither my 2ax’s nor my 4x’s. A simple twist of the level pots allows original AR sound, or a modern AR sound. Just up to your tastes. 
 

[frankmarsi]

Roy, are you stating these little domes are appropriate and usable, cause right now, it’s still unclear.

 

At the asking price of these domes, I’m almost certain many here would venture into experimentation rather quickly. Blown tweeter veterans surely have one or two inoperable units sitting around collecting dust and would likely take the plunge to experiment as the cost won’t hold many back from doing so.

The other question which has still not been answered is their sound-quality. Is their sound and output comparable to the AR tweeters or maybe other brands? Another question that concerns me is power-handling ability as that alone for me would be a determining factor to plunge into this or wait and watch to see which way the wind is blowing.

I realize if these tweeters are a good option, it may not please those who rebuild as an enterprising venture but, how many are actually doing that?   I’m aware of only a couple who are brave enough to go to that extent of voice-coil winding, etc.

With the the thin dome offered, experimentation with varied coatings as I mentioned earlier is a possible route to consider also. Suspensions can be worked out also as experimentation indicates, the same with impedance matching.

Then there’s the possibility that I’m completely incorrect about this whole situation and that this post will fade into obscurity. However, if there’s a glimmer of hope many will be happy.

So, as Klaatu said to Patricia O’Neil and the world:  “the decision rests with you”……….Klaatu, barada nikto"

 

FM

[ReliaBill Engineer]

Adding anything to the tweeter dome material will change its mass. Increased mass of tweeter domes is most often detrimental to the dome’s ability to reproduce high frequencies. So yeah, you can add some dope or “coating” of some kind to a tweeter dome….but are you really going to improve it? Change it, yes. But improve it? Perhaps not. Likely not.

[Andre_Db66]

2 hours ago, ReliaBill Engineer said:

I didn’t have to replace the tweeters in my 1965 2ax’s to get full tweeter FR and output. I redesigned the tweeter surround. The magnets are VERY powerful, so I knew greater output was possible from these 2.3 ohm (2.3R) voice coils. AR tied the domes down, inside and outside of the domes, to RESTRICT output. 
 

By redesigning the surround, I kept the AR sound and parts, and just made it more “capable”. The level pots allow one to tailor the tweeters’ output from zero to too much. It’s amazing to hear just how good the AR tweeters are, when they are allowed to produce reasonable output!

So my AR’s don’t suffer from restricted and “soft” tweeter output. Neither my 2ax’s nor my 4x’s. A simple twist of the level pots allows original AR sound, or a modern AR sound. Just up to your tastes. 
 

Nice work!

I tried multiple times to extract the original voice coil to achieve a similar result as you, but only ended up destroying the dome. I stopped trying after the 3rd attempt. Now i rip the old one out and find the result with the soft dome something i can live with. There are more aspects that define an AR speaker than just the dome material or VC. If the HiVi can achieve a similar acceptable satisfying result, yet fails to fit properly in the cavity of the cabinet, i find your or my solution a much better compromise.

I understand very well what you mean with your output explanation, and i suppose you alter the suspension because the old suspension has aged too much, therefore reducing output and showing less potential even with pots open...  I have the same now, there is no absolute need to open up the pot completely, there is more than enough dynamics available.

[Andre_Db66]

2 hours ago, frankmarsi said:

Roy, are you stating these little domes are appropriate and usable, cause right now, it’s still unclear.

 

At the asking price of these domes, I’m almost certain many here would venture into experimentation rather quickly. Blown tweeter veterans surely have one or two inoperable units sitting around collecting dust and would likely take the plunge to experiment as the cost won’t hold many back from doing so.

The other question which has still not been answered is their sound-quality. Is their sound and output comparable to the AR tweeters or maybe other brands? Another question that concerns me is power-handling ability as that alone for me would be a determining factor to plunge into this or wait and watch to see which way the wind is blowing.

I realize if these tweeters are a good option, it may not please those who rebuild as an enterprising venture but, how many are actually doing that?   I’m aware of only a couple who are brave enough to go to that extent of voice-coil winding, etc.

With the the thin dome offered, experimentation with varied coatings as I mentioned earlier is a possible route to consider also. Suspensions can be worked out also as experimentation indicates, the same with impedance matching.

Then there’s the possibility that I’m completely incorrect about this whole situation and that this post will fade into obscurity. However, if there’s a glimmer of hope many will be happy.

So, as Klaatu said to Patricia O’Neil and the world:  “the decision rests with you”……….Klaatu, barada nikto"

 

FM

For the love of.... Frank,

Just spend the 16 bucks on 6 and spend an afternoon reviving a set of busted tweeters and find out if you like it or not. How can somebody else ever be the judge of that other than your own ears...

😁

YES! This solution is the answer to all those collecting dust. HiVi was a nice advice were it not that those drivers do not fit in the cabinet and on average the speakers do not sell anymore because anybody can see it has been replaced which makes it a cheap solution. Do my AR5 speakers or AR2ax look that way at first and second glance? I dont think so. They have the original fit and sound fabulous when giving a demonstration.

(I am someone who never ever wants china products. These VC has been the first product EVER that i bought from alixpress, beside PSvane tubes... but that is not ali, however they are chinese unfortunately)

My friend is the living proof. His AR11 sat in his sons garage for 10 years and i convinced him to refoam and he informed me of the VC deal. He is now a happy man of 76 on a budget listening to his all time favorites again. He bought a set or AR7 for surround speakers to accompany them...

[Andre_Db66]

Please do not read an angry intonation, rather encouragement...

I guess i am more pragmatic than the average Joe, with no degrees and not having finished high school, yet doing revision of CD players, amplifiers, speakers, computers and even building tube amplifiers and tube pre amplifiers. I know curiosity killed the cat, but it also has 9 lives...

I think in general it is great to revive quality products rather than contributing to our consumption society. Nowadays stuff is even designed to break down after x amount of service life. Crazy...

[RoyC]

4 hours ago, frankmarsi said:

...Roy, are you stating these little domes are appropriate and usable, cause right now, it’s still unclear.

FM

Hey Frank,

These domes have actually been around for quite some time. The output is very strong primarily due to a very compliant cloth roll suspension. The results are more like the AR-11 tweeter or Midwest replacement tweeter than the original 3a type with the foam suspension. If you are looking to "build" a close replacement for the 3a/LST or 2ax/5/LST-2 type of tweeter this isn't it unless it is modified, or a crossover tweak similar to that used with the HiVi tweeter is implemented.

As always, these discussions are a mix of subjective impressions and many variables, so the above is not meant to criticize anybody's personal preference.

Roy

[Andre_Db66]

So a smaller value cap and start with say .05 mH inductor?

Next week i will buy a second set of AR5 EU version 2000 range serial # with hopefully alnico woofers. I shall try ro implement this to the ali tweeter through a/b comparison and post my results.

First i will objectively describe the difference without tweaking.

[RoyC]

13 hours ago, Andre_Db66 said:

So a smaller value cap and start with say .05 mH inductor?

.1mh would be a good starting point.

[Andre_Db66]

Noted... thank you.